What's the point of being melee in this game with the current state of PvP

[JackNader]

Except both jugg and marauder have a similar assortment of 10 - 30m attacks. So that logic goes out the window.

 

The resource generation of a jug / marauder "requires" them to stand 4m away from their target. That is what makes them a melee class. They must stand 4m away from their target regardless if they are fighting a 35m ranged target, a 30m ranged target, a 10m ranged target or a 4m target. If they fail to maintain that 4m range, their survivability to damage ratio goes out the window.

 

The argument pushed forward by PloGreen and Zoom stating that PT's must be a melee class because they behave like one when fighting classes with greater range is just as flawed. All they've done is taken a doubled sided coin and picked which face they are holding up as truth. The reality is that PT's behave differently depending on the effective range of their target. The goal is to always maximize your damage to survivability ratio. This is achieved via kiting 4m classes and alternately, closing the gap on classes with greater range.

Edited July 15, 2014 by JackNader

[Raansu]

The resource generation of a jug / marauder "requires" them to stand 4m away from their target. That is what makes them a melee class. They must stand 4m away from their target regardless if they are fighting a 35m ranged target, a 30m ranged target, a 10m ranged target or a 4m target.

 

The argument pushed forward by PloGreen and Zoom stating that PT's must be a melee class because they behave like one when fighting classes with greater range is just as flawed. All they've done is taken a doubled sided coin and picked which face they are holding up as truth. The reality is that PT's behave differently depending on the effective range of their target. The goal is to always maximize your damage to survivability ratio. This is achieved via kiting 4m classes and alternately, closing the gap on classes with greater range.

 

Geez I hope you don't play a VG.

[JackNader]

Geez I hope you don't play a VG.

 

I'm better than you, deal with it.

[Raansu]

I'm better than you, deal with it.

 

Unlikely

[Zoom_VI]

If Powertechs are ranged I would love to hear how you guys explain Operatives and Asssassins

[Raansu]

If Powertechs are ranged I would love to hear how you guys explain Operatives and Asssassins

 

Dem lethality ops are totally ranged yo!

[PloGreen]

If Powertechs are ranged I would love to hear how you guys explain Operatives and Asssassins

 

So far " jacknader" has avoided that one.

 

To me as someone who plays the sorc more than any other class - 10m is effective melee range. The difference between 4m and 10m is a whopping 6m. You do not want to be getting within 10m of any target unless you wish to hard stun (melee range). Within 10m you can be pushed, leapt to, etc etc. So my class must maintain large distance (kite, snare, force speed, root) to be effective. Now a pt does not do that to a sorc does it? He must close the gap, he must use his 4m interupt to stop casts and most of his highest damage abilities come between 4-10m. So that does not make it a ranged class in comparison to my 30m class

 

Now compare that to a pt kiting a jug. That jug can still reach that pt within 6m, he still has the tools to push him and leap to him, a range aoe snare, aoe mezz, obliterate (if not vengeance), choke, force crush etc. That 6m difference is pitiful. Therefore effective melee range is actually 10m (IMO), and it's no where near what anyone would consider a ranged class - they are a hybrid that perform better in melee range, simple as. Up close and personal, is how the are best played.

 

If you think 6m is a hard gap to close on a knight class you should probably quit.

[Tevzz]

I leap, you use hydrolics, I choke you through the hydraulics, ravage you, shove you, leap again and ravage you again, then I pop one of my crapton of cooldowns just because I can and then finish you off.

 

Seriously Veng is probably one of the best specs for tackling PTs.

 

You'll waste exactly 3 seconds of my 10seconds long Hydraulics...your ravage won't even root me lol, if you try to push me through hydraulics I won't even be sent flying away...so unless you wait a nice 10seconds for my hydraulics to be over and eat the dmg like a good boy or pop defensives to diminish it, you can't do any of the above. Granted, if you have an AoE mezz and I'm close enough to be caught in it, you stand a much better chance.

 

Dem lethality ops are totally ranged yo!

 

They're a bit more melee than PT's but they're still nowhere near as melee as a sin/warrior. What do they rely on to deal dmg...Shiv and hidden strike? Not really, they do need those to setup the Cull burst but their core dots and main dmg dealers don't require them to be in melee range at all. Getting a TA or hard stunning the target is the only reason they should be in 4m range after the fight has started...yet, this is all according to my conventions as to what melee range is.

 

So far " jacknader" has avoided that one.

 

To me as someone who plays the sorc more than any other class - 10m is effective melee range. The difference between 4m and 10m is a whopping 6m. You do not want to be getting within 10m of any target unless you wish to hard stun (melee range). Within 10m you can be pushed, leapt to, etc etc. So my class must maintain large distance (kite, snare, force speed, root) to be effective. Now a pt does not do that to a sorc does it? He must close the gap, he must use his 4m interupt to stop casts and most of his highest damage abilities come between 4-10m. So that does not make it a ranged class in comparison to my 30m class

 

Now compare that to a pt kiting a jug. That jug can still reach that pt within 6m, he still has the tools to push him and leap to him, a range aoe snare, aoe mezz, obliterate (if not vengeance), choke, force crush etc. That 6m difference is pitiful. Therefore effective melee range is actually 10m (IMO), and it's no where near what anyone would consider a ranged class - they are a hybrid that perform better in melee range, simple as. Up close and personal, is how the are best played.

 

Sigh...you're bringing up good arguments and totally valid points, but that still doesn't get us rid of the issue as to what exactly melee range is (and I doubt we can all agree on something since everybody brings up their own opinion and points to support it) in the end, this is a pretty subjective debate because we argue based on our own opinions.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Tevzz

[Zoom_VI]

You'll waste exactly 3 seconds of my 10seconds long Hydraulics...your ravage won't even root me lol, if you try to push me through hydraulics I won't even be sent flying away...so unless you wait a nice 10seconds for my hydraulics to be over and eat the dmg like a good boy or pop defensives to diminish it, you can't do any of the above. Granted, if you have an AoE mezz and I'm close enough to be caught in it, you stand a much better chance.

I push you after your hydraulics' end. Because push is ten meter range and you have to stay within ten meters if you plan on doing anything. And once hydraulics ends you can't do jack to keep me off of you. Besides both the Sentinel and Guardian have more than enough DcD to wait out six seconds of hydraulics, while still retaining several DcD to spare.

[Tevzz]

I push you after your hydraulics' end. Because push is ten meter range and you have to stay within ten meters if you plan on doing anything. And once hydraulics ends you can't do jack to keep me off of you. Besides both the Sentinel and Guardian have more than enough DcD to wait out six seconds of hydraulics, while still retaining several DcD to spare.

 

Yes, but once hydraulics ends you'll have taken a crapload of dmg DCD's or not...the best thing you can pop to mitigate dmg is reflect. Heck an AP with explosive fuel and his rockets up is ****** dmg, and thank god Pyro only gets a 6sec Hydraulics because you should know how fast they can wreck somebody, be it a jug or sentinel.

[Raansu]

They're a bit more melee than PT's but they're still nowhere near as melee as a sin/warrior. What do they rely on to deal dmg...Shiv and hidden strike? Not really, they do need those to setup the Cull burst but their core dots and main dmg dealers don't require them to be in melee range at all. Getting a TA or hard stunning the target is the only reason they should be in 4m range after the fight has started...yet, this is all according to my conventions as to what melee range is.

 

If you want to even remotely have consistent burst from cull you WILL be in range to get your TA procs....Unless of course you like being useless by just throwing around your dots and getting fluff damage that kills no one.

 

Look, this game has a weird design of melee classes carrying guns giving them an assortment of 10-30m abilities but at the end of the day they ARE a melee class. They spend the majority of their time in the 4m-10m range, which for this game is MELEE range, end of story.

 

Yes, but once hydraulics ends you'll have taken a crapload of dmg DCD's or not...the best thing you can pop to mitigate dmg is reflect. Heck an AP with explosive fuel and his rockets up is ****** dmg, and thank god Pyro only gets a 6sec Hydraulics because you should know how fast they can wreck somebody, be it a jug or sentinel.

 

Both awe and stasis complete negate hyrdraulics and prevents dps outside of rockets which can be mitigated. The question comes down to do you feel like burning a CC breaker or not. Its not hard to deal with hydraulics as a guardian/sentinel. Of course if both are on CD you might be screwed, but at the end of the day hydraulics is nothing more than annoying to those two classes.

[K_osss]

This thread is comedic gold!

[DarthOvertone]

This game has no point. That's why I eat Schneider's Pretzels and drink several Leinenkugel Summer Shandys while I play.

[Tevzz]

They spend the majority of their time in the 4m-10m range, which for this game is MELEE range, end of story.

 

You're probably gonna think I'm trolling but what I've been trying to say is that there is NO CONVENTION for what melee range is. You can call it melee I can call it ranged but the game doesn't specify it itself. So as I've said earlier we're debating to support our own definition of ranged, which is subjective! There's no fact as to what melee range really is in this game...is it 4m? 10m? We decide what it is for us and argue based upon that, but the thing is that our arguments aren't really worth anything since we're debating a personal point of view without actual facts such as "Melee range is Xmeters" but our own interpretation of what it is.

 

but at the end of the day hydraulics is nothing more than annoying to those two classes

 

This is quite true, but in the cases of PTs (especially Pyro >.>) Mara/Jugg DCDs are still not that much of a nuisance...heck if a mara pops cloak of pain (as most usually do at the start of a fight) and you haven't dotted him up you can just wait it out (unless he's specced Smash, that'll be tougher to wait out). You can stun through UR...the only thing a PT would have to watch out for when it comes to juggs are reflect (but most jugs don't even think of popping it when they see the Thermal Det + Explosive Dart debuffs so they barely make use of it) and ED. But even then...how often have you seen a half-decent Pyro lose to a Sentinel/Jugg? Because tbh I haven't seen that many, except for the ones who manage to get thermal det + rail shot reflected lol

[jedimasterjac]

#SaberReflect. 'Nuff said.

[Raansu]

but the thing is that our arguments aren't really worth anything since we're debating a personal point of view without actual facts such as "Melee range is Xmeters" but our own interpretation of what it is.

 

Except its not a personal point of view. The game is pretty clear about what is defined as melee. In this game melee is 4-10m. Ranged is a class who's ideal distance is 25m-30m....i.e. ranged.

 

Oh and then there is this

 

Advanced Class

Powertech

The best in shielding, defensive tactics, and high-powered flamethrowers combine to make Powertechs impenetrable one-man blockades, getting up close and personal to take down enemies of all sizes.

 

http://www.swtor.com/gamemanual/getting-started/sith-empire-classes

[Tevzz]

Except its not a personal point of view. The game is pretty clear about what is defined as melee. In this game melee is 4-10m. Ranged is a class who's ideal distance is 25m-30m....i.e. ranged.

 

Oh and then there is this

 

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/gamemanual/getting-started/sith-empire-classes

 

Except the 10m range is not melee its mid-range. The ideal distance of a class with 30m range is obviously as far as possible from its opponents in order to eat less dmg while being able to dish out the most, it's a balance between the two. Now tell me, what is the ideal range of a PT when fighting a sentinel/jug/sin? If you say 4m range there's definitely a problem...because you'll eat much more damage (for no reason) if you constantly stay in 4m range instead of going in there just to apply RB or use rocket punch and then backing off, so the optimal range of a PT depends on which classes it goes against.

 

I was waiting for the "close and personal" to come lol, but you seem to have forgotten that PT tanks are described as ranged tanks...what are we supposed to make of that?

 

So please, next time don't quote only the part that supports your point...quote the whole thing, because here is what it says just above:

Tactical Role(s): Ranged Tank, Ranged Damage, Close-Quarters Damage

 

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/bounty-hunter/powertech

Edited July 15, 2014 by Tevzz

[masih_ad_dajjal]

No matter what the range is on melee they are deff worth it and in a fully hypothetical equal match-up end up with same dps as range give or take and bring a bit more group buffs.

 

An allegory: the other day I was grouped with "Goblin"...something (a sin pot5) I am a sorc and I consider myself above average and was 2nd to 4th best dps out of all 16 or 8 depending on WZ/arena in every one we played together...we played about 10 matches together... BUT guess what? Goblin was first every time..even once beating me by almost 500k!!!! and I beat everyone else by about 250k!!!

 

I realize it's just an allegorical story but it's true and imo at least disproves the main premise of this thread

 

PERIOD!

[Shikyo]

There I fixed it for you.

 

Too bad the distance you "choose" to stand from your target doesn't determine whether or not a class is ranged or we'd all have to agree that the sorc is a melee class as the majority of them self root and face tank.

 

Ok so I think you need to take your own advise from the earlier pages. You remember when you stated people just can't admit when they are wrong?

 

Let me try and put some light in a way you may understand.

 

First, here is a fact, stated by bioware from shortly after launch. Yes you can most likely still find it in the dev tracker.

Powertech is a melee archetype class along with operative, assassin, marauder and juggernaut. This means they are designed to operate at close range to their target.

 

While we all know we can google the definition of melee and ranged and find some things a bit wrong with all the classes in this game, as gamers we understand what the devs mean when they state a class is melee or ranged. In fact they spelled it out to us once upon a time.

 

As for your argument about exact meters let me go through as many of the melee archetype classes and see if I can show you the holes in your argument.

 

1. Operatives are almost identical in the amount of sub 4m abilities, 10m, and 30 meter compared to powertech. Are you suggesting operatives are not melee?

2. Assassins have shock, discharge, force lightening, and a knockback that are all 15m or less. Force lightening can be 30 m too! They also have a force pull that is 30 m. Are they not melee?

3. Juggernauts have saber throw and leap that are 30m abilities. They also have force scream, force crush, deadly throw and obliterate that are 15m abilities. I also believe force push and smash are beyond 4 m but don't quote me on that.

4. Marauders have leap and dual saber throw that are 30 m abilities. They then have force crush, force scream, force throw, deadly throw, and obliterate that are 15m range. Again, I believe smash is beyond 4 m as well.

 

So as you can see they all have abilities outside of melee range that are staples to the class performing well. What to all of the above classes have in common? They require close range to be effective which is why they are classified as melee archetypes within the swtor game.

 

As for your PVE example:

The fight your referred to does not trigger because of melee range. It triggers at 6m. 2m outside of melee. The mechanic was designed to be 6m. Yes it was designed to disrupt melee but that's why melee have gap closers. Also, the designed internal cool down on that ability is greater then the cool down of your gap closers. The correct approach to that situation as a melee is not to engage with your gap closer. You run up to it using other abilities, then when triggered you use your gab closer to get back. This removes the disruption and defeats the mechanic. That is how PVE works.

 

Hopefully you can start to understand that how you are approaching this game in general is flawed.

 

Take your own advise, realize you have it wrong, and become better for it.

 

Ps: I do not discredit your belief that powertech is ranged, but those are your beliefs and opinions whereas others have been trying to show you the fact that powertech is a melee class as said and designed by bioware, the creators of this game. It is very possible you have not been playing from launch or followed the dev tracker from launch and formulated your opinion out of ignorance assuming fact. Bioware attempted to make powertech a ranged tank and failed thus revamping it to a melee archetype.

[Zoom_VI]

ugh, having 6 additional meters of range over the warrior class changes nothing. Its like arguing that because a spearman has longer reach than a swordsman therefore the spear isn't a melee weapon. If Pyro was 15-20m range you might have an argument.

[Tevzz]

1. Operatives are almost identical in the amount of sub 4m abilities, 10m, and 30 meter compared to powertech. Are you suggesting operatives are not melee?

2. Assassins have shock, discharge, force lightening, and a knockback that are all 15m or less. Force lightening can be 30 m too! They also have a force pull that is 30 m. Are they not melee?

3. Juggernauts have saber throw and leap that are 30m abilities. They also have force scream, force crush, deadly throw and obliterate that are 15m abilities. I also believe force push and smash are beyond 4 m but don't quote me on that.

4. Marauders have leap and dual saber throw that are 30 m abilities. They then have force crush, force scream, force throw, deadly throw, and obliterate that are 15m range. Again, I believe smash is beyond 4 m as well.

 

You made a nice summary of the ranged abilities of the classes in question but what you're forgetting is that warriors/knights NEED to be in 4m range to generate resources...something that Powertech/sins/operatives don't have to deal with, which doesn't confine them to melee range, on the other hand, in some scenarios staying in 4m range is something you should avoid (aka when fighting a Warrior/Knight). And you might wanna check the range on the marauder, juggernaut, and assassin abilities...the range on those abilities is 10m...

 

The fact is, that the game still considers the roles of Powertechs to be (and I quote from my post above) Ranged Tank, Ranged Damage, Close-Quarter Damage. I've even linked it for you all in case you don't believe me >.>

[Shikyo]

You made a nice summary of the ranged abilities of the classes in question but what you're forgetting is that warriors/knights NEED to be in 4m range to generate resources...something that Powertech/sins/operatives don't have to deal with, which doesn't confine them to melee range, on the other hand, in some scenarios staying in 4m range is something you should avoid (aka when fighting a Warrior/Knight). And you might wanna check the range on the marauder, juggernaut, and assassin abilities...the range on those abilities is 10m...

 

The fact is, that the game still considers the roles of Powertechs to be (and I quote from my post above) Ranged Tank, Ranged Damage, Close-Quarter Damage. I've even linked it for you all in case you don't believe me >.>

 

1. So sith warrior is the only melee class in game because of resource?

2. Saber throw, dual saber throw, enrage all generate resource from range. You even have rage generation built into specs that triggers from being attacked. Resource management was not designed based on ranged or melee archetypes but were designed around class aestetics: rage- sith warrior, ammo-trooper, bh-heat, etc. This does not lend the argument in anyone's favor unless you are arguing that sith warriors are clunky and poorly designed due to how your resource is managed.

3. Holonet is out of date and admitted to be out of date from the devs at some cantina tours if I remember correctly. You can also find threads from the community here pointing out several out of date things on the holonet. Like I said in my post. Powertech was launched as ranged and then revamped shortly after to fit into the melee class archetype. To prove this, the very link you posted still lists the pyrotech tree as firebug, what it use to be WAY back in the day.

 

I fully understand that you may be of the opinion that powertech is ranged in your eyes and I'm not arguing that. I do disagree as using the same logic would suggest that operatives are ranged classes as well and one could even argue assassins are too. I am simply pointing out that there are a total of 5 advance classes in the melee archetype in swtor and are balanced based on these archetypes, 10 including the mirrors:

Juggernaut

Marauder

Assassin

Operative

Powertech

 

I get it if you want to cling to your link, after all it is from swtor.com. I would be sold by it if I hadn't been following the game since pre-launch beta and reading the dev blogs and tracker religiously. Also if I could find the firebug tree in game too that might sell me. As you will see if you create a powertech, firebug does not exist in the current game.

 

Sorry sir

 

Ps. You are right about some of the abilities being 10m and not 15m, but that doesn't change the point as powertech range is 10m too leaving the comparison in tack.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Shikyo

[General_Aldo]

Only post 2.0 players who think they know everything about this simple game would claim a Powertech a range class.

 

1-3 abilities with 30m DOESN'T mean range class

Edited July 16, 2014 by General_Aldo

[Tevzz]

1. So sith warrior is the only melee class in game because of resource?

2. Saber throw, dual saber throw, enrage all generate resource from range.

 

Dual saber throw does not build any resource unless you are rage/focus specced and a mara/sentinel.

 

You even have rage generation built into specs that triggers from being attacked.

 

Endless Rage is specific to Juggs, Maras don't generate rage when they get attacked unless they have the Cloak of Carnage Passive AND have cloak of pain active and Rage or Annihilation do not take Cloak of Carnage at all.

 

3. Holonet is out of date and admitted to be out of date from the devs at some cantina tours if I remember correctly. You can also find threads from the community here pointing out several out of date things on the holonet. Like I said in my post. Powertech was launched as ranged and then revamped shortly after to fit into the melee class archetype. To prove this, the very link you posted still lists the pyrotech tree as firebug, what it use to be WAY back in the day.

 

This is very possible, I've started playing the game during 2.2 so I have not really looked into things before that patch, although I have heard many times that Powertechs used to have 30m of range on their main abilities. Since you seem well informed I will trust you on the fact that Powertech's Firebug tree has been removed (Or at least completely remodeled and renamed)

 

I fully understand that you may be of the opinion that powertech is ranged in your eyes and I'm not arguing that. I do disagree as using the same logic would suggest that operatives are ranged classes as well and one could even argue assassins are too. I am simply pointing out that there are a total of 5 advance classes in the melee archetype in swtor and are balanced based on these archetypes, 10 including the mirrors:

Juggernaut

Marauder

Assassin

Operative

Powertech

 

I get it if you want to cling to your link, after all it is from swtor.com. I would be sold by it if I hadn't been following the game since pre-launch beta and reading the dev blogs and tracker religiously. Also if I could find the firebug tree in game too that might sell me. As you will see if you create a powertech, firebug does not exist in the current game.

 

I have a Powertech, specced AP because I prefer it to Pyro. But When I'm on my PT I don't feel like a melee class at ALL, having to get in melee range for 1-2 abilities is far from being anything like my Concealment Operative or my Deception Assassin and don't get me started on my Mara/Sentinel/Jugg, it's a world of difference. When I play on my powertech I don't feel like a ranged class, because most of the time, I'm not in the enemy's face hitting him, but rather shooting fire at hit from a certain distance. So when somebody says that a Powertech = melee, in my head it goes like "Does it feel like any of my other classes?" and the answer is "No it doesn't", at all actually, this is why for me Powertechs are not a melee class.

 

 

replies in red

Edited July 16, 2014 by Tevzz

[Raansu]

So the real lesson here is that we all need to go to the shadowlands as we now know that people like Tevzz would be incredibly easy to kill after making a statement of

But When I'm on my PT I don't feel like a melee class at ALL

showing that he has no clue how to play this game. I bet you're one of those PT's that uses unload huh?