What's the point of being melee in this game with the current state of PvP

[Zoom_VI]

What I don't even.

 

Melee are fine, just because they don't faceroll over the ranged classes like they used to doesn't mean they are underpowered. And this is coming from someone who plays melee.

[Tevzz]

What I don't even.

 

Melee are fine, just because they don't faceroll over the ranged classes like they used to doesn't mean they are underpowered. And this is coming from someone who plays melee.

 

Your sig doesn't state any melee >.>

 

And please tell me when melee were able to faceroll over ranged. The only time a spec facerolled over ranged is when a Smasher jumped in a group of 5 ranged (who for some reason were all in a circle with a 5m radius...why?) and smashed them for 8-10k each. But if ranged wanna tacetank when I jump on them with my vengeance jug even when they ARE NOT rooted and can freely kite me or don't interrupt my Gore->Ravage but spam force lightning/tracer on me only to hard stun me by the time ravage is over then they should get facerolled.

 

All real ranged classes have both a hard stun, a mezz and a knockback, yet I see many go on the front line and use their knockbacks to push other ranged (???) or throw their mezz on a target only to break it themselves a few seconds later.

 

Melee is definitely not in the place some people make it out to be and it can perform well, but there's a reason why there's more ranged classes in WZ's than ever before, and I doubt that it's because everybody suddenly decided to roll sorcs and mercs. When Smashers we're OP it was obvious...you could have 4-5+ of them per game and they were wrecking everybody, now it's more like 3-4 melee at most in the match and they're definitely not the ones wrecking...

[DarthRaika]

In regs the classes are very well balanced and in ranked there are only a few weak classes. Imo balance in this game is better than any other mmo I have been in.

 

However, the main issue relates to faction imbalances and low populations. Cross server and mixed faction teams would change this. Cross Server and mixed faction teams would even help in alleviating the hybrid problem in ranked since hybrids work best when q syncing with players worth being a hybrid for.

[Zoom_VI]

Your sig doesn't state any melee >.>

Powertechs are melee. I also have a juggernaut.

 

And please tell me when melee were able to faceroll over ranged. The only time a spec facerolled over ranged is when a Smasher jumped in a group of 5 ranged (who for some reason were all in a circle with a 5m radius...why?) and smashed them for 8-10k each. But if ranged wanna tacetank when I jump on them with my vengeance jug even when they ARE NOT rooted and can freely kite me or don't interrupt my Gore->Ravage but spam force lightning/tracer on me only to hard stun me by the time ravage is over then they should get facerolled.

 

All real ranged classes have both a hard stun, a mezz and a knockback, yet I see many go on the front line and use their knockbacks to push other ranged (???) or throw their mezz on a target only to break it themselves a few seconds later.

 

Between 1.2 and 2.4 merc and sorc DPS where not even worth playing at all. Snipers where able to hold there own but where never the optimal DPS. After 2.4 and the switch to arenas, Madness became viable particularly after the buffs, however merc and sniper DPS are literally the worst dps in the game now. Lightning is bad too, but nobody plays it anyway.

 

Also Operatives and both warrior AC have a AoE mezz, not one of the ranged classes have a AoE mezz, and for sorcs and mercs their single target mezz requires a cast. Powertechs have a AoE hardstun which means assassins are the only melee that does not have a AoE stun. Oh and the warrior specs, particularly veng and carnage, have the absolute best target control in the game with their arsenal of roots and snares.

 

Melee is definitely not in the place some people make it out to be and it can perform well, but there's a reason why there's more ranged classes in WZ's than ever before, and I doubt that it's because everybody suddenly decided to roll sorcs and mercs. When Smashers we're OP it was obvious...you could have 4-5+ of them per game and they were wrecking everybody, now it's more like 3-4 melee at most in the match and they're definitely not the ones wrecking...

 

I don't know about your server, but my server is crawling with anni mauaraders, veng jugs, and assassins, with a spattering of powertechs on the side.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Tevzz]

Powertechs are melee. I also have a juggernaut.

 

Also Operatives and both warrior AC have a AoE mezz, not one of the ranged classes have a AoE mezz, and for sorcs and mercs their single target mezz requires a cast. Powertechs have a AoE hardstun which means assassins are the only melee that does not have a AoE stun. Oh and the warrior specs, particularly veng and carnage, have the absolute best target control in the game with their arsenal of roots and snares.

 

 

I don't know about your server, but my server is crawling with anni mauaraders, veng jugs, and assassins, with a spattering of powertechs on the side.

 

Powertechs are not melee at ALL. They have 1 baseline 4m ability and you need to spec AP for the 2nd...you don't get any more melee abilities. Concealment Operatives are melee but powertechs are not, unless you play AP nothing and nobody forces you to go to 4m range, you can reset Rail Shot just fine with only Flame Burst, and honestly I'd rather lose a bit of DPS by not using rocket punch than to be forced to eat a Veng Jugg's ravage

 

I was mentioning the Mezzez because they help ranged get away and create distance (unless they've dotted their target), a melee won't use an AoE mezz to close the gap unless a sin decides to use whirlwind to catch up an almost dead fleeing target...I know that Whirlwind and Conc. Missile are both channeled (the latter doesn't have to be) but if the opponent keeps his interrupt specifically for your mezz you can pretty much unload you best casted abilities on him. And if he interrupts those, well he has to use a stun/mezz to avoid being mezzed himself which wouldn't be a very wise thing to do.

 

I agree that Vengeance can be a pain but they're also the least mobile of all melee...once Leap is done...they can't close the gap for **** while sorcs/mercs can still Force speed/Hydraulics away. Carnage is probably the king of mobility with predation but a big portion of their burst can be screwed with a single KB/Stun.

 

On my server I'm usually the only sentinel in the game when I play pub side. Mara it's often the same, there's a bit more Veng Juggs and sins but the VAST majority are madness/Hybrid Sorcs and Arsenal Mercs

[JackNader]

Love how people keep claiming powertechs are melee

[Zoom_VI]

Love how people keep claiming powertechs are melee

 

I'm sorry but sub ten meters is effectively melee at that point.

 

30m autoattack != ranged.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Tevzz]

I'm sorry but sub ten meters is effectively melee at that point.

 

30m autoattack != ranged.

 

I still don't understand how it's melee....10m != 4m.

[JackNader]

Melee = 4m bro.

Ranged = >=10m

 

Pt's have a grand total of 2 abilities in the 4m range.

Jugs/marauders on the other hand have almost all their abilities in the 4m range.

 

But, yeh.. let's throw logic out the window and keep believing PT's are melee lol.

 

Here's a better example.. go do hammer station as a PT tank and range the last boss so that your melee DPS don't get knocked back. If Pt's are melee then ranging the boss should not be possible. After you are done, try to range the boss on a jug tank and see how that works for you.

Edited July 14, 2014 by JackNader

[JackNader]

I still don't understand how it's melee....10m != 4m.

 

You're not supposed to understand. People on these forums don't think rationally. They get an idea stuck in their head and anything that contradicts that idea is considered a direct attack on their person. Whether their core philosophy is right or wrong is completely irrelevant. They will defend their ego to the bitter end rather than simply accept that they are wrong and change.

Edited July 14, 2014 by JackNader

[PloGreen]

My thoughts

 

Powertechs are not considered a ranged class, they actually had their range reduced to 10m a long long time ago. They have some ranged abilities however the crux of their damage and burst potential comes from melee range. I cannot believe people would actually consider this class a ranged class, they are a melee/ranged hybrid with the empahsis on melee.

 

Why on earth do you think the class can spec for a charge or they have a grapple/pull? Why do they not have a knockback if they are meant to be played at range? They also have aoe mezz. They are meant to close the gap, not widen it. Much the same as shadows being capable of casting lightning, mind crush at 10m.. Does that mean they are not melee then? Since technically they are also a hybrid class.

 

This thread is full of so much bias to try and support this claim that melee are a in a bad spot that people are now trying to call classes with gap closers ranged. Melee ruled this game for 2 years at least, they are not in a bad spot now. All that effectively happened is that mara got a well overdue smack with the nerfbat and now you have people qqing about the other classes they used to think were a free kill.

 

Half the complaints in this thread are about matchmaking not actual class balance (omg 4-5 ranged make melee life hell, what do you think happens the other way round?...) People also stating "why should my mara need a healer to be more effective? game should be balanced 1 v 1" = synergy is part of the game. Of course maras are more effective with a healer, just as a healer is more effective with a tank guarding them.

 

Maras need a few QOL changes but the meta has shifted from derp mode for this class, there are some fantastic maras out there but there are a lot of qqing terrible players who want it how it used to be or worse, they want to have what jugs have (give me unstoppable, we need cc immunity etc etc, give me ed). Pts are strong - no one with a clue considers this class ranged, shadows are strong, Jugs are in a great place (o er). The only melee class that has any right to complain are dps ops.

 

Now lets look at ranged - sniper, nerfed in the last few patches, very hard to play well in solo ranked good in regs. Mercs - very hard to play in solo ranked good in regs. Sage - balance is in a good place now, received some buffs to make damage more reliable but still dies relatively easily when focused and the heal/dps proc nerf balances out the damage changes anyway. Tk is **** in arena, easy to shut down. The class has had some nice QOL changes, needs nothing else for the balance tree but that is it. The best ranged class then, but imo they always were it's just a little easier to play now than it was. The skill actually is in the kiting, movement and positioning not damage application.

 

There is nothing overly op about sorc, nothing in comparison to what maras used to be like with regards to smash for what was it? 2 years? You won't get a lot of sympathy because you actually have to think about what you are doing now, oh no. The mara does take skill to play well. Welcome to the world of sorc pre buff (2.0 and beyond) for the last 2 years, the good maras are not complaining, because they are not overextending and they know what they are doing.

 

Sure ask for QOL changes for maras but when you start saying range dominate this game this is laughable.

Edited July 14, 2014 by PloGreen

[General_Aldo]

Let's not be stupid here people.

 

Powertechs have more range than most melee classes, but 10m is NOT a range class. Powertechs are considered a melee class but not in the sense of having a limit to 4m.

 

Don't consider Powertechs a range class just because a majority of their abilities are 10m.

 

On Topic: Melee are still good in solo rank / team rank. But in regs, they do have a difficult time since coordination is almost non existent because bad players don't work together. Honestly, it's a lot easier being a range class in regs because the amount of stress is a lot lower and you can control what battles you are in.

 

Melee classes really excel at rank but in regs they can be a headache. For regs, it's easier to be a range class.

Edited July 14, 2014 by General_Aldo

[PloGreen]

Let's not be stupid here people.

 

Powertechs have more range than most melee classes, but 10m is NOT a range class. Powertechs are considered a melee class but not in the sense of having a limit to 4m.

 

Don't consider Powertechs a range class just because a majority of their abilities are 10m.

 

On Topic: Melee are still good in solo rank / team rank. But in regs, they do have a difficult time since coordination is almost non existent because bad players don't work together. Honestly, it's a lot easier being a range class in regs because the amount of stress is a lot lower and you can control what battles you are in.

 

Melee classes really excel at rank but in regs they can be a headache. For regs, it's easier to be a range class.

 

Ye this I agree with, you have an easier time in regs on a ranged class, but not in arena. 8v8 a lot of ranged can find a nice spot to LOS, or use height advantage or hide amongst the chaos. Melee can still shine in this environment but much like ranged in ranked arena, they have to think about positioning (eg not over extending as a melee) and accept that if you in a classes face with access to upfront burst abilities - you are going to get cced rooted, focused, slowed and controlled. Much like a range class is going to get focused to death in arena. So yes obviously a melee class such as a mara or jug will be a lot stronger with healing/cleansing support. They are not self reliant but this is why they have defensive cooldowns like ed, or escapes like force camo etc, aoe mezzes.

 

Class balance is in a better place than it ever was imo but not perfect. Though we still have issues with sage healers in ranked.

 

Merc dps and snipers need to be adjusted for arena or they could just do what most people want and give us back 8v8 ranked, since this was what the game was designed for in the first place.

 

Dps ops? What to do with them? There are very few team orientated DPS ops, the only one I can think of from EU is Snave tbh. I know little about dps ops, probably best ask him what he thinks about the state of those.

Edited July 14, 2014 by PloGreen

[chillshock]

Melee is defined by being close to another player so he can hit you with anything his melee attacks as well:

 

Playing a Pyro a lot (before 2.8.1 wich ran it over with the fotm train by all rerollers who didn't go veng-jugg) I absolutely have to tell you 10m is RANGED!

 

It's not longrange, no - but it is so easy to kite someone withing to 10m range by using the auto-slow of flamesweep... it's ridiculous! If you start standing still as a PT/Merc... you should not whine about pvp. Never. Ever. Stand. Still. When. Not. Stunned. (Roots = you use overrides).

 

Yes, 10m is Ranged. The damage-mitigation by moving efficiently away from melee charactes proves it! Or let me stand at 10m with my PT and you stand there and hit with your melee attack. If you can't... I guess I'm ranged, no?

 

Other than that: Melee is more fun. xD

[PloGreen]

Melee is defined by being close to another player so he can hit you with anything his melee attacks as well:

 

Playing a Pyro a lot (before 2.8.1 wich ran it over with the fotm train by all rerollers who didn't go veng-jugg) I absolutely have to tell you 10m is RANGED!

 

It's not longrange, no - but it is so easy to kite someone withing to 10m range by using the auto-slow of flamesweep... it's ridiculous! If you start standing still as a PT/Merc... you should not whine about pvp. Never. Ever. Stand. Still. When. Not. Stunned. (Roots = you use overrides).

 

Yes, 10m is Ranged. The damage-mitigation by moving efficiently away from melee charactes proves it! Or let me stand at 10m with my PT and you stand there and hit with your melee attack. If you can't... I guess I'm ranged, no?

 

Other than that: Melee is more fun. xD

 

They are a hybrid, however most of their burst potential comes from melee range. So they are not in fact considered range. You dont kite to stay on target either, you pull them and you use hold the line to keep up with ranged who will snare you, to keep them in melee range. You are designed to keep classes in range not keep them at bay. So imo this makes you a melee/hybrid class not a ranged one. True ranged classes try to maintain a gap, pts are designed to close that gap, pts can also face tank better than any other range so not sure why you would put them in the same bracket as other ranged classes. They are not a ranged class.

Edited July 14, 2014 by PloGreen

[ToMyMa]

My thoughts

 

Powertechs are not considered a ranged class, they actually had their range reduced to 10m a long long time ago. They have some ranged abilities however the crux of their damage and burst potential comes from melee range. I cannot believe people would actually consider this class a ranged class, they are a melee/ranged hybrid with the empahsis on melee.

 

Why on earth do you think the class can spec for a charge or they have a grapple/pull? Why do they not have a knockback if they are meant to be played at range? Aoe mezz also. They are meant to close the gap, not widen it. Much the same as shadows being capable of casting lightning, mind crush at 10m.. Does that mean they are not melee then? Since technically they are also a hybrid class.

 

This thread is full of so much bias to try and support this claim that melee are a in a bad spot that people are now trying to call classes with gap closers ranged. Melee ruled this game for 2 years at least, they are not in a bad spot now. All that effectively happened is that mara got a well overdue smack with the nerfbat and now you have people qqing about the other classes they used to think were a free kill.

 

Half the complaints in this thread are about matchmaking not actual class balance (omg 4-5 ranged make melee life hell, what do you think happens the other way round?...) People also stating "why should my mara need a healer to be more effective? game should be balanced 1 v 1" = synergy is part of the game. Of course maras are more effective with a healer, just as a healer is more effective with a tank guarding them.

 

Maras need a few QOL changes but the meta has shifted from derp mode for this class, there are some fantastic maras out there but there are a lot of qqing terrible players who want it how it used to be or worse, they want to have what jugs have (give me unstoppable, we need cc immunity etc etc, give me ed). Pts are strong - no one with a clue considers this class ranged, shadows are strong, Jugs are in a great place (o er). The only melee class that has any right to complain are dps ops.

 

Now lets look at ranged - sniper, nerfed in the last few patches, very hard to play well in solo ranked good in regs. Mercs - very hard to play in solo ranked good in regs. Sage - balance is in a good place now, received some buffs to make damage more reliable but still dies relatively easily when focused and the heal/dps proc nerf balances out the damage changes anyway. Tk is **** in arena, easy to shut down. The class has had some nice QOL changes, needs nothing else for the balance tree but that is it. The best ranged class then, but imo they always were it's just a little easier to play now than it was. The skill actually is in the kiting, movement and positioning not damage application.

 

There is nothing overly op about sorc, nothing in comparison to what maras used to be like with regards to smash for what was it? 2 years? You won't get a lot of sympathy because you actually have to think about what you are doing now, oh no. The mara does take skill to play well. Welcome to the world of sorc pre buff (2.0 and beyond) for the last 2 years, the good maras are not complaining, because they are not overextending and they know what they are doing.

 

Sure ask for QOL changes for maras but when you start saying range dominate this game this is laughable.

 

Probably the most logical and rational thing posted here yet.

 

+1 internetz

[JackNader]

Probably the most logical and rational thing posted here yet.

 

+1 internetz

 

The guy made up his own definition of what constitutes a ranged or melee class and you call this logical and rational?

LOL

 

-1 humanity.

[PloGreen]

The guy made up his own definition of what constitutes a ranged or melee class and you call this logical and rational?

LOL

 

-1 humanity.

 

Please explain to me why you consider a vanguard to be a ranged class then? Since I have explained in detail why I do not consider them a true range class. I would be happy to have this debate with you.

 

As i explained they are a hybrid class with the emphasis on melee. Would you like to refute that? Please go ahead and tell me you can kill a sorc from 30 metres away with a pt by not pulling them into melee range for example? I would like to see it done, because the last time I played on my vanguard the most effective way to play or kill anything is by keeping those ranged classes in melee range not keeping them at distance (which is what a true range class does).

Edited July 14, 2014 by PloGreen

[JackNader]

It has been explained to you TWICE in the last 2 pages. You simply ignored it in favor of your "own" made up definition. Debating you on this is a complete and utter waste of my time so I will give you a very simple test which you can perform at your own leisure.

 

Step 1

Get on your vanguard.

 

Step2

Get yourself some tank gear.

 

Step 3

Get yourself a healer and 2 EQUALLY geared melee DPS.

 

Step 4

Use group finder to queue for a hardmode hammer station.

 

Step 5

Go to the last boss of hammer station and stand 10m away from him. If you go within 6m of the boss he will trigger a knockback, knocking any class within "MELEE" range away from him. The goal is to hold agro while "RANGING" the boss so that he never uses his knockback. This allows your "MELEE" DPS 100% uptime on the boss for the shortest possible kill time. If the vanguard is a melee class as you would like us to believe.. holding agro at "range" should be impossible. You should note that you only have to forgo 1 ability in order to complete this task.

 

Now get on your jug or guardian (if you have one).. get some tank gear and repeat the exact same process. The first thing you will note is that it is now IMPOSSIBLE to hold aggro on that boss while attempting to range it. This is because almost every single one of your abilities are MELEE.

 

The final step is to come here and apologize.

Edited July 14, 2014 by JackNader

[PloGreen]

It has been explained to you TWICE in the last 2 pages. You simply ignored it in favor of your "own" made up definition. Debating you on this is a complete and utter waste of my time so I will give you a very simple test which you can perform at your own leisure.

 

Step 1

Get on your vanguard.

 

Step2

Get yourself some tank gear.

 

Step 3

Get yourself a healer and 2 EQUALLY geared melee DPS.

 

Step 4

Use group finder to queue for a hardmode hammer station.

 

Step 5

Go to the last boss of hammer station and stand 10m away from him. If you go within 6m of the boss he will trigger a knockback, knocking any class within "MELEE" range away from him. The goal is to hold agro while "RANGING" the boss so that he never uses his knockback. This allows your "MELEE" DPS 100% uptime on the boss for the shortest possible kill time. If the vanguard is a melee class as you would like us to believe.. holding agro at "range" should be impossible. If you lack the skill to complete this task I would be more than happy to fraps the fight and show you how easy it is.

 

Now get on your jug or guardian (if you have one).. get some tank gear and repeat the exact same process. The first thing you will note is that it is now IMPOSSIBLE to hold aggro on that boss while attempting to range it. This is because almost every single one of your abilities are MELEE.

 

The final step is to come here and apologize.

 

So your bring pve into a debate about the state of melee in pvp? This is the best you can do? I suggest you stick to pve mate, since you do not seem be able to debate pvp mechanics sensibly and ignore any of the points I have made. Don't expect an apology either since this is my opinion and if you believe that is somehow a slight on you as a person you should probably seek professional help.

 

I said the vanguard is a HYBRID class, emphasis being placed on melee, which any logical person can conclude - learn to read. Try not to get too upset as well, just because you cannot debate without throwing a tantrum don't expect everyone else in this thread to do the same. You will have to do better than that.

 

Oh and yes I have every class at 55 bar shadow/sin, operative/scoundrel, been playing since early access and all I do is pvp. So i have an understanding of the meta and how it works, and the difference between classes - shoot away. I like a healthy debate, but I am not sure this is possible with you, you seem to take it personally if people have a different rationale to yourself.

Edited July 14, 2014 by PloGreen

[Pistols]

VG/PT is considered melee, stop window licking over it ffs.'

 

The effective difference between 4 meter true melee classes and VG/PT's is 6 meters...

 

The effective difference between Merc/Mando ranged classes and VG/PT's is 20 meters...

 

The effective difference between GS/Sniper ranged classes and VG/PT's is 25 meters...

 

This tells you that VG/PT's fall into the melee range, not to mention good VG/PT's usually like to sit in close, why a drooler asks, because the good ones know how to use that one important skill called an interrupt. Which tells me that the 2 droolers thinking this class is ranged, doesn't have the slightest clue how to play. /nuff said, gg. lrn2play, you lose. Move along....move along.

[Pistols]

Use group finder to queue for a hardmode hammer station.

 

Nobody here cares about PvE modes....good lord....have the PvP forums really digressed this badly of late?

[JackNader]

A) Your not my mate.

B) The range of a class does not change between PvP or PvE and quite frankly, its embarrassing that you so easily dismissed this.

 

@ Pistols

Let's just remove that 6m difference and call it "almost" melee. or better yet.. let's dress a guy up in girls clothes and call him "almost" a girl. *********** rotfl

Edited July 14, 2014 by JackNader

[Pistols]

A) Your not my mate.

B) The range of a class does not change between PvP or PvE and quite frankly, its embarrassing that you so easily dismissed this.

 

So essentially, you don't use your interrupt in PvP, only if you just happen to get within 4 meters...k, lol.

 

Cause we all know, the good VG/PT's, sit back at 10 meters only, and they never close the gap to shutdown those pesky casters...lol.

 

Oh, and the fight structure between the 2 styles you're comparing, well...lemme just laugh a little harder...

 

Yeah, this debate was over when you chimed in brah.

 

Don't quote embarrassing in that lovely glass house you call home.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Pistols

[PloGreen]

VG/PT is considered melee, stop window licking over it ffs.'

 

The effective difference between 4 meter true melee classes and VG/PT's is 6 meters...

 

The effective difference between Merc/Mando ranged classes and VG/PT's is 20 meters...

 

The effective difference between GS/Sniper ranged classes and VG/PT's is 25 meters...

 

This tells you that VG/PT's fall into the melee range, not to mention good VG/PT's usually like to sit in close, why a drooler asks, because the good ones know how to use that one important skill called an interrupt. Which tells me that the 2 droolers thinking this class is ranged, doesn't have the slightest clue how to play. /nuff said, gg. lrn2play, you lose. Move along....move along.

 

Yup something I overlooked - interupt on a vanguard is in melee range, not at ranged. More evidence that the pt/vanguard main function is too be up close and personal. Thanks for that, missed it.