What's the point of being melee in this game with the current state of PvP

[Pistols]

Yup something I overlooked - interupt on a vanguard is in melee range, not at ranged. More evidence that the pt/vanguard main function is too be up close and personal. Thanks for that, missed it.

 

No worries. Been playing this class since Beta, and it amazes me so many droolers think "oh hey, they can just use these at 10 meters only, so they are RANGED!!11!!" I always laugh so hard. Obviously they don't PvP much, since it's quite obvious they have no idea how this class is supposed to be used in PvP. Perhaps back in the day, when abilities were structured differently, there could be a case...but now...it's all melee.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Pistols

[PloGreen]

A) Your not my mate.

B) The range of a class does not change between PvP or PvE and quite frankly, its embarrassing that you so easily dismissed this.

 

@ Pistols

Let's just remove that 6m difference and call it "almost" melee. or better yet.. let's dress a guy up in girls clothes and call him "almost" a girl. *********** rotfl

 

I will ask you a few direct questions, please answer instead of trolling and laughing at your own comments:-

 

1. How many of the vanguard/pts abilities are usable at 30-35m?

 

2. Why do they have a gap closer?

 

3. Why do they have an aoe mezz?

 

4. Why do they have upfront burst at short range?

 

5. Why is their interupt only usable in melee range?

Edited July 14, 2014 by PloGreen

[PloGreen]

No worries. Been playing this class since Beta, and it amazes me so many droolers think "oh hey, they can just use these at 10 meters only, so they are RANGED!!11!!" I always laugh so hard. Obviously they don't PvP much, since it's quite obvious they have no idea how this class is supposed to be used in PvP.

 

Y i play one occasionally but I don't use it much if I'm honest, i just forgot about the interupt! I spend most time on sorc or sage out of all the classes since i prefer the playstyle over the other ones. If its melee I am enjoying the shadow (43), and I will play jug/guardian if i'm bored, its nice to have better defensive cooldowns than they used to(ed is ok now imo). My sent not so much, was never really into it when everyone was smashing everything but I might play it now and again, i like combat but i think it does take a high skill cap to play well. Only two classes i need at 55 are op/scoundrel and shadow. I am enjoying shadow though, so will do that to 55 next.

 

I was in beta but only the open ones a month or two before it went live. Been playing on and off since then really.

Edited July 14, 2014 by PloGreen

[JackNader]

If the class was "meant" to be played at 4m... every single one of its abilities would state 4m.

It's a middle ground class. It was given the tools to deal with long ranged classes and also the ability to kite melee classes. It can LOS strafe and still deal good damage. This is something strict melee classes cannot do. Jugs and Marauders must be within 4m to function properly. Powertechs do not. Trying to squeeze powertechs into the melee slot by stating that they are "almost" melee is patently false. They aren't a melee class.

[Gyronamics]

It's like being back at the game release and hearing people desperately trying to argue that a vg is a ranged tank.

 

Staying at 10m is a dps loss. While staying at genuine range of 30m is pants on head special.

 

As the slowest melee class in the game it has less strict limits on attack range on top of a baseline pull to make life more bearable.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Gyronamics

[AngusFTW]

Well biowares original intention was to make them a ranged tank apparently but they soon scrapped that xD

[JackNader]

I will ask you a few direct questions, please answer instead of trolling and laughing at your own comments:-

 

1. How many of the vanguard/pts abilities are usable at 30-35m?

 

2 taunts, explosive dart, missile blast, unload, death from above, rail shot, grapple, jet charge, rapid shots.

Every other ability is 10m except interrupt, gut and rocket punch.

 

2. Why do they have a gap closer?

 

Because they are a tanking class and to deal with classes who can escape their 10m range. Also adds utility.

 

3. Why do they have an aoe mezz?

 

Added utility and because they are a tanking class. AOE stuns are to deal with being surrounded by primarily MELEE based NPC's or players. Very handy for locking down targets to get off your flamethrower.

 

4. Why do they have upfront burst at short range?

 

Their burst is 10m range. Pyro used to have a 30m range burst but was considered too overpowered because they could melt melee classes while closing to 10m.

 

5. Why is their interupt only usable in melee range?

 

My best guess is that it is a design oversight. Considering that most of their damage is dealt at 10m, their interrupt should be 10m also. I would also imagine that the developers wouldn't care at all changing it to 10m as abilities like ravage can no longer be interrupted. It would have little to no impact.

 

 

Anything Else?

Edited July 14, 2014 by JackNader

[PloGreen]

If the class was "meant" to be played at 4m... every single one of its abilities would state 4m.

It's a middle ground class. It was given the tools to deal with long ranged classes and also the ability to kite melee classes. It can LOS strafe and still deal good damage. This is something strict melee classes cannot do. Jugs and Marauders must be within 4m to function properly. Powertechs do not. Trying to squeeze powertechs into the melee slot by stating that they are "almost" melee is patently false. They aren't a melee class.

 

So you are backpedaling and actually supporting what I originally said (which you dismissed). They are a hybrid, which work much better in melee range. Unless you think they are a hybrid that work better at distance? (which they do not). A true range class maintains a gap from melee, they do not close it. I never really bothered to kite melee on my vanguard, i just killed them. Why do I need to run away all of the time? I have tools to keep up close, dots, burst, grenades, plastic explosive etc, ion pulse, hold the line. I just have a spammable auto attack at a distance to slow ranged before I pull them (after they have used force speed for instance) and if im lucky proc railshot, I wont try and fight a ranged class with my ranged abilities and stick only to range, it would be better for me to put them in melee distance because they are useless in melee range , not hard to work it out really. Kiting is not my main line of defense though, since I have a few defensive cooldowns anyway.

 

Hell even the tank tree has a charge, the tactics tree has a shiv move "gut", and reduction on pull/grapple. Odd that a class that should be "kiting melee" has tools to pull them into kill range, ditto for range classes. Seems pretty obvious to me that the most effective range for killing anything on a vanguard is 10m and under, (they were known as a 3 button class for a reason you know). That indicates to me that they are more effective, if they are closer to a target. If you would like to list all the effective ranged abilities to counter ranged with I'm all ears.

 

I would also like to know what you believe a shadow is? For most people they are considered melee. But they are too a hybrid/stealth class who function better in melee range. But they have abilities they can cast at 10m, and the balance tree is largely about dots. I have never heard of anyone that considers the shadow a ranged class.

Edited July 14, 2014 by PloGreen

[PloGreen]

Anything Else?

 

Exactly all of their burst is in melee range, so the best way to play a vanguard is up close and personal. Hence hybrid, emphasis being placed on melee range. Which is what I said...

 

The interupt is not a design oversight, they want you to get close to use it. Big clue there.

Thank you.

 

Oh and your are correct grapple is a ranged skill, but the idea is that it pulls your target into melee range, so you can kill them it is not exclusive to tanking. It is a very useful tool for focus targeting for instance (if you are the lead target caller and everyone has you on focus target).

Edited July 14, 2014 by PloGreen

[JackNader]

FFS man... No!

 

10m is NOT melee. 4m is Melee. Would you like me to post the dictionary definition of the word melee. All you, Pistols and anyone else who agrees with you has done is come into this thread with your "own" made up definition of what constitutes ranged vs melee and palmed it off as correct. You are not correct. You are unequivocally false in your definition.

 

Using your same logic I could say something stupid like my engineering sniper is a melee class. I spend a good chunk of my time within melee range of my target because I like to toss them against walls and wall bang them for stupid amounts of damage. Wall banging requires me to be within 4m of my target therefore engineering snipers must be melee. The point is that you don't get to shift the line around to justify your own point of view.

 

Melee is anything used in hand to hand combat.

Ranged is anything projectile in nature.

Edited July 14, 2014 by JackNader

[PloGreen]

FFS man... No!

 

10m is NOT melee. 4m is Melee. Would you like me to post the dictionary definition of the word melee. All you, Pistols and anyone else who agrees with you has done is come into this thread with your "own" made up definition of what constitutes ranged vs melee and palmed it off as correct. You are not correct. You are unequivocally false in your definition.

 

Using your same logic I could say something stupid like my engineering sniper is a melee class. I spend a good chunk of my time within melee range of my target because I like to toss them against walls and wall bang them for stupid amounts of damage. Wall banging requires me to be within 4m of my target therefore engineering snipers must be melee. You don't get to shift the line around to justify your own point of view.

 

Melee is anything used in hand to hand combat.

Ranged is anything projectile in nature.

 

Which is why I said hybrid, emphasis being placed on melee for being effective, which to kill a healer you will need to do.

Edited July 14, 2014 by PloGreen

[AngusFTW]

Is it me or.. does this seem like its an argument over nothing..

[PloGreen]

Is it me or.. does this seem like its an argument over nothing..

 

Most things are on the pvp forums bleezar.

[Galothor]

What advantage? Honestly madness is pretty much the only ranged spec that stands out in this game. Marauder is kinda starting to fall behind from specific nerfs but overall melee has no problem completely shutting down every ranged class in the game. Madness spec is pretty much the only one that stands out. Pyro mercs can sorta do it but nowhere near as well as madness. Snipers are only a thread if you leave them alone and die quite easily if they even get a minor amount of focus on them. Ranged is doing better, but its hardly at an advantage. This game is still heavily focused on melee and melee still easily deals with ranged in this game.

 

Marauders are not bad, it's just that most of them still play like they are smash-gods and think they can single-handedly take on the entire enemy team. A good marauder can kill anything (maybe except for a jugg), just look at Marrat. He is not brainlessly jumping into the enemy team trying to kill all 4 of them all by himself.

 

And madness sorcs are by far not as powerful as many people suggest. A lot of their damage comes from Force Lightning and the consequent Wrath Proc. But if you are getting focused or under pressure you will have a hard time channeling that Force Lightning (if you want to survive longer than your opponent) and thus getting the Wrath Procc.

 

And despite this game still favoring melees, the current balance is the best we ever had in this game. Yes i know the smash cry babies disagree on this one, but that's because all of a sudden they realize it was not them being good but their class. There might be some small changes necessary to the individual ACs, but any major change would probably do more harm than good.

 

People should also stop only looking at the highest dps / overall damage at the of each match. There is a huge difference between burst damage and dot and there is a huge difference between focused damage and aoe / spread damage. If i can do 40k with 1 instant skill that is worth more than doing 60k or 80k on several people or over an longer period of time (at least in pvp).

[PloGreen]

Marauders are not bad, it's just that most of them still play like they are smash-gods and think they can single-handedly take on the entire enemy team. A good marauder can kill anything (maybe except for a jugg), just look at Marrat. He is not brainlessly jumping into the enemy team trying to kill all 4 of them all by himself.

 

And madness sorcs are by far not as powerful as many people suggest. A lot of their damage comes from Force Lightning and the consequent Wrath Proc. But if you are getting focused or under pressure you will have a hard time channeling that Force Lightning (if you want to survive longer than your opponent) and thus getting the Wrath Procc.

 

And despite this game still favoring melees, the current balance is the best we ever had in this game. Yes i know the smash cry babies disagree on this one, but that's because all of a sudden they realize it was not them being good but their class. There might be some small changes necessary to the individual ACs, but any major change would probably do more harm than good.

 

People should also stop only looking at the highest dps / overall damage at the of each match. There is a huge difference between burst damage and dot and there is a huge difference between focused damage and aoe / spread damage. If i can do 40k with 1 instant skill that is worth more than doing 60k or 80k on several people or over an longer period of time (at least in pvp).

 

Yup, I would agree with most of this. I think balance is better overall, and perhaps maras need some qol adjustments. I do believe someone suggested camo breaking hard stuns, not sure how I feel about that but it would be interesting to test that out. There are classes (mercs, snipers) that are in a worse state in arenas though (imo).

[Uber_the_Goober]

Title says it all

 

Because you don't need to have the perfect AC/spec to enjoy yourself, or to be competitive.

[Joesixxpack]

The point depends on your perspective. Mine is that fotm and the resultant stacking sucks bantha balls. So I back burnered the current flavors that I enjoyed prior and rolled a new sent. Edited July 14, 2014 by Joesixxpack

[Raansu]

3 pages of arguing about PT and I'm laughing my *** off. The damn class has a myriad of abilities between 4m/10m/30m, but you spend 99% of your fights within melee range. It's a melee class with "some" ranged. End of story.

[Joesixxpack]

3 pages of arguing about PT and I'm laughing my *** off. The damn class has a myriad of abilities between 4m/10m/30m, but you spend 99% of your fights within melee range. It's a melee class with "some" ranged. End of story.

 

^ This.

 

Dual throw 30 m.; single throw, choke, scream, crush, all 10 m. These are regularly used abilities so is mara ranged? No.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Joesixxpack

[Zoom_VI]

Wow just wow, I make one comment and get three pages of people being stupid.

 

Pyro PT is qualifies as melee, since remaining under 10m range means you still have to deal with the AoE clusterfck, you still have to deal with gap closing, you still have to deal with chasing people down, and you still have to do the bayonet charge across mid. PTs put up with everything the warrior AC does. (since by some people's in this thread's definition of melee, both Assassin and Operative are ranged classes.)

[PloGreen]

3 pages of arguing about PT and I'm laughing my *** off. The damn class has a myriad of abilities between 4m/10m/30m, but you spend 99% of your fights within melee range. It's a melee class with "some" ranged. End of story.

 

 

Kind of how I see it, but i just called it hybrid with melee emphasis in a bid to keep the dude happy. For me (on my sorc or sage) if I am letting someone get within 10 metres of me on a jug, sent, pt, sin etc that is effective melee range for them and i need to maintain a greater distance so they are forced to leap, pull etc when I want them too. It is better for me to keep distance unless i want to hard stun which is considered melee range (go figure), and LOS ofc.

 

But apparently my definition is wrong melee only means hand to hand combat and ranged only projectiles or something - they have to be 4m exactly and no more if they are true melee. In my opinion this is a flawed analysis that does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

I am sure there are plenty of contradictions in the statement that jugs are one of the only true melee classes in the game since they too have abilities that extend to 10m (obliterate, force push, and force crush) and five abilities (off the top of my head) that can be activated from 30m (leap, intercede, saber throw, taunt and guard). Yet they are considered melee. I probably missed some, cant remember the range on the aoe snare, or mezz. I don't wish to labour the point anymore than I already have. I think at this point to argue about tiny differences (6m)is just pedantic.

 

That suggest to me that 10 metres is effective melee range, but they are still capable of closing the gap at 30 so..

 

Kind of bored of talking about it, so I will stop now.

[PloGreen]

Wow just wow, I make one comment and get three pages of people being stupid.

 

Pyro PT is qualifies as melee, since remaining under 10m range means you still have to deal with the AoE clusterfck, you still have to deal with gap closing, you still have to deal with chasing people down, and you still have to do the bayonet charge across mid. PTs put up with everything the warrior AC does. (since by some people's in this thread's definition of melee, both Assassin and Operative are ranged classes.)

 

That would be 3 pages of one person being stupid since you are repeating what I said anyway.

[JackNader]

3 pages of arguing about PT and I'm laughing my *** off. The damn class has a myriad of abilities between 4m/10m/30m, but "I" spend 99% of my fights within melee range. Therefore I think It's a melee class with "some" ranged. End of story.

 

There I fixed it for you.

 

Too bad the distance you "choose" to stand from your target doesn't determine whether or not a class is ranged or we'd all have to agree that the sorc is a melee class as the majority of them self root and face tank.

Edited July 14, 2014 by JackNader

[Zoom_VI]

There I fixed it for you.

 

Too bad the distance you "choose" stand from your target doesn't determine whether or not a class is ranged or we'd all have to agree that the sorc is a melee class as the majority of them self root and face tank.

 

Well I could "choose" to stand at 4m from my target as a merc, but that's not optimal. You "could" act as ranged as a PT, but its suboptimal and damage loss.

[Tevzz]

So your bring pve into a debate about the state of melee in pvp? This is the best you can do? I suggest you stick to pve mate, since you do not seem be able to debate pvp mechanics sensibly and ignore any of the points I have made. Don't expect an apology either since this is my opinion and if you believe that is somehow a slight on you as a person you should probably seek professional help.

 

I said the vanguard is a HYBRID class, emphasis being placed on melee, which any logical person can conclude - learn to read. Try not to get too upset as well, just because you cannot debate without throwing a tantrum don't expect everyone else in this thread to do the same. You will have to do better than that.

 

Oh and yes I have every class at 55 bar shadow/sin, operative/scoundrel, been playing since early access and all I do is pvp. So i have an understanding of the meta and how it works, and the difference between classes - shoot away. I like a healthy debate, but I am not sure this is possible with you, you seem to take it personally if people have a different rationale to yourself.

 

PvE or not, it still doesn't change the fact that a powertech IS NOT MELEE! The point of the 10m range is to take as less dmg as possible from the real melee classes, you know, the ones with 4m of range on their core abilities and not only rocket punch, or Retractable Blade which has to be specced into. To get something out of the way first...if the attack doesn't require you to be at 4meters, it's not melee, so when you flame burst somebody from 9m away don't think you just did a melee attack.

 

You mentioned it's a hybrid but I could also say that maras are ranged hybrids they have Vicious Throw, Deadly Throw, Force Scream, Force Choke and Dual Saber throw and those are >=10m in terms of range Oh Mah Gawd Warriors just became ranged!!! So please, a class having 1 baseline melee ability that can potentially unlock a second one while the ability they end up using the most is 10m is not a melee hybrid, they become a melee hybrid for one GCD every 9 seconds, and that isn't even necessary if they're playing Pyro.

 

Anyways screw it, I'm done arguing, it won't change anything in the end since everybody will have their own opinion of what makes a class ranged or not, and we've swayed from the main topic of this thread wayyyy too much.

 

or we'd all have to agree that the sorc is a melee class as the majority of them self root and face tank.

 

Rofl, just owned more than 3/4 of the sorc population LOL

Edited July 14, 2014 by Tevzz