What's the point of being melee in this game with the current state of PvP

[Tevzz]

So the real lesson here is that we all need to go to the shadowlands as we now know that people like Tevzz would be incredibly easy to kill after making a statement of showing that he has no clue how to play this game. I bet you're one of those PT's that uses unload huh?

 

Nawh, but I'm also one of these PT's that doesn't stay in 4m range for more than a RB and auto-crit Rail Shot proc unless I need them unlike many other derps do when they're fighting Warriors/Knights so please, keep staying in 4m range thinking you're doing just fine while continuously eating dmg you could have otherwise avoided.

 

Edit: In case you hadn't noticed, I meant that I don't feel like a melee class at all when fighting warriors//knights...against them I try to kite as much as possible only getting in melee range for procs.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Tevzz

[PloGreen]

Ok then, let's for a moment consider the possibility that melee is not 10m range it's only 4m and the only true melee is 4m range, that having only a few abilities in that range does not constitute a melee class.

 

That only leaves knights as "true melee", since a shadow (balance tree) can work his dots, lightning, interupt from 10m etc - has some abilities at 4m range but can still work within 10m (balance abilities). This would make them (by others definition, not mine) mid range classes with 4m melee attacks then or a hybrid.

But still jugs and sents have 10m abilities so it is still hard to argue this.

Ditto with ops.

 

Considering no one on their right mind would suggest jugs are in a bad spot that leaves sents/maras.

 

So therefore the premise of this thread is incorrect and it should read "what is the point in being a mara in this game with the current state of pvp?"

 

Which anyone can tell you is high damage, healing debuffs and group wide utility (transcendence, etc). Since we have gone so far off topic I think it's worth relating this argument to the topic at hand.

 

So by defining melee this way what this thread would come down to is more qq from the mara class since jugs are in a very good place right now.

Edited July 16, 2014 by PloGreen

[JackNader]

Tevz, they have "redefined" the definition of melee. It's a completely pointless discussion.

[PloGreen]

Tevz, they have "redefined" the definition of melee. It's a completely pointless discussion.

 

No that's what you have done.

[Zoom_VI]

I "redefined" the definition of melee to something that suited my own opinions

 

Fixed for you.

 

Seriously the devs already stated ages ago that powertechs, Operatives, and assassins are supposed to have a "melee" playstyle. 10m is melee, just because a single class is even shorter range than that, doesn't mean 10m isn't effectively melee.

[JackNader]

You guys define melee as 4 - 10m. Every other sane person defines melee as 4m. The real world defines melee as hand to hand combat. The real world defines ranged as projectiles

 

A guy with a rifle and bayonet attachment is NOT melee.

 

A knife wielding bandit who picks up the odd chair to throw is MELEE.

 

You guys have lumped PT's in the same boat as jugs and marauders and completely ignored the fact that any PT worth a grain of salt will kite the **** out of a jug / marauder. The simple fact that the PT can KITE with almost no loss of damage and a massive increase in survivability is what separates it as ranged from melee. Jug's and marauders can't kite anything. They MUST stand 4m away from their target or their survivability and damage goes into the toilet.

 

/END THREAD

Edited July 16, 2014 by JackNader

[Tevzz]

So by defining melee this way what this thread would come down to is more qq from the mara class

 

All your post made a lot of sense and honestly, I feel like Operatives/sins/PTs are close-mid-ranged classes with different amounts of emphasis on melee attacks for each of them. And if we look a t the other threads around the PvP forums...it would seem that the issue with people is EXACTLY the part of your post that I have quoted, and I think we both agree on the fact that there has been an increasing number of threads lately in which people have been expressing their discontent with the Mara class' survivability.

 

You guys define melee as 4 - 10m. Every other sane person defines melee as 4m. The real world defines melee as hand to hand combat. The real world defines ranged as projectiles

 

A guy with a rifle and bayonet attachment is NOT melee.

 

A knife wielding bandit who picks up the odd chair to throw is MELEE.

 

You guys have lumped PT's in the same boat as jugs and marauders and completely ignored the fact that any PT worth a grain of salt will kite the **** out of a jug / marauder. The simple fact that the PT can KITE with almost no loss of damage and a massive increase in survivability is what separates it as ranged from melee. Jug's and marauders can't kite anything. They MUST stand 4m away from their target or their survivability and damage goes into the toilet.

 

/END THREAD

 

^^^This, especially the last paragraph, I agree a lot with.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Tevzz

[Raazmir]

That makes them the outlier, not the definition.

[Zoom_VI]

I'm flabbergasted that this ever became a debate at all. I made one comment that I assumed would generate almost no comments since in all my time on the forums and in game I have never EVER seen the notion that a powertech is anything other than melee. Used to be anyone suggesting PT is not a melee class would be laughed out of the thread, but I guess this thread is what happens when all the good players leave, and all the mediocre come in.

 

Hell there are dev replies from the games early history where they come out and state that powertechs are indented to be a melee focused class.

[PloGreen]

You guys define melee as 4 - 10m. Every other sane person defines melee as 4m. The real world defines melee as hand to hand combat. The real world defines ranged as projectiles

 

A guy with a rifle and bayonet attachment is NOT melee.

 

A knife wielding bandit who picks up the odd chair to throw is MELEE.

 

You guys have lumped PT's in the same boat as jugs and marauders and completely ignored the fact that any PT worth a grain of salt will kite the **** out of a jug / marauder. The simple fact that the PT can KITE with almost no loss of damage and a massive increase in survivability is what separates it as ranged from melee. Jug's and marauders can't kite anything. They MUST stand 4m away from their target or their survivability and damage goes into the toilet.

 

/END THREAD

 

So what are ops and shadows then? Mid range classes?

[Zoom_VI]

So what are ops and shadows then? Mid range classes?

 

Dat ranged operative deeps so good yo

[chillshock]

So what are ops and shadows then? Mid range classes?

 

Does being able to hit with a rifle make the fighter a melee?

Does being able to throw a knife make the fighter a ranged?

 

God, how dense can anyone be?

 

The clue to understanding this is: Melee is defined as the opposite of ranged.

A "Ranged" is one who's abilities allow him to operate outside of a contrahends (effective) range.

In reality 'melee' is unorganized mostly contact combat. But there is a 'melee range' i.e. for fighter planes or battleships. However melee also defines hand-to-hand combat. Or in the instructors words: "melee is when you are so close that aiming is for p*ssies!"

 

Now it should be pretty easy to figure out what class is what considering (non-afk oponents)

• Marauder: Melee (you can not win without getting in closest range possible)
  
• Sniper: Range (you can win while staying out of range of the oponent (duh!))
  
• Operative: Melee (you can not stay out of reach of any class and win)
  
• Pyro-PT: Ranged (you can stay out of reach for some classes and win)
  

 

So: If range is a factor that can disable an oponent in a fight (or severly hinder his options) it is RANGED. Hence "not melee". If range is no option, it is melee.

 

So two players of the same class in 1on1 are basically always in melee combat (within their system). If you break it down to their abilities: you might end up with "melee" and "ranged" abilities: the ones that can get locked out via range: Melee. The other ones: Ranged.

 

If two Pyro PT fight. You can decide if you consider 4 or 10m melee.

 

If you add a 4m-only-class Pyro is ranged (considering the 4m only).

 

If you add a 30m class that one could Consider the Pyro whole set of 10m abilities as melee, as it defines the range at wich the pyro is locked out of efficiency.

 

Also: Argueing about something this easy to understand and hard to define is really an epitome of dense.

[masih_ad_dajjal]

bads pretending they good? FUN read

[PloGreen]

Does being able to hit with a rifle make the fighter a melee?

Does being able to throw a knife make the fighter a ranged?

 

God, how dense can anyone be?

 

The clue to understanding this is: Melee is defined as the opposite of ranged.

A "Ranged" is one who's abilities allow him to operate outside of a contrahends (effective) range.

In reality 'melee' is unorganized mostly contact combat. But there is a 'melee range' i.e. for fighter planes or battleships. However melee also defines hand-to-hand combat. Or in the instructors words: "melee is when you are so close that aiming is for p*ssies!"

 

Now it should be pretty easy to figure out what class is what considering (non-afk oponents)

• Marauder: Melee (you can not win without getting in closest range possible)
  
• Sniper: Range (you can win while staying out of range of the oponent (duh!))
  
• Operative: Melee (you can not stay out of reach of any class and win)
  
• Pyro-PT: Ranged (you can stay out of reach for some classes and win)
  

 

So: If range is a factor that can disable an oponent in a fight (or severly hinder his options) it is RANGED. Hence "not melee". If range is no option, it is melee.

 

So two players of the same class in 1on1 are basically always in melee combat (within their system). If you break it down to their abilities: you might end up with "melee" and "ranged" abilities: the ones that can get locked out via range: Melee. The other ones: Ranged.

 

If two Pyro PT fight. You can decide if you consider 4 or 10m melee.

 

If you add a 4m-only-class Pyro is ranged (considering the 4m only).

 

If you add a 30m class that one could Consider the Pyro whole set of 10m abilities as melee, as it defines the range at wich the pyro is locked out of efficiency.

 

Also: Argueing about something this easy to understand and hard to define is really an epitome of dense.

 

So we are now resorting to personal attacks are we? Such an intelligent response.

 

You didn't answer the question either you just made a cheap remark - calling me dense and then you basically said that a pyro pt is ranged class because it can kite a jedi knight with a 6m difference. This is what you consider a range class? Good god man. Any melee class can still reach you within 10m, that is effective melee range. This is why melee classes have snares, pushes etc at that range. A pt a ranged class? Yet you say compared to a 30m they are melee.

Every class that best operates between 4-10m is considered melee in this game. If you have not figured that out and you actually have to bring in "real world" examples to illustrate a point about mechanics in a computer game then I think you should probably refrain from calling anyone else that disagrees with you "dense". It makes you look like a childish pillock.

 

All of the classes that are considered melee in this game are most effective within 4-10m.

 

Range classes are 30m plus,and most of their high damage abilities are from this ranged. They maintain the gap anyway they can, knockback, snares, roots etc. and a melee player must close the gap in order to prevent them killing them. This is the meta, show me a pt, shadow, jk, op that does not need to do this. They all do, therefore they are melee, not range.

 

Unbelievable.

Edited July 16, 2014 by PloGreen

[chillshock]

Sorry, if you felt this was personal. But refusing to just accept the obvious is no less an insult to everyone.

 

Or would you disagree with the revelation of melee being ... well... 'melee attacks' ... being 4m in swtor?

[PloGreen]

Sorry, if you felt this was personal. But refusing to just accept the obvious is no less an insult to everyone.

 

Or would you disagree with the revelation of melee being ... well... 'melee attacks' ... being 4m in swtor?

 

Melee range is 4-10m should be obvious, since all of the classes considered melee are most effective within that range, range classes avoid that range like the plague. That is the difference in this game.

 

You are talking about the difference between range 30-35m and melee which is 4-10m. A ranged class is more effective because they keep you at bay, pts, shadows, ops, jks are more effective in melee range than range are at 4-10m. Do you disagree with this statement?

 

If you honestly can't see that then I don't know what to tell you.

Edited July 16, 2014 by PloGreen

[JackNader]

SAny melee class can still reach you within 10m, that is effective melee range. This is why melee classes have snares, pushes etc at that range. .

 

Why do you keep saying this.

 

Hate to break it to you, but any melee class can reach you at ANY range. If they couldn't, there would be absolutely no point in playing a melee class.

 

A ranged class is more effective because they keep you at bay, pts, shadows, ops, jks are more effective in melee range than range are at 4-10m

 

Define "more effective." Be very careful in what you say here. If you state that the ranged class is more effective because its survivability increases drastically without compromising much damage by staying at range then you MUST apply the same logic to the powertech when it is fighting classes with shorter range. You don't get to pick and choose here.

Edited July 16, 2014 by JackNader

[chillshock]

Melee range is 4-10m should be obvious ...

Do you disagree with this statement?

 

If you honestly can't see that then I don't know what to tell you.

 

I see your point not contradicting my statement of melee in general meaning "range where only one of the two contrahends can use their primary attacks". So we agree there?

 

Now there is still the point that in swtor "melee" is the range that you can whack someone with a lightsaber, vibroblade, powerglove, electrostaff - so anything up to 4m. While anything that shoots beyond that is ranged. There is absolutely no problem calling the PT melee from a snipers perspective. But from a marauders perspective a pyro is a ranged class. And really is doesn't matter beyond that if you talk to someone about melee, and you mean 'including pyro' you will most likely be misunderstood. AP might actually be even more difficult to say. Neeless to say: this is due to the hybrid mix of their attacks.

 

So, can we agree: everyone is right! But it absolutely depends on what you are and who you are up against!

 

Gerneral understanding of it however is: "whack em" = melee vs "shoot em" = ranged.

 

I have an idea: lets call the 4 to 10m "close range". That way we can differentiate between melee, close-range and ranged and all be happy AND understood.

[PloGreen]

Why do you keep saying this.

 

Hate to break it to you, but any melee class can reach you at ANY range. If they couldn't, there would be absolutely no point in playing a melee class.

 

 

 

Define "more effective." Be very careful in what you say here. If you state that the ranged class is more effective because its survivability increases drastically without compromising much damage by staying at range then you MUST apply the same logic to the powertech when it is fighting classes with shorter range. You don't get to pick and choose here.

 

 

 

Ok dude, let's see how you do keeping me in melee range from 30 metres, u can leap to me once if you a jug or sent, oh look I have sped away and rooted you if ir not vengeance/vig (with added 4 sec cc immunity). Push me if you are lucky for a second leap on a jug but you can not push me at 30 metres can you?

Nope. Can you use force crush on me from 30 metres, and build up 3 stacks to smash using this skill nope. Can you use obliterate on me from 30 metres - nope, you use them at 10. Why? Why can you not use these skills at 30m? Because you are not ranged. Your most effective abilities are on the 10m range.

 

Shadows? They can force speed to me, I can force speed away. They can pebble me at 10m, my range is 20m more, though they have 10m range on their snare and interupt thru still use saber attacks and are still considered melee, as are ops. Both these class's have attacks in the 10m range. Both are considered melee.

 

A pt in comparison has a pull to put me in melee range (big clue), an interupt at 4m, rocket punch and large burst abilities in the 10m range. The difference between a pt kiting a jug is 6m.... Wow such huge range. oh look I can push, snare, and obliterate to that pt because he is trying to kite me at 10 metres. Just a matter of timing and waiting for them to use hydraulics because oh yes I can also leap to that pt from 30m.

 

10m is therefore a much more effective range for melee classes, than range ones. Unless ofc you think they are more effective at 30m? Can't wait to hear you explain this one. Good luck.

Edited July 16, 2014 by PloGreen

[Leafy_Bug]

uhmm my shadow can pebble from 30m, dunno why others can't . Also I can force lift from 30m because I am level 60! Edited July 16, 2014 by Leafy_Bug

[PloGreen]

uhmm my shadow can pebble from 30m, dunno why others can't . Also I can force lift from 30m because I am level 60!

 

Can he? My bad thought it was 10m. Though a shadow is still considered melee so I must be wrong they are clearly a range class then because they can pebble from 30m! Oh my goodness every class is ranged because they have 30m abilities..

[Zoom_VI]

Ok dude, let's see how you do keeping me in melee range from 30 metres, u can leap to me once if you a jug or sent, oh look I have sped away and rooted you if ir not vengeance/vig (with added 4 sec cc immunity). Push me if you are lucky for a second leap on a jug but you can not push me at 30 metres can you?

Nope. Can you use force crush on me from 30 metres, and build up 3 stacks to smash using this skill nope. Can you use obliterate on me from 30 metres - nope, you use them at 10. Why? Why can you not use these skills at 30m? Because you are not ranged. Your most effective abilities are on the 10m range.

 

Why the hell is a warrior opening with leap? That's bad. The only time a warrior should open with leap is if they are veng or are attacking another melee. You use other gap closers so you can save the leap for after the target force speds away.

[JackNader]

Would you like me to quote you again PLO

 

then you basically said that a pyro pt is ranged class because it can kite a jedi knight with a 6m difference. This is what you consider a range class? Good god man. Any melee class can still reach you within 10m, that is effective melee range. This is why melee classes have snares, pushes etc at that range. A pt a ranged class?

 

Every single melee class in this game has 30m abilities. They can reach you at ANY range. If they couldn't, melee would be hands down fodder for ranged classes and absolutely nobody would play them.

 

In terms of range: PT is to Sorc as Jug is to PT.

 

Therefore

 

Sorc = Long range

PT = Short range

Jug = Melee

 

Your inability to understand this is scarey.

 

This is the problem. You've lumped PT into the same bracket as a Jug. Do you face tank melee on your Sorc? No. Why on earth do you expect PT's to face tank jugs instead of exploiting their range advantage. It doesn't matter if the jug can "reach" the pt. He is expected to reach the PT at some point. The purpose of kiting the jug around is to lock him out of abilities which he would readily have access too if you just stood right next to him and face tanked. These abilities are primarily the jugs rage builders. This is why you cannot say 4 - 10m is melee. It isn't.

Edited July 16, 2014 by JackNader

[Zoom_VI]

Generally speaking in gaming melee is defined as "short range" Saying a PT is short range is no different than saying it is melee, you are just redefining terms to match your opinions

[JackNader]

Generally speaking in gaming melee is defined as "short range" Saying a PT is short range is no different than saying it is melee, you are just redefining terms to match your opinions

 

No that is what you are doing.

 

Do you call a guy wearing a dress a girl? or almost a girl?