So Operative/Scoundrel has knockdown removed, but Assassin/Shadow get to keep theirs

[Raansu]

Sure ya did. Oh the drama, the QQ.

 

If you can't make scrapper work with a root instead of a knockdown, you're the "bad".

 

I absolutely did. Whether you believe me or not is your problem not mine.

 

As for making it work...I probably could in regs and probably 1v1 and would probably easily kill you and make you cry more about the spec.... In ranked though? Why bother? Even currently in 2.6 when I see a scrapper in ranked we all focus him first. I've never seen a scrapper do well, not even the good ones in ranked because news flash, the spec is garbage and I cringe when I see one on my time as it pretty much means 3v4 for us. I'd rather have a watchman sentinel on my team than a scrapper. Hell I'll take a commando dps over a scrapper. At least they have e-net.

 

And the knockdown removal wasn't the main reason. I'm literally just sick and tired of playing a spec that can't even go one patch without being immediately nerfed again. So many ill-informed players with extreme biased hate toward a spec that isn't even any good and doesn't even compare to its deception counter part. The spec got nerfed 4 patches in a row, then it gets one "ok" buff and people scream bloody murder yet the assassin around the corner is doing the exact same thing but with more consistency and even an extra CC and no one says a word. But dem stunlocking scrappers be OP yo.... /sarcasm

 

So ya, I'm done with it and I deleted him.

[Aebrynis]

Hmmm...figures. I get my scoundrel to 55, get her some nice Conq/Obroan gear...and this happens. Well, looks like it's time to hang up the ol' scattergun soon and go level my sage. EAWare isn't going to reverse this brain-dead decision, so there's no sense dwelling on it.

[Campaigner]

As for making it work...I probably could in regs and probably 1v1 and would probably easily kill you and make you cry more about the spec.... In ranked though? Why bother? Even currently in 2.6 when I see a scrapper in ranked we all focus him first. I've never seen a scrapper do well, not even the good ones in ranked because news flash, the spec is garbage and I cringe when I see one on my time as it pretty much means 3v4 for us. I'd rather have a watchman sentinel on my team than a scrapper. Hell I'll take a commando dps over a scrapper. At least they have e-net.

 

And the knockdown removal wasn't the main reason. I'm literally just sick and tired of playing a spec that can't even go one patch without being immediately nerfed again. So many ill-informed players with extreme biased hate toward a spec that isn't even any good and doesn't even compare to its deception counter part. The spec got nerfed 4 patches in a row, then it gets one "ok" buff and people scream bloody murder yet the assassin around the corner is doing the exact same thing but with more consistency and even an extra CC and no one says a word. But dem stunlocking scrappers be OP yo.... /sarcasm

 

So ya, I'm done with it and I deleted him.

 

Haha, it really is quite sad, but anyone having played concealment long enough knows the spec is cursed.

 

Ever since I first heard we were getting a damage buff I knew the devs were just setting us up for another mega nerf.

[Cempa]

...but OP can heal to full!

[ayobreezie]

...but OP can heal to full!

 

They can! I once played against an op and I got him down to 10%, he rolled away, healed to full and obliterated me with Rifle Shot.

[sauerkraut]

The current 2.7 PTS build removes the knockdown from Hidden Strike, replacing it with a root. This is going to neuter Concealment Operative players in any form of a competitive environment.

 

Meanwhile, Assassin's are keeping the knockdown on Spike...... if I was an Operative player I would be livid.

 

 

2 specs, same overall role, but a huge disparity in overall effectiveness. Bioware, do not let this go live. Catering to bads is never, ever the proper way to balance the game.

 

I would cry a river but I am to busy to feel sorry for the smash nerf, which will neuter Rage build but I guess that's OK with you.

[PBoba]

Why focus on the assassin? Or even the knock down?

As an operative, I get pulled, leaped to (no cover protection, remember?), grappled, force choked, knocked back (some on 20/30/40s cooldown) constantly, every warzone, all the time. Off platforms, out of range of targets, out of guard, mid heal, no holding the line, no fraction of defense. No cool down, no choice. No equivalent. And these aren't perks - most of these are basic "defenses" and iconic skills available for a whole AC.

All this, but I don't complain. Those are good players playing their Ac properly.

 

So how, how does the only thing that comes close to similar for an op - but is single target, and is a perk you have to buy into at the top of one single tree, is iconic, and is crucial to the best use of your level 36 skill (HS is already problematic for a medic, anyway) get so screwed over when everyone else gets these QoL powers for "free"?

 

As others have said, if you take off the KD, root is useless without some sorta hold-the-line effect so the first counter isn't a punt or whatever. We've already seen this in the Quesh HB pit.

 

This isn't a QQ, Don't nerf anyones KBs etc. I just wish devs would think what they're doing to ops. And to put it in context, my op hasn't got exfiltrate yet (these changes look good), which is maddening for QoL in mid-rank warzones, our only real utility, esp since OS was nerfed. How a dev expects an op to smile through 40 levels of knockbacks and pulls to see its only tiny KD neutered is beyond me. Maybe they'll put something back when they raise the level cap, but giving back something you broke is no sort of reward for leveling up.

 

IMO, the entire AC needs some sort of CD vs KB and interrupts, and a perk, maybe on sneak (but might be OP with the reduced cd out of stealth) that'll make you immune to aoe for a few seconds to get into range for the opener. So when you really, really need to strike, you can spend a 2min CD or something to make it happen, and not have your entire purpose foiled by a passive interrupt. The whole AC needs this.

Edited March 5, 2014 by PBoba

[Neoforcer]

let me explain were the problem is with why there nerfing Hidden Strike

 

Lowered the cost of Hidden Strike to 15 energy (down from 17 energy), increased its cooldown to 9 seconds (up from 7.5 seconds), and increased the damage it deals

 

The bold is the problem sin spike does 800 maybe 1100 damage as a knock down. Lets put a knockdown on maul every time i use it see if it does not break the class. Spike damage has never been increased as a buff to sin dps. Your Hidden Strike got a buff in damage i think what the devs are saying you cant have both cc and a increase. There saying you cant have a harder hitting ability with a knockdown tied to it.

 

The nerf them too argument is invalid in this situation it like comparing apple to oranges.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Neoforcer

[Macroeconomics]

This is undoubtably a nerf for those concealment operatives that always seek out 1v1 attacks. But the damage buff and KB removal is actually a net BUFF for operatives that work with another stealther. An operative working with an assassin now does more burst and still knocks the target down. Operatives just need to get out of the mindset of being a lone wolf.

[Kognos]

let me explain were the problem is with why there nerfing Hidden Strike

 

Lowered the cost of Hidden Strike to 15 energy (down from 17 energy), increased its cooldown to 9 seconds (up from 7.5 seconds), and increased the damage it deals

 

The bold is the problem sin spike does 800 maybe 1100 damage as a knock down. Lets put a knockdown on maul every time i use it see if it does not break the class. Spike damage has never been increased as a buff to sin dps. Your Hidden Strike got a buff in damage i think what the devs are saying you cant have both cc and a increase. There saying you cant have a harder hitting ability with a knockdown tied to it.

 

The nerf them too argument is invalid in this situation it like comparing apple to oranges.

 

Comparing stealth classes is apples to apples, sins have actual DCD's, more CC, better burst and arguably better utility if they use their taunts vs an operative's 2.5 sec channeled heals. Yeah we have different skills, I would love to see your reaction if they turned maul into hidden strike, complete with knockdown, ~15% less dmg, 9 sec timer and stealth requirement to use.

 

Bottom line if operatives, the softest target in PvP, should only have 2 roots, 1 hard stun, 1 interrupt (that is going to work less and less often with each patch it seems) and 1 mez then what should sins have for cc when they're top 3-4 for DCD's? It's a valid topic of discussion with the current trend of sweeping melee nerfs and ranged buffs it seems like they've forgotten you.

[Aetideus]

Leave the Ops alone. There are so many buffs for the ranged classes in 2.7 that there is no need to nerf melee classes that way.

Moderate smash nerf also. In a similar balance <1.2, tanks could not shield f/t attacks. 2.7 tanks + ranged may end up to dull 8x8.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Aetideus

[discbox]

The whole thread is basically a "waaaaaa scrapper got nerfed, so make assassin miserable".

 

Assassin is 100% fine as is.

 

Your whole post is like "Muhaha you got nerfed, so my assassin kann agian kill you with rolling my fist over the keyboard, muhawhaw!"

[Darth_Sookie]

I play concealment operative. The problem is when you face someone without their Break Free up it's possible to: Hidden Strike 2s > Stun 4s > Root 2s >Vanish in to Another hidden strike. If many of these crit you practically CC lock someone to death.

 

They should just make Hidden Strike be usable out of combat and make the CD 15 seconds without any CC component.

[Cordorian]

This is undoubtably a nerf for those concealment operatives that always seek out 1v1 attacks. But the damage buff and KB removal is actually a net BUFF for operatives that work with another stealther. An operative working with an assassin now does more burst and still knocks the target down. Operatives just need to get out of the mindset of being a lone wolf.

 

But this teaming up was exactly what made this forum get mental and causing the nerf.

People were complaining about being assaulted by multiple stealther and be obliterated before they could do anything.

 

To me the nerf just doesn't make sense, basically every class already has the chance to interrupt the opening burst some kind of knock back, mez, stun or immunity. Decent player already make 1v1 for concealment quite some challenge. As it was mentioned by a lot in this thread already operatives are squishy and out of stealth cc basically is your only real defense. Turning the knockdown into a root therefore is a nerf of the defenses of concealment. Against melee it is pointless, because melee normally wants you close range anyway, against ranged it is pointless, because all ranged classes have knockbacks and methods of keeping the distance then.

With the backstab without positional requirement , which as datamined can be used up to 5s after HS, is a massive joke, both in pve and pvp, acid blade lasts 6 seconds!!!! So probably they want us the use it immediately after HS now and clip acid blade, use it without acid blade.... backstab has a 12s CD...s.t. you will not maximize the uptime of acid blade unless you snitch in another hidden strike (way too) early which both really is non optimal or this is already taking into account that the whole opener will get screwed over anyway.

 

about the lone wolf paradigm, was the result of the spec being incapable of participating in a group fight - you can sometimes pull that off... but very favorable situations need to be in place - because it is squishy and usually gets targeted straight after opening (guard and healing won't save you from dieing quickly then). so most concealment players resorted to harassing off nodes, looking out for 1v1 or finishing off the already wounded, simply because otherwise you are just a free kill (just for the record deception assassin can handle the main fight more easily and much bigger overall utility ... that's why they always had a place in ranked), Hence it is pointless to even try any form of ranked as scrapper/concealment in the arena format (in pure PuG you can sometimes get away with stuff, but only if people are too focused on killing your healer or the sage and somehow forgot how squishy operatives are).

As nice as it sounds, but the spec has zero group utility so no ranked and in normal wzs you would not sacrifice two stealthers to harass a node in most situations. Without actual defensive buffs (and no the changes to roll and shield probe, are no such things), the main find still isn't the place for concealment operative (my estimate) 70% of the time.

 

 

 

Personally, I have just after enjoying scrapper for the last two months, switch back to healing yesterday. I tend to really love my toons, so she will not get deleted, but for me there is no point in playing scrapper anymore (I was there earlier, just nostaligia drove me back to the spec again), when 2.7 hits. Might be that those few remaining scrappers and concealments will find a way around it, which i cannot yet see. Player that don't know how deal with the spec will still be easy kills (but basically they are for every spec), I might focus more on playing shadow and assassin, since probably sentinel will not be much fun straight after 2.7 hits (not the smash nerfs, but probably everybody playing ranged for a few weeks, that is a living nightmare when you play Combat).

 

 

about assassins.... well unlike operatives they are not as reliant on the opener and actual stunlocking (they can still do that, even more efficient than operatives, but that is a different story), since it is not one of their main damage dealers. They can avoid the intial backlash that is to be expected (stun, mez, knockback), with shroud. At to that 2 of the main attacks are 10m range, they can kite better offensively. Yes yes, their sustained is worse, but they have an insanely good opening burst, and great survival tool to make up for it (their little heal actually is more useful than all the heals concealment has to offer). And low slash is just too good. So as some already said, you dont even need to open with spike and can still cc your way to a kill .

[PBoba]

I play concealment operative. The problem is when you face someone without their Break Free up it's possible to: Hidden Strike 2s > Stun 4s > Root 2s >Vanish in to Another hidden strike. If many of these crit you practically CC lock someone to death.

 

They should just make Hidden Strike be usable out of combat and make the CD 15 seconds without any CC component.

 

Or make HS a 30 second cooldown or something.

[Neoforcer]

Comparing stealth classes is apples to apples, sins have actual DCD's, more CC, better burst and arguably better utility if they use their taunts vs an operative's 2.5 sec channeled heals. Yeah we have different skills, I would love to see your reaction if they turned maul into hidden strike, complete with knockdown, ~15% less dmg, 9 sec timer and stealth requirement to use.

 

Bottom line if operatives, the softest target in PvP, should only have 2 roots, 1 hard stun, 1 interrupt (that is going to work less and less often with each patch it seems) and 1 mez then what should sins have for cc when they're top 3-4 for DCD's? It's a valid topic of discussion with the current trend of sweeping melee nerfs and ranged buffs it seems like they've forgotten you.

 

Yet your not a tank class either your a pure dps/healing class while i agree nerfing a class is not always the best. OP should of never really had a big dps increase in the first place when every one was asking for a survivability increase. Op were not the low man in raids or pvp as a dps class they were the squishiest class next to sorcs.

 

But the dev decided they were low on dps and no one wanted to bring a class into rank, raids or any where else. OP dps needed more heals then tanks do to stay alive because there so soft. They did the wrong buff as per what you all were asking for in the first place. A slight increase in dps and maybe a finisher move like assassinate they did not listen and now a nerf is incoming. Because the devs do the wrong buff in the first place that why i am saying it apples to oranges to compare the 2 classes.

 

You want to talk about sin it is by fare one of the worst class to get sustain dps on still is what they did to buff us was not enough sustained and a week burst increase in the first place to a burst class. The were better off buffing saber strike for sustain then force cost of maul. Buff some thing i have to use as a filler to regain force would of added more sustained dps and less burst. But again did they listen to that no. SO saying hey sin should loose spike are spike does not do the damage of you hidden strike. What does hidden strike hit for on a opener? I can tell you it about what are maul hits for. I Rather them give you a spike ability that did hardly no damage as a open cc then give you guys a maul like ability. Instead of tieing the two together in one hit that bad design.

 

Doing these things instead of what was done would have felt more inline with how the class should be played and make them more sin like people can easily survive a sin burst. Most of the time people don't survive your burst opener which lead to QQ and nerfs

 

Bottom line if operatives, the softest target in PvP, should only have 2 roots, 1 hard stun, 1 interrupt (that is going to work less and less often with each patch it seems) and 1 mez then what should sins have for cc when they're top 3-4 for DCD's? It's a valid topic of discussion with the current trend of sweeping melee nerfs and ranged buffs it seems like they've forgotten you.

 

The 3 dcd are actually 2 dcd on a sin deflection and shroud one does not work with internal elemental damage like pyro the third dcd is a stealth in combat which you have. They nerf a more useless melee class like sin it is all ready low man when it come to sustained dps. No one wants them in raid when 98% of the other class still out dps a sin. Try getting a raid spot when your class does 2900 dps per second and every other class is in the 3500 or more dps per second. The only thing sin are good for is 1v1 duals. Hence whay there always asked to node guard over your class.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Neoforcer

[JouerTue]

if you die against an operative it's not because of the KD..as if you going to burst down someone is not because of the KD..this goes at least for the majority of players i think ( cosider please an operative being actually able to finish someone).

 

i agree with the point of the humiliation factor this ability brings up..if the KD would have the animation of pain or fear, it would be similiar to some of the other hard stuns we have outthere but i doubt wed have the same amount of QQ threads..think about a jugg tank for example..that buid has 2 non channeled hard stuns, which are for control and in the meanwhile the jugg is not doing those bad things to your butt like OP try to do..but also he certainly doesn't put your hepic mara on the dust laughing at you..i know how these whiners feel, it's like during raids when you pull ppl with your age/sorc..nobody wants to be phisically controlled that way..because ppl don't feel struggled like with a force push, or a sage KB..they feel more impotence than with any other abilities..and this is one they can cry rivers about..you can't do anything against a shadow/pt pull in the fire, but hell i they can change the eating dust move in oh..root..like any other dps class can do..and how they are used to feel.

 

i've always healed on my op and on my scoundrel, but when i wanted to go dps i've always chosen those builds we are discussing..i've never felt chained to KD to succed, like i've never felt scared or humiliated or condamned by taking it on another toon..it was just a fun part of a fun class..i'm sorry to see this changed..ops feel already a lot squishier than they should imo..but i like the changes to exfiltrate..two rolls keep the potential in a combat situation while taking away the abuse factor

[JackNader]

Give concealment operatives the equivalent of unstoppable when coming out of stealth for 4 seconds and 25% dr. This at least makes up for the loss of hidden strikes guaranteed 2nd GCD attack and gives concealment just enough survivability to make a difference. Edited March 5, 2014 by JackNader

[IInox]

erm our knockbacks deal 1000 and ~2000 dmg. our stun 1000.

 

the ops's knockback how much?

 

it's a different thing, you knockback while doing ur "burst rotation".

 

PS: I never asked for a ops nerf, I'm just clarifying maybe, "why" you get this nerf. imho.

[CrazyOldMystic]

I have said it before and ill keep on saying its. Operatives/scoundrels always abuse their class when they get buffed up by targeting the same weak classes/players regardless of what is going on in the warzone for the easy Kill. This is why your knockdown is getting removed. You guys love to stun lock someone on the ground after you have knocked them down to the ground. For the most part assassins/shadows play the pvp match they dont stalk easy kills. Also if you pvped you would be aware of a glitch that roots a player in place when they get back up from a knockdown. The assassin/shadow knockdown last I looked was on a decently long cool down, and requires them to be cloaked in order to use it.

[CaptainApop]

The assassin/shadow knockdown last I looked was on a decently long cool down, and requires them to be cloaked in order to use it.

 

Compared to hidden strike... which is on a cooldown and requires stealth to use. Semantics however.

 

As to the rest of your post you're basically calling all operatives a bunch of ***** and that they deserve to be nerfed not due to balance but because they are doing the one thing their spec is actually good at. Hit and runs on weaker classes/players that allow them to re-stealth after combat. Do you not realise how butthurt that makes you sound?

 

Operatives still can't take an active role in group fights because incidental aoe and focus fire annihilate them before the healers can do anything about it. To say nothing of nigh randomlt placed AoEs taking them out of stealth before they even think of opening.

Edited March 5, 2014 by CaptainApop

[Endel]

. For the most part assassins/shadows play the pvp match they dont stalk easy kills

 

So in other words you say that OP's/Scoundrels in wz's only look for easy kills while Shadows/assasins play objectives not looking for easy kills?

 

Please don't post on the internet again if it's something equally irrational, so far away from truth and so much against any kind of objectivity and logic.

[Aehgo]

Do shadows/sins actually use Spike as an opener?

I mean ok if you are vs a baddie and think he might break it then ok,but otherwise its more effective to open with discharge imo...and it fills alot of resolve for a 1.5? kd...

[Vipex]

Ok it is time to learn difference of these two skills.

Screenshots taken minmaxed pvp gear assasin and moderate pvp geared(healing specced operative)

http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab111/viipe/learn_difference.jpg

 

Nuff said...

[Aehgo]

Ok it is time to learn difference of these two skills.

Screenshots taken minmaxed pvp gear assasin and moderate pvp geared(healing specced operative)

http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab111/viipe/learn_difference.jpg

 

Nuff said...

 

And Concealment get a surge/crit buff to HS dont they?