Remove Premades NOW!

[Keyran-Halcyon]

I don't get these threads... do people not understand this is an mmo (Massively Multiplayer online) game... So its designed to play with other people, find groups and guilds, and en general have fun playing a game with and against people. So why should premades not be allowed in regular warzones??? I think perhaps the ones crying about this are the ones that are so socially awkward they can't even make friends in an online game, so they think its unfair that other people don't have the same issue.

 

I find that usually 99.99% of the time a pug team looses, has nothing to do with going against a premade, but rather that 4-6 players on the pug team are morons that get tunnel vision and just run around attacking any enemy, regardless of the objectives.

[Ybini]

*snip* I think perhaps the ones crying about this are the ones that are so socially awkward they can't even make friends in an online game, so they think its unfair that other people don't have the same issue.

*snip*

 

Not everyone that solo queues does it because they're socially awkward, sometimes they just can't commit to a group because they may have to step away from the keyboard often, can't commit a large amount of time,have computer issues they can't resolve on their own,etc. Ideally that would be the solution, but not everyones situation is ideal.

[Keyran-Halcyon]

Not everyone that solo queues does it because they're socially awkward, sometimes they just can't commit to a group because they may have to step away from the keyboard often, can't commit a large amount of time,have computer issues they can't resolve on their own,etc. Ideally that would be the solution, but not everyones situation is ideal.

 

Oh I know not everyone that solo queue's are like that. I personally solo queue most of the time, because I am a casual player now and play at random times so its hard to find groups that correspond to when I am playing. But I'm not complaining about premades, I don't think they are an issue. A skilled pug team can still easily beat a premade, I've done it plenty of times.

 

I was mainly saying that about the people who QQ about premades in regular warzones.

[mulzii]

I don't get these threads... do people not understand this is an mmo (Massively Multiplayer online) game... So its designed to play with other people, find groups and guilds, and en general have fun playing a game with and against people. So why should premades not be allowed in regular warzones??? I think perhaps the ones crying about this are the ones that are so socially awkward they can't even make friends in an online game, so they think its unfair that other people don't have the same issue.

 

I find that usually 99.99% of the time a pug team looses, has nothing to do with going against a premade, but rather that 4-6 players on the pug team are morons that get tunnel vision and just run around attacking any enemy, regardless of the objectives.

 

There is no where that states MMO requires a group to play. I pay/play for dynamic content, human targets, dynamic ecomony, etc. You premade folks already have specific content directly aimed at you: flashpoints, operations, heriocs, etc. Why can pvp be open to everyone on an even/level balanced field?

 

To use your argument, why don't you, in your social-greatness, get a bunch of friends and play in the ranked queues?

There is a premade queue, its the ranked queue.

 

But no, most premades do not want that, because there is too much competition in ranked, and they get their butts handed to them most of the time from the really good few premades. Kinda like being a hypocrit, isnt it? That you premade folks shun the ranked queue saying its too intense, too hard, too many superior teams that live/breath pvp, and my favorite, "we just want laid back pvp", i cannot make 4 more friends to field a team of 8, or whatever ****-n-many excuse you can come up with to explain why you cant play ranked. and when the pug folks use those exact same arguments on why premades shouldnt be in the regular queue, you dismiss them as being anti-social.

 

If you cannot hack it in the ranked queue, i suggest you hone your social skills and meet/join better people/guilds to compete in the premade queue. But thats not REALLY want you premade folks want. I bet most of you spout you want good competition, blah blah blah, but what you really want is a nice easy win to get your comms/prestige/whatever, else you'd be in the ranked queue. And don't use the excuse of "i only have 5 friends, i cant play ranked" hypocrisy. Whats the different between you telling Joe that he needs to make 4 friends to make a premade for regular wzs, and me telling you you need to make 4 more friends so you can field a ranked team or 8? Having only 4 friends makes you some sort of social pariah?

 

Premades have a queue, its the ranked queue. Bioware gave them that luxury to compete against the very best competition. All regular WZs folks as asking for is the same balanced/level playing field.

 

To use something from experience, this was an issue in AoC as well. Eventually folks would just leave the WZ everytime the premades were in there and the premade would end up with no one to fight. It killed off minis for quite awhile until the premade actually started queuing solo, and minis became fun/numerous again...

[Technohic]

Not everyone that solo queues does it because they're socially awkward, sometimes they just can't commit to a group because they may have to step away from the keyboard often, can't commit a large amount of time,have computer issues they can't resolve on their own,etc. Ideally that would be the solution, but not everyones situation is ideal.

 

I am Technohic and I solo queue because I have no friends.

[Keyran-Halcyon]

There is no where that states MMO requires a group to play. I pay/play for dynamic content, human targets, dynamic ecomony, etc. You premade folks already have specific content directly aimed at you: flashpoints, operations, heriocs, etc. Why can pvp be open to everyone on an even/level balanced field?

 

To use your argument, why don't you, in your social-greatness, get a bunch of friends and play in the ranked queues?

There is a premade queue, its the ranked queue.

 

But no, most premades do not want that, because there is too much competition in ranked, and they get their butts handed to them most of the time from the really good few premades. Kinda like being a hypocrit, isnt it? That you premade folks shun the ranked queue saying its too intense, too hard, too many superior teams that live/breath pvp, and my favorite, "we just want laid back pvp", i cannot make 4 more friends to field a team of 8, or whatever ****-n-many excuse you can come up with to explain why you cant play ranked. and when the pug folks use those exact same arguments on why premades shouldnt be in the regular queue, you dismiss them as being anti-social.

 

If you cannot hack it in the ranked queue, i suggest you hone your social skills and meet/join better people/guilds to compete in the premade queue. But thats not REALLY want you premade folks want. I bet most of you spout you want good competition, blah blah blah, but what you really want is a nice easy win to get your comms/prestige/whatever, else you'd be in the ranked queue. And don't use the excuse of "i only have 5 friends, i cant play ranked" hypocrisy. Whats the different between you telling Joe that he needs to make 4 friends to make a premade for regular wzs, and me telling you you need to make 4 more friends so you can field a ranked team or 8? Having only 4 friends makes you some sort of social pariah?

 

Premades have a queue, its the ranked queue. Bioware gave them that luxury to compete against the very best competition. All regular WZs folks as asking for is the same balanced/level playing field.

 

To use something from experience, this was an issue in AoC as well. Eventually folks would just leave the WZ everytime the premades were in there and the premade would end up with no one to fight. It killed off minis for quite awhile until the premade actually started queuing solo, and minis became fun/numerous again...

 

LOL, I am not one of the premade people. I run solo queue about 99% of the time. Mainly because I play at such random times that its hard to find a group of similarly skilled players that will accept a wild card like me, since I may or may not be playing on any given day. I also enjoy the challenge of going up against premades because it tests my skills and ability to try and help coordinate a random group of people. Sometimes its fun when you have a group that pays attention to ops chat and ends up working as a team and stomping the premade. Other times it sucks because you end up with a team that just tunnel visions and doesn't play for anything other than kills.

 

Second... except for the regular quests and class missions, all the content was designed to be played with groups in mind. From regular warzones to Operations and flashpoints, to ranked warzones. Those are all designed with group play in mind, the option to queue solo was something BW added to keep solo players happy. Ranked was added after the game came out, and was designed with higher level competition in mind, BUT not designed to replace group queues for regular warzones.

 

I can understand the frustration solo players feel, but not all premades are queuing regular warzones because they lack the skill or group size to queue in ranked. Some of them are joining as a group to gain skill to be able to work towards getting into ranked. So banning any premade in regular warzones will just end up hurting pvp more then helping. Regular warzones are designed for any skill level to come and play, so they can learn how to PvP and improve their skills.

 

In all honesty all a premade really has is a team that can communicate using voice. A pug team can still use Ops chat, can still coordinate things, and still work effectively as a unit. Must pug teams just choice to ignore Ops chat and not listen to other players. That is nobody's fault but that individual player.

 

You do have valid points against some of the premade community and some of them are hypocritical, but thats not everyone.

 

One last thing, banning premades in regular warzones won't make things more even for skill vs skill. Skill is impossible to balance in a game. Even if BW does ban premades, you will still encounter players more or less skilled than yourself, and you will encounter teams that communicate better or worse than your team.

[cashogy_reborn]

i agree to removing premades from warzones under the following stipulation:

 

- remove bad players from warzones.

[Keyran-Halcyon]

i agree to removing premades from warzones under the following stipulation:

 

- remove bad players from warzones.

 

I would totally agree to this

[Emencie]

I've said it before, and Ill say it again.

 

Playing against premades sucks. There is no way around it. Even if they are a bad premade they still have a massive advantage over your pug group. Even if you happen to be in a good pug you still have to outplay the premade team because of their advantage just to be even with them. It plain sucks.

 

This is not the premade's fault, nor will it be fixed by limiting premades! that game that shall not be nammed tried to do it and what was the result? Vent queue countdowns. "1 2 3 Que! Everyone get it?" It didn't fix anything People find away around the system because they want to win and being in a premade even in a 2 man premade increases your chances. I'm a Premade runner, and I don't buy any of that BS about "I just want to play with my friend!" bump that. I want to win!

 

I cannot still believe this hasn't been fixed. Every single MMO based group PvP system has fixed this except MMORPGs Every single one doesn't have this problem, From FPS games, to tower defense games like DoTA, racing games, fighting games, strategy games, freaking Duels of the Planeswalker a CARD GAME has this magical little multiplayer fixing tool... VOIP!

 

The reason you don't see people wining about premades in every other genre of MMO pvp is because those games have taken away the largest advantage premades have... communication! when it comes down to it the reason a premade can outplay you so well is they are positioned better for your attack than you are for theirs. You can give faster more detailed instructions over VOIP than you can with text and that is a major point of premade advantage.

 

For some reason the MMORPG community, developers and players are against VOIP in game. and while I understand that game where the 12 year old wont stop about (insert annoying 12 year old topic here), can make you want to sterilize the human race. The benefits in a PvP environment far outweigh it.

 

And while there are good clans in games like COD its nice to know that if you run up against them and your team is skilled you dont have to lose just because they have better communications, because you are jacked up at 4am snorting freeze dried mountain dew™ and eating Cheetos™ while your clan is sleeping like noobs. Because you and your fellow late night gamers all have access to that same level of communication because the game gives it to you.

 

There is never a point in DOTA or CoD or any other multiplayer PvP game I have played in nearly the last 10 years where I dread jumping in solo except MMORPGs. Because no matter how good I personally am, coming up against a premade tilts the balance against me and my non premade team, often so badly that there isn't even a chance at winning.

 

When one team is 2 premades 2 healers, 2 tanks, 4 DPS vs a full 8 man PUG, 6 DPS 1 tank and 1 "oh dear god what is he wearing!?!" the odds are already stacked and the chips are down. But its the fact that they can focus fire, move to guard nodes faster, and split into perfect groups to defend when needed. People like to think that its the perfect balance of Premades that make them good. I say pffft to that. I have rolled 4 man all DPS and run 8 man DPS Warzones that we roflstomped the competition because we could focus and peel like crazy thanks to VOIP don't matter if you got a healer and a tank combo when we can drop your guarded healer in 3 GCDs, Heck sometimes less!

 

I got off on a tangent there... What was my point? oh yea...

 

VOIP! the real solution.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Emencie

[cub-lover]

I love the Changes you guys at Bioware has done so far, but one change is still missing;

 

Remove PREMADE TEAMS from regular WZ:s NOW!!

 

Freedom of choise is the only way to go. Ppl wont leave WZ as frequently as it is now and all will get the PvP of chiose.

 

i like how you and so many other players have a hard time dealing with people playing a SOCIAL GAME, and doing stuff with FRIENDS and guildmates they have so stop QQing about people being SOCIAL and playign with other SOCIAL people, you dont people complaining about playing in a premade on COD or soem crap like that

[Emencie]

you dont people complaining about playing in a premade on COD or soem crap like that

Yea... I pointed that out.

[Transcendent]

Playing against premades sucks.

 

Not always, although if your team is full of the PVP MP, then you're pretty screwed. It's certainly not an enjoyable experience.

 

You make some valid points, however more options should be added in for solo players to be able to play PVP in a solo fashion vs solo players. Without the premades, i'm sure Bioware get the data of which player is on which team, and can ensure it happens less frequently even if a "premade" all solo queues. They could randomize that to negate workarounds, same as they could do it via IP address for example.

 

It's simply the lack of trying to resolve some of the PVP issues, instead they gave us lovely Bolster in an attempt to make everyone the same level. Clearly that works well

[Paulman]

I love the Changes you guys at Bioware has done so far, but one change is still missing;

 

Remove PREMADE TEAMS from regular WZ:s NOW!!

 

Freedom of choise is the only way to go. Ppl wont leave WZ as frequently as it is now and all will get the PvP of chiose.

 

MMOs are about playing with friends. Kinda sucks if you can't do that. I'd suggest making friends. It makes the game a lot more fun.

[SomeJagoff]

I love the Changes you guys at Bioware has done so far, but one change is still missing;

 

Remove PREMADE TEAMS from regular WZ:s NOW!!

 

Freedom of choise is the only way to go. Ppl wont leave WZ as frequently as it is now and all will get the PvP of chiose.

 

Just gonna post what I posted in another thread:

 

Think you're confusing the definition of premade vs a group of 4 players.

 

1. Premade = friends/guildies + voicechat + pre designated class comp + strategies to win or desire to pugstomp.

 

2. Group = friends/guildies.

 

The problem with people who are against being able to group for regular warzones is that they don't consider option 2. Option 2 are likely those "bad premades" that solo queue pugs can beat, since they're essentially solo queuers themselves, no voice chat, no special class comp, no special strategies to win, and no die hard desire to pugstomp.

 

I have no problem with option 2 vs solo queuers. Why? Because without voicechat, stacking specific classes, using any specific map tactics, etc., it's largely even and can go either way. These matches are fun.

 

I do have a problem with option 1 vs solo queuers. Why? Because voicechat, 2 smashers + 1 pyro pt + 1 bubblestunner (popular comp for reg pugstomping pre-2.0), and specific map tactics, it's largely uneven and a pugstomping by the premade. These matches are not fun.

 

This is why the premade issue won't ever be addressed by Bioware:

 

If you ban groups from solo queue, you will certainly ban the pugstomping premades (good), but you will also ban the regular groups of friends/guildies who are bored and want to pvp together (bad).

 

They could make swtor disable vent/mumble/teamspeak/skype/yahoo messenger/msn messenger/aim/etc., but that would

 

1. be overly restrictive as it would negatively affect ops runs

2. ineffective, since there would always be some random app that would allow voicechat or hell, just people group conferencing on their telephones or simply running those voice chat apps on second computers.

 

They could make a solo queue only option, but premades would simply time their queues so they get into the same match, just like how they get 8 into single matches now, and if they don't all get in, they'll just leave the match, so more quitting.

 

So yeah, not really any way to prevent premade pugstomping. Other mmos, including wow, have the same problem. If no other mmos can figure out how to solve this issue, it's unlikely swtor will.

[Alericus]

premade

 

Urban dictionary definition

 

A pre-arranged group of people who will do an activity together. Often used in MMORPG's

 

So assuming we both live in the same land of logic, the only group that cant be a premade is...the proposed solo queue where no one can plan their group.

[Astarica]

Why do people continue to pretend PvP in this game is complicated enough that VOIP would even matter? If you can count to 4, you already know everything you need to know about tactical movement in WZs. If you can see at least 4 enemies, that's probably their major attack, because there are only 8 enemy players in the WZ and usually one of them has to be defending somewhere. This isn't like WoW where you got at least 15 guys so if you see 5 guys coming to a node in Arathi Basin you have no idea if that's a feint or a real assault because there's too much stuff you cannot know, so you need to quickly check with all the other guys at other nodes to get a complete picture.

[Baedwulf]

Why do people continue to pretend PvP in this game is complicated enough that VOIP would even matter?

It's funny because it's true... most of the time the people that use it... don't need it.

 

However, I'm sure there are plenty that use it... and it's not enough. People like to just group up the bads as pugs and the premades as skilled players. Forgetting that there are a ton of good pugs out there and plenty of horrible premades.

[Astarica]

It's funny because it's true... most of the time the people that use it... don't need it.

 

However, I'm sure there are plenty that use it... and it's not enough. People like to just group up the bads as pugs and the premades as skilled players. Forgetting that there are a ton of good pugs out there and plenty of horrible premades.

 

I remember reading this interview for the Korean team that won LoL championship and they asked them why were they so well coordinated at countering the enemy strat, and the Korean team was like all those strat the opponents were using they already saw hundreds of times in their practice games during boot camp so they don't even need to talk to each other to know how to stop it. It's kind of like this in SWTOR, and unlike LoL there are very few attacks patterns that make sense so you don't need to be in a Korean training camp to figure out most of them. I can't even think of a WZ where you need to assault 3 objectives at the same time unless you have a hobby of letting the enemy 3 cap first, and there just aren't that many interesting ways to attack 2 objectives with 8 people.

[enragedcow]

yep here how that will work me and my 7 friends ready to que on mumble/team speak/vent. Yep OK every one que. Que pops we all a say over voice chat que pop yes OK take it. We end up in a pre made with no grouping. See how no solution will work as long as it is server only ques. Cross server would fix that some what then again it would also increase the ques and stuff.

 

and destroy a huge part of what make spvp in swtor really awesome

 

WoW has cross server pvp, it is complete rubbish, please never implement and cross server queues bioware (not lfr, not lfd, NOTHING)

[foxmob]

and destroy a huge part of what make spvp in swtor really awesome

 

WoW has cross server pvp, it is complete rubbish, please never implement and cross server queues bioware (not lfr, not lfd, NOTHING)

the player pool i swtor is too small. there are only like 8 servers. even if every server was xserver in the same grp, you'd know who all the other PVPers are by the end of the week. xserver at this point is definitely a good idea. but I'd like to see the "intelligent design" (heh) of matchmaking improved first, or else I get the feeling well see more slaughterhouse, superQ exploiting regs.

[Technohic]

I remember reading this interview for the Korean team that won LoL championship and they asked them why were they so well coordinated at countering the enemy strat, and the Korean team was like all those strat the opponents were using they already saw hundreds of times in their practice games during boot camp so they don't even need to talk to each other to know how to stop it. It's kind of like this in SWTOR, and unlike LoL there are very few attacks patterns that make sense so you don't need to be in a Korean training camp to figure out most of them. I can't even think of a WZ where you need to assault 3 objectives at the same time unless you have a hobby of letting the enemy 3 cap first, and there just aren't that many interesting ways to attack 2 objectives with 8 people.

 

 

 

I'll never forget being on my sniper one time in a voidstar and things were not going great at the very beginning but I went right with the rest of my team left, and so did a marauder (this was before rage was made easy to BTW). We killed the guard at the off door, and he began to cap; I turned and watched the enemy spawn point with flash bang ready. Mezzed a couple that came out, bomb planted and we killed them. bomb went out; predation went on and we were off.

 

Started the bridge without confrontation as the other team must have been fighting the other team on the other side. The enemy that had respawned came running across the bridge toward us. The marauder jumped and did the area mez; I went in cover and did pulse and 4 or 5 that were there went flying off the bridge to their doom.

 

Again the marauder got the door, and I stood at the ready to legshot. No one made it out. bomb went off and we were on the run.

 

Basically; to shorten this, we wound up winning really fast and never said a word. Not once. It only sticks out in my mind because I PUG all the time and it was so refreshing to have such synergy.

 

EDIT: This isnt to say it doesn't matter whether you face premades or not. There is a bit of dogma both ways. Some will throw a fit right away if facing a premade while others, if you mention that there is a premade it becomes and immediate response that you are complaining about premades when all you really may be trying to do is point out that just mindlessly trying to dominate other bad PUGs; you might need to work together. Can't have that though. Gotta either blame premades or call out PUGs for being bad. No in between allowed.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Technohic

[Aelaias]

i like how you and so many other players have a hard time dealing with people playing a SOCIAL GAME, and doing stuff with FRIENDS and guildmates they have so stop QQing about people being SOCIAL and playign with other SOCIAL people, you dont people complaining about playing in a premade on COD or soem crap like that

 

I don't see what's so antisocial about forcing premades to go against other premades. Just think, it's up to twice the social experience you would get from going against pugs! 2 very social groups one or more of which groups up so as to avoid the travails of a pug while doing unto others what they wouldn't have done unto themselves -- being farmed.

[cashogy_reborn]

if folks took half the energy they wasted raging about 4 man premades, and put that energy towards improving their own performance, this wouldnt be an issue

[DarthRaika]

Regardless of your stance on the issue can we all please stop talking about voice chat being the deciding factor. It helps sure but by far the main advantage premades have is that they can choose 50% of a teams gear and composition.

 

Gear still plays a decent role in matches, however the biggest thing is composition. Tank healer combos are far more powerful than in many mmos. I think that if premade matching was set in place (matching not split q's) then this would be a great thing. However, if the premade has this and the pug doesn't then that is a huge advantage to the premade.

 

Add this to the fact that there are several burst dps classes who anyone can play well when being heavily healed and you should be able to see the problem. The dps classes can require skill when pugging or when premading against an equal premade but if you are a dps class in swtor who is being healed and playing against a pug then you would have to be pretty horrible to not be at least a decent threat.

 

In many other mmos I have played a single premade of good gear but mediocre players was not much of a threat against a halfway decent pug due to the premades often making up 1/3rd or 1/4th of the total players in a match and also a lack of guard/taunt mechanics but in swtor there are many many players who are horrible when they pug but when they form a decent composition premade can do pretty well at stomping pugs.

 

I think with 2.0 we can finally have a good premade matching system. People moan about pve gear doing well with bolster but in my experience it has just created many more premades. If swtor can add a premade matching system that doesn't make premades wait too long before giving up and letting them fight a pug then I think it would really help the pvp player base.

 

You should also realise that good pvprs are upset with the lack of premade matching as well. Good players with halfway decent irls don't like to pugstomp all the time.

[Tharenisis]

This argument goes like this

Pugs: No premades, unfair

Premades: Friends, mmo

Pugs: Don't like getting ROFL facestomped by premades

Premades: Like ROFL facestomping pugs

 

I can't imagine it would be too difficult to have a preferential matchmaking system that pit group vs group if at all possible, using solo players to fill in. If the system was flexible there wouldn't be a noticeable increase in queue times but it's hard to know in absence of the actual data.

 

Might as well remove premades then. You will find that most premades out there get their enjoyment from roflstomping pug groups, otherwise they would be doing primarily ranked games. If they added in a system that made premades get queued separately, they would stop. The few true premades who are looking for competitive play and for some reason aren't doing ranked will have huge queue times.