Remove Premades NOW!

[Vladnar]

Bumped into a beautifully construced premade yesterday evening, the same one 4 times aren't I lucky. They smashed us completely out of the warzone that in each game it was headless chichens vs organised pack of mercs within just 30 seconds.

 

They can't stop you getting the points but theres no way that was fun for them they can only be looking at the points, they are wanting full epic so just have to keep going and going............this is no good for anyone.

 

Lets see an easy resolution on this please chaps.

 

Heres another solution..............

 

wz queue for one offs only, no teams even of 2...........done.

 

rated only for people whom have a full set of partisan gear, elite pvpers if you will.......they can queue from solo up to a team of 8, they mechanics of filling teams of odd numbers like this is beyond me...........but there must be something that can be done.

 

Thanks

[Astarica]

Basically; to shorten this, we wound up winning really fast and never said a word. Not once. It only sticks out in my mind because I PUG all the time and it was so refreshing to have such synergy.

 

EDIT: This isnt to say it doesn't matter whether you face premades or not. There is a bit of dogma both ways. Some will throw a fit right away if facing a premade while others, if you mention that there is a premade it becomes and immediate response that you are complaining about premades when all you really may be trying to do is point out that just mindlessly trying to dominate other bad PUGs; you might need to work together. Can't have that though. Gotta either blame premades or call out PUGs for being bad. No in between allowed.

 

Good players just do things that make sense. I remember one time in a similar situation where we're capping a door in voistar and you can see 5 guys are about to jump down, I did a KB and a Sorc immediately did a KB which also roots, and we knocked and rooted all their guys exactly far enough to prevent them from stopping the plant. Keep in mind you have 8 seconds to discuss this (the time to plant the bomb). It's highly unlikely that as someone is planting the bomb will be outlining a complicated coordination of using CCs (especially if flash bang/awe isn't an option). You sort of just take all the good CCs and throw them at the enemy and hope they work out okay.

 

Another time I saw one of our guys plant and only one enemy is in range to stop him, I stunned him and then spiked him the moment the stun ended, and that guy reached our planter literally 0.1s too late to stop it. Do people really think in a premade there's someone saying, "Going to plant the bomb need to stall them for exactly 5.0s! Use Electrocute followed by a Spike at exactly the right time!" No, these are things you just do if you're a good player. Most of these decisions are something you've to decide in less than 10 seconds. It's very improbable even the best premades can possibly communicate a plan in that short of a time.

 

People should read up on the Korean training camps. It's pretty clear Koreans are the world's best in several competitive games, and their philosphy is pretty much if everyone on the team has seen every possible strat out there then you don't have to worry about any failure in communication because everyone would already know how to handle everything on their own. Of course the Koreans are way more hardcore than just about anyone else, but we're also not talking about memorizing every reasonable matchup in LoL here. The number of reasonable matchups in SWTOR is relatively few.

[chaosmadness]

8 group premades have Ranked.

4 group premades should group with other 4 group premade.

 

The point is that this kind of complaining are old and didnt see any Dev feedback until now...

[Technohic]

8 group premades have Ranked.

4 group premades should group with other 4 group premade.

 

The point is that this kind of complaining are old and didnt see any Dev feedback until now...

 

Dev feedback until "now?" Did I miss a dev post somewhere?

[TonyDragonflame]

Dev feedback until "now?" Did I miss a dev post somewhere?

 

Devs already answer on this maked +5% bonus to experience for those who in guild.

 

So, it means devs forced players go on wz as intended - in premades. In fact, next step they must simply remove button "solo queue" on wz.

[cycao]

Devs already answer on this maked +5% bonus to experience for those who in guild.

 

So, it means devs forced players go on wz as intended - in premades. In fact, next step they must simply remove button "solo queue" on wz.

 

Yep I love having that extra 5%, being a level 55 myself the extra experience I get is a nice advantage...

[TonyDragonflame]

Yep I love having that extra 5%, being a level 55 myself the extra experience I get is a nice advantage...

 

I prefer get my +5% to money and valor from warzones, but not useless experience...

[TimeBandit_Debel]

Separating the queues or banning premades is just stupid. I am playing in a premade because I want to win. And yes when I am we usually win more than 80% of the games. But the outcome would still be the same if we were randomly tossed in the same wz even without VOIP.

 

The point i am trying to make is that the premades are not the problem. Its the bads that whine when they get their assess kicked by good players, not premades. And also i think the matchmaking isnt that bad if you ask me.. The playerbase is not that huge. I mean i noticed that when i am with premade, i get matched against other premades, and also the valor rank is taken into account. And good players want to play with other good players. So if i spot a good player that solo queues i will invite him/her so we play togheter.

 

And also @ those ppl that say ranked is for premades etc etc. Have you actually bothered to create a full ranked wz group? With good players, the proper team setup so that you wont be literally stomped in ranked wz? And i dont even want to talk about the time it takes for the queue to pop up.

 

So man up and stop whining. And in the end, why not creating your own premade group.

Edited May 15, 2013 by TimeBandit_Debel

[DanAxe]

Ermmm, there is a premade matchmaking system... And it works relatively well.

 

Now you must realize there are no cross server pvp.. Which means as good as the matchmaking system may be, it cant match what its not been queued...

 

My guild does premades often, or we just inv a couple friends and go together in to normal wzs. When we do that, we normally end up against imps premades aswell, and many times when we have 2 or more groups queuing we end up fighting each other..

 

When i queue alone tho, its a whole other matter, i see no premades either agaisnt or with me, just a random normal pug. Unless ofc something like this happens: I group with 3 friends, we queue. There is no premade group on the imp side at the moment... So ofc we will be fighting a pug. But thats a population problem not a premade problem.

 

Geez people, stop whining about stuff that isnt broken and that you just dont understand, or are unlucky enough to not seeing things work as intended. Instead of just opening threads complaining about the last person who raped you on a pug, try to understand the real problem and make constructive threads to present solutions for real problems, not ragequiting situations.

[dcgregorya]

separating the queues solves nothing b/c the root of this whine is that bad players dont like playing against good players. nothing is stopping good players from solo queuing.

 

I respect most of your posts but this is just nonsense and you know it. I like to pick up random games while nothing is happening at work, I don't want to have to premade into every PVP match to have a fair chance at winning. Being able to pick comps and have voice comms is a massive advantage that has nothing to do with player skill as an individual.

[Astarica]

I respect most of your posts but this is just nonsense and you know it. I like to pick up random games while nothing is happening at work, I don't want to have to premade into every PVP match to have a fair chance at winning. Being able to pick comps and have voice comms is a massive advantage that has nothing to do with player skill as an individual.

 

I think the 'pick your comp' part is more like 'have a healer greatly increases your chance of not losing immediately'. I have queued with 4 DPS before and it just doesn't work very well even if all 4 DPS are good because the risk is too great you end up with a team with no healers and then you've a huge hole to get out of. Of course this thinking is also what leads to the stalemates, but you definitely don't want to be stuck on the team with no healers in the current game no matter how good you or the rest of the team is.

[dcgregorya]

I think the 'pick your comp' part is more like 'have a healer greatly increases your chance of not losing immediately'. I have queued with 4 DPS before and it just doesn't work very well even if all 4 DPS are good because the risk is too great you end up with a team with no healers and then you've a huge hole to get out of. Of course this thinking is also what leads to the stalemates, but you definitely don't want to be stuck on the team with no healers in the current game no matter how good you or the rest of the team is.

 

Yes, combined with cheese. Current cheese is like, premade of 4x healer.

[cashogy_reborn]

I respect most of your posts but this is just nonsense and you know it. I like to pick up random games while nothing is happening at work, I don't want to have to premade into every PVP match to have a fair chance at winning. Being able to pick comps and have voice comms is a massive advantage that has nothing to do with player skill as an individual.

 

voice comms is nowhere near the kind of advantage you folks make it out to be.

 

i can tell if the guy guarding that node is being jumped before he says anything. you know why? *i watch his health in the ops frame and sometimes even make him my focus target so i can see it even better*

 

spatial awareness and general PvP know-how will go a lot farther than voice comms.

 

i would take 8 random players, 1 from each of the top PvP guilds, who have never played together before and have no voice comms over a full premade of mediocre players. its instinct, and the majority of players lack that instinct.

 

 

as far as group comp goes, to an extent that is true. but you are only able to pre-pick *half* of the group comp. its an advantage, sure. but one that is incapable of being overcome? no.

 

 

 

i solo queue very frequently, and the number of mistakes i see is mind bottling. i mez a guy so we can cap -> some noob immediately attacks the mez'd guy. over-rotating when there is 2inc to a node. completely ignoring healers. not peeling for our own healers. guys guarding and not paying attention or having their keyboard get stunlocked. it goes on and on and on and on. if the typical player stopped making these mistakes, quality of play would increase significantly and the skill gap would start to shrink. but i doubt that will ever happen, since its easier to just come to the forums and whine for bioware to nerf the better players instead of taking personal responsibility for why you perform poorly.

[UncleOst]

voice comms is nowhere near the kind of advantage you folks make it out to be.

 

 

 

spatial awareness and general PvP know-how will go a lot farther than voice comms.

 

i would take 8 random players, 1 from each of the top PvP guilds, who have never played together before and have no voice comms over a full premade of mediocre players. its instinct, and the majority of players lack that instinct.

 

 

 

 

 

its easier to just come to the forums and whine for bioware to nerf the better players instead of taking personal responsibility for why you perform poorly.

 

I agree. My entire formation of dead republic club was based on what I observed from players in regular que. you can tell when a person has intuition. There's a magical flow. This may also have been a reason why my guild was so small. Also important to note....we never forced ventrillo and most if not all games were without. Ask anyone who remembers from pot5 how me and my boys would do.

 

This thread was created with ignorance. Hopefully people can appreciate higher levels of play by simply studying their roles within team and cultivate awareness.

 

Unfortunately, you can't teach intuition.

[Emencie]

voice comms is nowhere near the kind of advantage you folks make it out to be.

 

i can tell if the guy guarding that node is being jumped before he says anything. you know why? *i watch his health in the ops frame and sometimes even make him my focus target so i can see it even better*

 

spatial awareness and general PvP know-how will go a lot farther than voice comms.

 

I can agree with you that spatial awareness is key to a Warzone but I completely disagree with how important VOIP is to that spatial awareness.

 

In your own example while in a pug I would say you did great. Taking note your ally needs help, and responding. but in my premades using VOIP not only would I know (generally) before he was attacked that he was going to be attacked. but I also know, How many are there, what classes they are, what cooldowns my teammember has up and how much help he needs to fend them off. And honestly how many times have you commited to helping that person only to get there as he's finishing off the last attacker? (I know it happens to me) and there goes 15-30 seconds depending on the map that you were wasting.

 

It's the difference between reading

"INC 3" Just "inc!" or as we all know sometimes nothing at all.

then watching your team either over commit or under-commit because you simply have too little information to go on. (or not reacting at all because they tunnel visioned a target, not reading chat)

 

Versus with VOIP (in my teams) conversations sound a little more like this.

"3 guys incoming, it's those sents again. I think the scoundrel is with them"

"you guys ok?"

"I have my cooldowns we can hold them for a bit"

"Yea plus that _______ guy is a ******* retard"

"Ok, lets focus this healer down real fast _____, then you go help them"

 

There would be a rant about why that particular sent was a retard in there but that isn't really the point...

 

In this way I feel VOIP is the most important thing. Because even good players with well balanced teams can only react to each other while we can plan actions to use off of one another. This is why we don't even hesitate to play our 4 DPS together (Unless we have hit a string of playing against another premade then we will swap) Because in a general fight even against a healer a tank and 2 DPS we come out on top 100% of the time against non premades.

 

No CC is broken or overwriten too soon, Never do we make a ball runner immune when a teammate could just pull them into the pit, never do we keep running when a pass is coming to us because we didn't notice. Nodes are never left unguarded because we didn't know who was where. These little mistakes are what can cost a close game. Sure we still have 4 randoms to carry but generally like others have said if we step into a WZ against PUGs we already won. All this when we are using VIOP. but If I single queue into a match with a friend we are no where near as perfect in our timing and strategy. We are guessing what the other person will do and playing off sound tactics but never truly knowing. even popping a root too late (and at the same time) because we were waiting for the other to do theirs first.

 

Basically my point is that while team composition and skill are major factors in PvP communication is the most important and VOIP gives the best communications. that is why as people have pointed out you do not hear people ever complaining about this outside of MMORPGs because those games all have VIOP. there is still skill disparity in those games disparity in spatial awareness but premades are a non issue because everyone has the same level of communication. And with that communication sometimes comes a point where your whole team doesn't even need spatial awareness. I know people that just jump in Vent and just ask "where do you want me?" and the whole match is (generally) one person calling shots as information comes in.

 

This is most seen in PvE raids where people who do it night after night, week after week still need instruction on what to do at what phase of the boss encounter. Because they don't pay attention to the fight itself much, but rather to the person telling them when to do what during the fight.

[foxmob]

I say this in every thread. I don't know why ppl don't get it. voice is an advantage, but it's a relatively minor one. the problem is that the best players in the WZ are usually on the same team, and they're always on that team because they're in the same 4m grp.

 

please stop complaining about "the voice advantage." really. that's not your problem. you need to get your head around this. 90% of voice chat during a match is comparing jessica alba's ***** to jessica biel's or making fun of someone who did something stupid (either on their own team or the other team).

 

the fact of the matter is that they are 4 elite players that know how to work with each other. they hit harder than you do. they heal better. they use their cc better. they los better. and they're on the same team.

 

I'm for a solo only option. leave it up to pure chance whether 4 elites are going to land on the same team rather than make it a guarantee. or let them go up against other 4m's. I guarantee you that your 4m won't be the equal of theirs, with or without voice.

 

takeway: the problem is team composition, not voice. team composition is more than just how many healers, tanks, ranged, and melee. it's how good each of them are, and how many "good" players are on each "random" team.

Edited May 15, 2013 by foxmob

[Fordel]

I don't understand where this thread went.

 

 

There's no advantage to voice comms and cherry picked comps? Why do people keep doing it then?

[cashogy_reborn]

*snip*

 

zoom your camera out and you can see almost the entire map.

[Emencie]

zoom your camera out and you can see almost the entire map.

Not sure what that has to do with anything... Seeing the map doesn't tell you half the information that you can get from your teammate.

 

You complain about people making mistakes like breaking your mez, then profess that communication isn't that important.

 

Now I'm wondering how much time passed between your mez landing and their attack landing... Less than a second? They were likely attacking as you started to Mez. zooming out the camera doesn't tell you if your teammate is going to go for the mez-cap, and expects you to mez off his as he caps, or expects to mez off your mez so you can cap, or is expecting you and him to burn down the target in under 5 seconds.

 

Guess what does?

[cashogy_reborn]

Not sure what that has to do with anything... Seeing the map doesn't tell you half the information that you can get from your teammate.

 

You complain about people making mistakes like breaking your mez, then profess that communication isn't that important.

 

Now I'm wondering how much time passed between your mez landing and their attack landing... Less than a second? They were likely attacking as you started to Mez. zooming out the camera doesn't tell you if your teammate is going to go for the mez-cap, and expects you to mez off his as he caps, or expects to mez off your mez so you can cap, or is expecting you and him to burn down the target in under 5 seconds.

 

Guess what does?

 

really?

 

if you can see the whole map you can see that there are 3 people headed to west on NC before that scrub picking his bum even knows about it. you can call inc for him, all the way from south, and get there to back him up way faster.

 

and breaking a mez? if there is one enemy around and you need to cap, MEZ HIM FFS. and when he is mez'd, LEAVE HIM THE FRAK ALONE. if you do not know that, i dont even know what to make of it. ive seen it happen over and over again: i mez someone, start capping, a teammate strolls over and pewpews at the mezd guy who then interupts me. USE YOUR BRAINS

 

good, smart play minimizes the advantage of voice chat. before all of my old guildies quit, we would play together and almost never be in vent. or if we were in vent, the warzone was the last thing we were talking about.

 

 

 

im done posting in this thread. the solution to this "problem" is obvious, and falls to each individual player to take personal responsibility for their gameplay. repeating myself hundreds of times doesnt seem to have an effect, so i give up.

Edited May 15, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[UncleOst]

Because they don't pay attention to the fight itself much, but rather to the person telling them when to do what during the fight.

 

First of all good post and I apologize for trimming it.

 

Good chemistry is required..period. Problems arise when the "leader" is out to lunch or generic feedback is either erroneous or non-existant. I've entered different guilds' vent, only to hear some idiots screaming out targets or arguing about who's strat is better......during the match! You also know you're in for a ride, when you enter their vent and hear a symphany of bongs. I find vent can be quite annoying personally, but it can be used as a platform for discussion and instruction. Learn how to do your job...and Do it. The rest of the time there's nothing worse than trying to fight/use vent, and have an idiot start rambling about what he had for lunch.

[Emencie]

really?

 

if you can see the whole map you can see that there are 3 people headed to west on NC before that scrub picking his bum even knows about it. you can call inc for him, all the way from south, and get there to back him up way faster.

 

and breaking a mez? if there is one enemy around and you need to cap, MEZ HIM FFS. and when he is mez'd, LEAVE HIM THE FRAK ALONE. if you do not know that, i dont even know what to make of it. ive seen it happen over and over again: i mez someone, start capping, a teammate strolls over and pewpews at the mezd guy who then interupts me. USE YOUR BRAINS

 

good, smart play minimizes the advantage of voice chat. before all of my old guildies quit, we would play together and almost never be in vent. or if we were in vent, the warzone was the last thing we were talking about.

 

 

 

im done posting in this thread. the solution to this "problem" is obvious, and falls to each individual player to take personal responsibility for their gameplay. repeating myself hundreds of times doesnt seem to have an effect, so i give up.

First off, I can think of tons of times where killing a target is preferable to mezing them for 8 seconds while we cap. especially since even with "zooming out" you cannot know where every target is on the battlefield at once.

 

I guarantee no serious rated team or premade 4 rolls without VOIP. There is a reason for that. And there is a reason Premades are a MMORPG only problem. It has nothing to do with skill. Unless you are saying in every other MMO Everyone has exactly equal skill so they don't have to worry about premades.

 

What do those games have that MMORPGs don't? What does every serious rated group have without fail? VIOP

[Skyhigh]

http://suhaimiramly.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/bigbaby.jpeg

[weprisko]

lol. premades want to fight pugs and lol on vent or ts or whatever. they do not join to fight equally geared, skilled and organized grp. they queue cuz they are just casual players. they know more than newbies so they form a grp and do some assist, switch, guard, CC... things to beat 8 solo guys. once they face equally organized grp they just leave warzone and wait for another pug one. saw it toooo many time in every game with pvp.

 

thats how it works, lads and lasses. premades are made for roflstomping pugs. pugs are meant to be fun factor in pvp. so if u r pug, stop doing that bs, search for nice guild, ask some players to do some 2 man queues, then try to organize more and go roflstomp pugs on your own cheers

Edited May 15, 2013 by weprisko

[Astarica]

People who believe in voice comm matter in this game is clearly using it as an excuse. It's especially hilarious for calling for help, as the maps are designed the guys sitting in the 'middle' position have the best field of vision, often far superior to the node defender. In the rare cases where I am not solo defending somewhere, I can often tell the node defender who is coming to attack him before he even sees them, because I can see much more than he can.

 

People seem to think if you get in voice and say "Okay using Flash Bang cap that objective now!" this is somehow supposed to totally work. What happens if one person then breaks out of it with his CC breaker, or that maybe one of the guy already has a dot on him? A comprehensive plan would look like: "Okay using Flash Bang, if it gets broken use Awe, if it gets broken again use KB, then root, and then finally stun." And you're crazy if you think people actually have time to say all that in the 8 seconds you need to cap something. For the most part WZs rarely go as planned. Usually you drop your first CC of choice (almost always flash bang) and then 1 or 3 guys get out of it anyway for reasons you didn't anticipate, and after that it's just a mad CC fest and hope the right ones land on the right guys. At this point whether you can CC these guys is solely a function of your player's skill, because there's no way anybody can tell you for sure ahead of time who is going to break out of that flash bang.

 

And if you don't have Flash Bang? No other CC even lasts long enough to get a cap off against more than 1 guy so you're totally dependent again on your player being clever enoguh to mix enough CCs in to get the job done. There isn't this guy that said, "Okay Awe and then KB at 5.9s followed by Carbonize at 6.8s and then Overload at 7.5s, we totally got this!" Things like that happen simply because all your good players have enough awareness to realize when the last CC is about to wear off. There is absolutely no way you can communicate a plan like that ahead of time in under 8 seconds.