Remove Premades NOW!

[Emencie]

First of all good post and I apologize for trimming it.

 

Good chemistry is required..period. Problems arise when the "leader" is out to lunch or generic feedback is either erroneous or non-existant. I've entered different guilds' vent, only to hear some idiots screaming out targets or arguing about who's strat is better......during the match! You also know you're in for a ride, when you enter their vent and hear a symphany of bongs. I find vent can be quite annoying personally, but it can be used as a platform for discussion and instruction. Learn how to do your job...and Do it. The rest of the time there's nothing worse than trying to fight/use vent, and have an idiot start rambling about what he had for lunch.

Oh yea I agree 100% there is nothing more annoying than that 1 guy who just wont shut up in vent. Luckily most games allow you to mute/ignore. But when you have a group with a good leader it can be a well oiled machine.

 

People seem to think if you get in voice and say "Okay using Flash Bang cap that objective now!" this is somehow supposed to totally work. What happens if one person then breaks out of it with his CC breaker, or that maybe one of the guy already has a dot on him? A comprehensive plan would look like: "Okay using Flash Bang, if it gets broken use Awe, if it gets broken again use KB, then root, and then finally stun." And you're crazy if you think people actually have time to say all that in the 8 seconds you need to cap something. For the most part WZs rarely go as planned. Usually you drop your first CC of choice (almost always flash bang) and then 1 or 3 guys get out of it anyway for reasons you didn't anticipate, and after that it's just a mad CC fest and hope the right ones land on the right guys. At this point whether you can CC these guys is solely a function of your player's skill, because there's no way anybody can tell you for sure ahead of time who is going to break out of that flash bang.

Actually for me its more like...

"We gonna sap?"

"Yea Ill go."

(yes I know but we still call it sapping...) We know what to do because we play together but voip just makes the plan perfect and is a lot faster than typing. Any person that plays rated know what the plan is just from reading that. I'm going to keep the target pinned down with CC till my partner caps. Simple as that. He knows what I'm doing and I know what he is doing. he will start capping right before I sap, we wont double CC on accident, we don't need to plan contingencies, my job is to keep the target CCed period. I don't need to plan with my partner how I'm going to do that in this case. Just that I will do it while he caps.

 

or

"We gonna sap?"

"No I saw a stealther here"

Again its not about a big elaborate plan it's about being in cohesion with your allies. That's why every rated group uses voip. We need to kill this guy not CC him because he has an ally in the area. We need to drop him then go 2v1 ASAP. One person not in tune with this. tossing an early mez thinking that is the best solution can give the target early resolve and ruin things.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Emencie

[DarthRaika]

I'll paraphrase what I wrote earlier.

 

Voice comm is not the main advantage premades have in swtor.

 

Premades in swtor choose 50% of their teams' composition in a game where guard/taunts + healer is king and dps classes are extremely easy to play when being healed and/or are on the better team.

 

This is HUGE and it is why I don't form my own premades and/or a pvp guild like I have done in past games. I want premade matching for competitive pvp. Premaders should want what I want.

 

Also, for the puggers who are upset you should focus on what I just said. Voice comm and gear matters sure but it is mainly team composition.

 

The premaders can dismiss voice comm pretty easily and while there is still a large gear advantage to be gained many people are unaware of this and so premaders can deny it.

 

However, premaders will have a hard time defending the belief that team composition isn't a major advantage in swtor and if they do then you can do a quick search and find where the same people say they don't q up for ranked because composition is so important in swtor.

Edited May 16, 2013 by DarthRaika

[UncelSam]

A constructive solution is to remove premades from regular WZ.

 

-Make a Q for premades vs premades

 

-Make a Q for PUGs vs PUGs

 

All happy and gets challenging fights and alot of FUN!

 

Dont try to force PUGs to get used to get stomped by Premade bullys. Thats NOT constructive.

[BubbaZanetti]

A queue solo only button would be simply to implement surely?

[Astarica]

 

However, premaders will have a hard time defending the belief that team composition isn't a major advantage in swtor and if they do then you can do a quick search and find where the same people say they don't q up for ranked because composition is so important in swtor.

 

Try making a premade with 4 DPS and you'll find that premade isn't as cool as you think it is when your team composition is completely wrong for the current WZ enviornment.

 

In fact, I'd say a premade of 4 DPS results in a WZ that's weaker than the average 8 random guys simply because the chance of having a healer on that group 8 is significantly reduced compared to normal.

[thesadplanet]

A constructive solution is to remove premades from regular WZ.

 

-Make a Q for premades vs premades

 

-Make a Q for PUGs vs PUGs

 

All happy and gets challenging fights and alot of FUN!

 

Dont try to force PUGs to get used to get stomped by Premade bullys. Thats NOT constructive.

 

I already explained why this "solution" is a terrible idea in detail in a previous post, but as I suspected, it was way too long a read for anyone dumb enough to actually believe that premades vs pugs is a legitimate problem in PvP that needs to be addressed. So I'll address exactly what this post says and break down why it is stupid.

 

-Make a Q for premades vs premades

First of all, as has been said by many people previously, not all premades are created equal. If we are only going to have 2 brackets, one for solo queueing, and one for premades, then I'm going to assume that you consider any group of players more than 1 that is grouped for PvP at the same time to be a premade. This means that a premade can range anywhere between these two extremes:

 

2 players that have just hit 55, have never PvP'd before, aren't using any kind of voice communication software, and are completely unaware of their surroundings.

 

4 players in a serious PvP guild with min maxed gear, voice communication, and tons of experience and awareness.

 

You can make a decent argument that the serious pvp guild should be playing against other serious pvp guilds, and most experienced players will tell you that this game does have some form of matchmaking system that attempts to the best of its abilities to match up premades with other premades (just play with a group for a while and you will notice this trend immediately), but why should the 2 players that just hit 55 be forced to play in a special premade bracket simply because they aren't playing by themselves.

 

The end result of this is that the premade bracket will be just as, if not more unbalanced than the normal bracket already is. The only thing it will do is discourage friends from playing PvP with eachother unless they are a full premade with minmaxed gear. This does happen to some extent with the current system, but would be even more blatantly obvious by separating the brackets.

 

-Make a Q for PUGs vs PUGs

I solo queue a lot, and I can say with confidence that if solo queueing meant you were only going to play with other people that are solo queueing, I would most likely stop altogether. The biggest misconception is this entire thread is that premades are created with the sole intent of facerolling pugs. That might end up being the result in some of the games you play as a solo player, but I would say the main reason to create a premade, at least for me, is to minimize the number of terrible players on your own team.

 

Even if you are the best player ever, if you are solo queueing the result of the game is usually out of your hands. You are relying on the other 7 players on your team to make good plays and generally not be terrible. Unfortunately, due to the large exodus of players over the last year or so, and the introduction of F2P, the average PUG in SWTOR PvP is nothing short of horrible.

 

As a result, intelligent players who actually want to get their daily done in 2 games instead of 4, or actually get their weekly done on time, queue up as a premade to reduce the number of people they are required to carry to 4 instead of 7. Under your "solution", this would still continue in the premade bracket as there would be a significant amount of imbalance there,

 

Therefore, the solo queue bracket would end up being one of the biggest jokes in MMO history. The average level of intelligence in these games would be so low that National Geographic would want to come and write an article about how bad the players are. There would be no teamwork, no communication, and things like sap capping would be even more effective than they already are. The winners of these games would pretty much be totally random and no smart player is going to subject themselves to that garbage.

 

In conclusion, while the current PvP system is nowhere near perfect, it is far better than your "solution" which would probably kill off PvP in this game forever.

[Astarica]

Of course premades are made to crush PUGs, not because they want to play with their friends. Do you really think all premades just consist of people with extremely weird taste in class composition? While DPS easily outnumber healer 4 to 1 as a function of the general population, you'll see far more premades with 2 healers than 4 DPS. I take anybody for my premade and I have far more teams that feature 4 DPS than even a team with 1 healer let alone 2 when premades are formed this way, and that's hardly surprisingly if your friends have a class distribution that looks remotely like the norm in SWTOR. And if you ever premade with 4 DPS, you'll know that this is arguably worse than solo queue regardless of the skill level of the character you use and yet this should be the most common form of team composition given that DPS absolutely dominates the class distribution.

[DarthRaika]

Astarica, if you can control the composition as I explained then of course you could make a horrible composition premade lol. The complaint is that you can make a great one and then fight a team that has no control over their team's composition.

 

Also, if you make a premade of 4 dps and you fight a pug group and lose then your 4 dps are bad and are the type that require pocket healing to do well. Now if you fight a good premade with a good composition it would be understandable but 4 dps classes should destroy 95% of pug groups.

 

One problem in swtor is the amount of bad premaders who do pretty well in premades. The skill softcap in this game is extremely low for premaders. In a lot of mmos having a good premade isn't as much of an advantage as it is in this game. I always laugh when I see these players in an even or losing match the few times they pug. They are absolutely horrible and that is why you will very rarely see many of the premader forum posters pug.

Edited May 16, 2013 by DarthRaika

[sirullrich]

Astarica, if you can control the composition as I explained then of course you could make a horrible composition premade lol. The complaint is that you can make a great one.

 

But so can you!

[Durbenmewgen]

This is getting old being rolled by premades every day. WTB fix?

[DarthRaika]

Siru, since you think you are a good player then shouldn't you want premade matching?

 

If swtor added premade matching then I would start forming my own premade as I have done in every other mmo I have played.

 

Do you enjoy pugstomping most matches? If so then please quit this game and work on your irl since you likely have some issues.

[sirullrich]

Siru, since you think you are a good player then shouldn't you want premade matching?

 

If swtor added premade matching then I would start forming my own premade as I have done in every other mmo I have played.

 

Do you enjoy pugstomping most matches? If so then please quit this game and work on your irl since you likely have some issues.

 

Lol I win when pug and premade. I play rateds. I have no issues winning irl or in video games. Do you feel better by insulting people. I think the person with real issues is you. All I told you was you could make your own premade . You contradicted yourself and got called on it.

[Baedwulf]

What if I told you...

[weprisko]

separate solo and premade queue is ********. it would lead to just massive outrage and majority would join solo, end up killed and then yell how that solo vs solo is terrible.

 

its like friend who tell u - "hey c'mon, lets play football. so u call all your friends and head there." there might happen few cases

1 - other team is made of random guys standing nearby. 5 of them are goalkeepers, 2 are defenders and other 4 have never played football before. after 20 mins your team is winning 6-0. your team has great fun but opponents just gave up and go home. / or u r winning 6-0 and u are bored as hell so u just say bye

 

2- other team is perfectly matched to your team. after 20 mins its still 0-0 cuz every1 know what they should do. u either enjoy this and try harder to outplay them or u just rage cuz u cannot score a goal and say bye, Im going to play with these kids standing around

 

majority of MMO players prefer easy mode - u cannot win fast and easy? no problem. instead of try harder u just outplay the system. leave the pitch and join some 7 years old kids to show them whos the boss around.

 

every1 who tell u its not like that just returned from some match vs. 7 years old kids

[cashogy_reborn]

What if I told you...

 

awesome

[Isislol]

I solo queue a lot, and I can say with confidence that if solo queueing meant you were only going to play with other people that are solo queueing, I would most likely stop altogether. The biggest misconception is this entire thread is that premades are created with the sole intent of facerolling pugs. That might end up being the result in some of the games you play as a solo player, but I would say the main reason to create a premade, at least for me, is to minimize the number of terrible players on your own team.

 

 

 

^^^^This.

[DarthRaika]

Siru, how did I contradict myself? It doesn't matter whether I form my own premade. Whether I am logged in or not there are premades fighting pugs all the time. This is fact. It is also fact that a premade can choose 50% of their team's composition where a pug can't. This is a huge advantage for the premade.

 

I used to form premades and it was boring as hell since we mostly fought crappy pugs. I quit and I only solo q now. I win a lot as well. I don't personally mind fighting a premade as I often have fun even in runover matches by getting more kbs than the rest of my team has kills.

 

The reason I want premade matching is so that I can fight mostly premades.

 

Why are you against premade matching? And again, do you enjoy pugstomping most regular matches? Also, I don't believe you pug very often. Your version of pugging is likely duo'n with a guard.

[Daskillz]

As a healer I usually only group with my guild because I am tired of healing people who don't bother trying to learn the basics of their class. it is 2.0 and I still see level 55's ending a game with less than 100k damage done (no they weren't guarding node either) while I see them fighting most of the time considering I am healing them. Rofl stomping pugs tends to be the outcome of my premades but that is not the intention of them.

 

I feel like it takes more skill to be bad at this game than it takes to be good. With that logic the majority of the population I've come in contact with in this game are are so skilled I am unable to comprehend it.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Daskillz

[DarthRaika]

Ya there are a lot of people who I just don't understand how they can be that bad daskillz lol.

[Astarica]

Astarica, if you can control the composition as I explained then of course you could make a horrible composition premade lol. The complaint is that you can make a great one and then fight a team that has no control over their team's composition.

 

Also, if you make a premade of 4 dps and you fight a pug group and lose then your 4 dps are bad and are the type that require pocket healing to do well. Now if you fight a good premade with a good composition it would be understandable but 4 dps classes should destroy 95% of pug groups.

 

One problem in swtor is the amount of bad premaders who do pretty well in premades. The skill softcap in this game is extremely low for premaders. In a lot of mmos having a good premade isn't as much of an advantage as it is in this game. I always laugh when I see these players in an even or losing match the few times they pug. They are absolutely horrible and that is why you will very rarely see many of the premader forum posters pug.

 

Let's say 1 out of 8 players play a healer. If I have a premade of 4 DPS, this means 50% of the time the WZ we get into would have no healer (only 4 of them can possibly be a healer), while the opposing PUG would likely have a 1 healer on average.

 

The no healer versus even 1 healer is borderllne unwinnable in the current enviornment unless your 4 DPS are all smashers. Of course, that's why you don't really see 4 DPS in a premade very often, and the fact that there's no way premades are done to 'just play with friends' because otherwise we'd see a ton of 4 DPS premades, simply because it is abundantly obvious that DPS outnumber healers by at least 4 to 1.

 

Of course that's also why premades are strong, because they're obviously not designed with friends in mind and everything to do with winning. Otherwise it is simply impossible that your friends all happen to play the classes that are rarely played by the general population (healer and tank).

[Astarica]

 

Why are you against premade matching? And again, do you enjoy pugstomping most regular matches? Also, I don't believe you pug very often. Your version of pugging is likely duo'n with a guard.

 

Yeah, it's pretty funny when people PUG while having 2 of the hardest pieces to find in a PUG. At least prior to 2.0, the most common composition of a team in PUG is 8 DPS. By having 1 healer and 1 tank you already guaranteed that it is impossible for your side to have some kind of unbelievably bad matchup (e.g. 8 DPS versus any healer + 1 tank + DPS).

 

If you're truly doing premade with your friends you'd have a lot of 4 DPS premades simply because that's the most common group composition for 4 guys, and these aren't the premades curbstomping oppositon. Is it better than 4 random DPS? Probably, but it's hardly the same as having healer + tank + 2 smashers, or 2 healer + tank + DPS.

[foxmob]

Yeah, it's pretty funny when people PUG while having 2 of the hardest pieces to find in a PUG. At least prior to 2.0, the most common composition of a team in PUG is 8 DPS. By having 1 healer and 1 tank you already guaranteed that it is impossible for your side to have some kind of unbelievably bad matchup (e.g. 8 DPS versus any healer + 1 tank + DPS).

 

If you're truly doing premade with your friends you'd have a lot of 4 DPS premades simply because that's the most common group composition for 4 guys, and these aren't the premades curbstomping oppositon. Is it better than 4 random DPS? Probably, but it's hardly the same as having healer + tank + 2 smashers, or 2 healer + tank + DPS.

 

there are more healers in reg WZs in 2.0 than any other time in the history of the game. I really don't know what you're talking about here. tons of pug healers.

[Astarica]

there are more healers in reg WZs in 2.0 than any other time in the history of the game. I really don't know what you're talking about here. tons of pug healers.

 

I said prior to 2.0. Right now there's definitely a huge influx of healers, which also makes it safer to run a premade of 4 DPS. Still, when you get no healer on your team with your premade of 4 DPS, you can't help but to realize that your premade is a large contribution for your team to be in this nasty situation.

[DarthRaika]

Astarica I have made a lot of premades before I got fed up with them. 4 decent dps wreck lol. I have all 8 and have made dps premades on all of them. Now of course assuming equal skill a dps/tank/healer premade will beat a 4 dps premade but against an avg premade 4 dps rock

[Jorojus]

I've always wondered why there is a valor rank