PUGs UNITE!!!

[Unrestrained-]

I enjoy the constantly varried groupings and the different strategies that must be deployed based on who you have.

 

Pug groups with strategies? You sir must be high.

[sauerkraut]

After reading all this pro Premade wall of text, i still don't get it.Why premades afraid to play vs premades? Why they want to play against PUGs? Don't worry it was a rhetorical question. Because they are afraid to get face rolled by another premade. That's why the Ranked WZ is dead and the Premade vs PUG is booming

[criminalheretic]

After reading all this pro Premade wall of text, i still don't get it.Why premades afraid to play vs premades? Why they want to play against PUGs? Don't worry it was a rhetorical question. Because they are afraid to get face rolled by another premade. That's why the Ranked WZ is dead and the Premade vs PUG is booming

 

If all the premades are in the normal WZs, then presumably premades are running into other premades all the time. That or you aren't running into them as often as you think...

 

As a side note, complaining on one hand about getting stomped by groups of good players, and then other other hand claiming they are bad players who are scared to face good players, just diminishes your argument.

[MobiusZero]

As a side note, complaining on one hand about getting stomped by groups of good players, and then other other hand claiming they are bad players who are scared to face good players, just diminishes your argument.

 

Not really. You could be the most skilled player in the world, and still get stomped playing against a group of "good" players. Skill only goes so far when you are solo queued.

 

And I'm sure you have seen your fair share of solo queuers, whom you immediately recognize, because they are known for their skill.

 

Whether you are a PuG player or premade player, has little to do with your skill. And both of them also have unique skillsets of their own.

 

I think the main issue, is that premade players tend to look down on PuGers, and this is understandably upsetting to them. It's also often difficult for a PuGer to prove his superiority to a premade, because the premade has their whole team to back them up.

 

You seriously can't deny that premade players tend to have a lack of respect for PuGers, as if their playstyle is superior, or more popular. Honestly, I'd bet that most people that play WZ's are solo queuers.

Edited February 21, 2013 by MobiusZero

[Baktaro]

I am far from great, but when I join 50 warzones or even lowbie with my friends most matches become fairly boring and one sided if they other team gets stuck with a crappy preamde. So most of these matches we dick around since facerolling is not fun. I PvP for the competitive aspect, sadly I do not have 4 other friends who are willing to do ranked with a deaf player, so I am stuck with running reg 50 warzones and lowbie warzones, which in the end becomes boring simply because the other team lacks the synergy that comes from playing with the same group over a long period of time.

 

Vent is just one factor and honestly premades with great synergy do not even need vent for regs simply because they know how to react / what their teammates will do, always remain active, and have proper awareness.

 

I for one would much rather trade longer queue times to fight other premades. I love it when I face a top tier premade in a warzone makes for fun and dynamic matches, granted bad premades would get facerolled more, and having a different queue would not stop players from queuing at the same time, but overall I would truly love a 4 man queue only, being as I may never get to enjoy ranked on a daily bases.

 

When they made queue for players that had exp turned off in WoW, I found that awesome, granted the queue time was longer, but most of the time each match was a blast. I would gladly trade my shorter queue times for my dynamic and competitive match ups. If TOR was not faction based I would not mind if they just split up the premade groups after the matchmaking system selected the 16 people for the warzone. I enjoy fighting my buddies.

 

If a different queue for groups would bring about more competitive match ups I am all for it. I may be weird but beating less skilled players is not at all fun for me.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Baktaro

[Cthulhooo]

Pug groups with strategies? You sir must be high.

 

Oh yeah, he must be.

 

Yesterday. I join the pug wz Novarre. Everything goes fine,we got 2 turrets. I'm on the east, rest fight on the mid. Then I see 4 guys coming to my turret. I write east 4, nobody responds, I cry for help, nobody respond, I insult them nobody respond, I try to advice them nobody respond, we lose, nobody cares. During all wz they run to random turrets without coordination or apparent reason like headless chickens always leaving 1 turret unprotected. I stay for the 2/3 of WZ alone on turrets, not even fight anybody just to not let them be captured for free and still do 2x more dmg than best dpses of my team. I facepalm. Next wz is ancient hypergate when I see 3 ppl going to take pylon and then leaving it promptly for free capture two times in a row. I really play pugs rarely....

 

That's how pugs are bad. That's why I only play with my guildmates to avoid annoying idiots who can't even handle chat call incs. And trust me I'm not awesome. I'm just good. Awesome players from elite pvp guilds doing pre mades obliterate pugs like trash every day and every night. I've heard stories of ppl who played 40 warzones and won 3 times.

 

Pug's are terrible so I understand why people who are not terribad and still do pugs for various reasons would like some chance. Some matchmaking and cross server queues would partially solve this problem. Knowing EAware this won't happen (we wait for simple fixes for months) so until then we all have to deal with this ******** (pre mades aren't so happy too when half of the team are retarded pugs who can't handle anything and must be carried by them).

 

Even though it do not like it at all I have to repeat the ironic advices of other players. If there's still a hope for you leave pug and join any team with teamspeak/mumble/vent etc. It doesn't have to be A-team with EWH gear just a group of people who can tell you "I need help on the snow" or "cc this guy' I'll plant the bomb" in the real time not some crappy chat you waste time on typing and nobody reads it. Trust me, it's good for your nerves. Nothing and no one else is gonna help you if you don't want to help yourself.

[Jagangla]

I get rolled by pugs....Who cares. The fun part for me is finally getting that win. It's this great feeling and you KNOW you fought against a worthy opponent, and whatever they say is not going to make an excuse for you. You don't like the challenge? The feeling? Don't say it's not possible bc you can still beat a premade...just stop being a baby and giving up. OP is annoying. Grow up. This isn't burger king, the game is made like this. If you don't like it, quit. What's up with all this crying and QQ on the forums!?!?!?!? It's like everyone wants to be spoiled kids again...oh the shame of this generation... Edited February 21, 2013 by Jagangla

[ArchangelLBC]

I've had this type of discussion a million times, in far far too many different games.

 

There's usually two sides to the discussion:

 

A)The PuGers, who are tired of having less fun because of premades causing one-sided games.

 

B)The premade players, who always make the argument: "You should join a premade, yourself, instead of complaining." Just a side note about these players - Typically, they are people who lack the balls to play alone, and rely on team so that they can have easier wins. Of course, they will tell you that they do it because they want to play with friends; but the reality is that they would never be caught dead outside of a premade.

 

Nice generalization. I solo queue as well when there's no one on who wants to queue. Also you forgot the argument "we don't want slower queue times". Which, premade queues are already slower because they are rarely selected to backfill (double edged sword that I admit, but the queues are definitely longer).

 

We also just plain don't understand how you can complain about losing to premades but then not do the most obvious thing to combat them (form your own damn premade).

 

What it really comes down to, is that the argument group B typically uses, trying to say that PuGs should simply join a premade, themselves, is flawed. Why? Because that solution would FORCE those of group A to play the game in a way they do not want to. Of course, then many of group B will respond by saying that it's the way the game was "meant" to be played, because it is an MMO, which by nature means that you are supposed to play with others. Then I would respond by pointing out that players that solo queue, are actually IN FACT playing with others, by doing so. They are simply using the system to find a group for them, rather than having to find the time and make the commitments to form or join their own.

 

Here's what I never understand, philosophically. People say they want to play the way they want, but what they really want to do is succeed playing the way they want. You can play however you want (insert joke about strength geared commandos), but that comes with consequences. The consequences of solo queuing is that the other 7 members of your team are completely random. Given this is a team based game where good team work will absolutely trump individual skill this is putting yourself behind the curve from the outset. That's your choice. You chose to play that way and thems the breaks.

 

You may also choose to not optimize your gear. You may also choose to not use keybinds. You may also choose not to use stims or grenades. That is all a choice, and arguments from the casual side can absolutely be made for all of them (since someone accused a similar line of reasoning of being a strawman or a slippery slope argument). But you are putting yourself at a disadvantage against people who DO use optimized gear, keybinds, stims, grenades, and then premade. Your performance will always be lower against people who are playing to win, and thats the consequence of your choice. Live with it or make a new choice.

 

Those of group A have a valid gripe, because their game play is being negatively impacted by those of group B! Yet the opposite can not be said about group B. In fact, group B basically depends on group A, in the games current state! But group A actually in no way depends on group B. If there was a solo only queue, WZ queues would be just fine, and PuGs would be quite happy.

 

You say that, but I don't believe it. Like I said people will still get killed in short order by very well geared players. The skilled will continue to roll over the unskilled. Also I can't count the number of games I've lost because my premade was trying to carry even 2 crappy pugs (God help you if you have 4 pugs that are completely worthless). Don't tell me our games aren't negatively impacted. For that matter I've seen guilds with very good premades lose games because THEIR pugs were horrible.

 

The difference is, as I said, you're forgetting that our other argument is WE DO NOT WANT HIGHER QUEUE TIMES.

 

What we want is a much more robust matchmaking system, which on a normal warzone level might not even require cross server queuing (though cross server will always make for better matchmaking were such a system in place). I honestly think that if pugs were going against premades of basically the same skill level they'd be a lot happier. It's not the premades that roll over you like you aren't there. It's the premades of very well geared, high skill players using all the tools available to them. I've had premades show up on my team that I would MUCH rather were on the other team, even if I was solo queuing.

 

Matching up people of similar skill would make for better games for EVERYONE without impacting queue times as a completely separate solo queue.

 

The problem with having a solo only queue, is that those in a premade must then join a premade only queue. And if there's one thing premades are good at doing, it's shooting themselves in the foot! Typically a small number of (or even one) elitist groups will dominate the server, and go to great lengths to stomp out any competition (Granted, some servers are getting wise and actually trying to breed more competition rather than just trying to crush all opposing teams, but this is still limited.). This is actually an effect I have seen in many MMO's, not just this one.

 

And then those same bad premades I mentioned, who God help em are probably doing the best they can, get matched only against those top tier teams. Game negatively impacted. Or we could get some proper matchmaking so that doesn't happen.

 

As another side note: I love the irony of how those of group B, tell those of group A that they need to simply join a premade themselves - Yet if they actually DID, we'd see the eventual outcome of what I described in the paragraph above. Premade players can say all they want about PuGers, but the absolute truth, is that whether they know it or not, they actually depend on them. Without PuGers, WZ's would slowly but surely die off.

 

Yep, you need solo queuers to backfill when the other solo queuers quit. So by your own admission splitting the queues would negatively impact premade players because their bracket would slowly die off forcing them to play the game in a way they don't want (sans grouping with friends/guildies). That seems to be your argument. Definitely sounds like we shouldn't implement different queues then.

 

Maybe some form of matchmaking...

 

In my personal opinion, there is one compromise that I feel works in everyone's best interests. Each WZ team should have one premade "slot." You would be required to have a team of 4, to join the queue as a premade team. In order for you, as a premade group, to be placed into a game by the system, there would need to be another premade of 4 in the queue, that would be placed in the opposing team's "slot." So if there were 16 solo queuers, and only one premade group, queued, then the system would start a game with the 16 solo players, and the 4 in the premade would have to wait until another premade queues. To make up for this disparity, when there are 2 premades queued, they are put at the top of the queue, above the soloers.

 

This is your solution that works in everyone's interest? Methinks you have not thought this through properly.

 

Of course, this type of system would still allow for one-sided games due to one premade being vastly superior to the other. But the very same thing could happen in a solo only queue, if one team gets too many bad players. There's no eliminating this type of thing completely, but it would be minimized.

 

You know what would minimize it a lot more? Proper matchmaking.

 

The main downside, would be that you couldn't queue as a group of 3 or less. Like I said, it's a compromise. Solo queuers, would rather have solo only queue, so they would be compromising as well. But overall, this compromise would balance things greatly, since it wouldn't allow for one team to have a premade, and the other to not have one. It would also not allow a team to have more than one premade.

 

So now we punish the people who tend to premade in groups of 2-3? That's not a compromise. So the poor guy who logs on 5th, instead of just splitting the two premades into 3+2 now is forced to solo queue and hope he gets to play with his friends (and if he does get lucky, that team now has effectively a 5 man premade). I'd think sending the group of 2 to one WZ and the group of 3 to another (as very often happens even if you're trying to synch your queue) would be a lot more fair to the pugs than putting one 4 man premade in a WZ.

 

 

Also, if you wanted to queue as a group less than 4, the system should at least insure that your entire group is in the same game - So you would at least have a chance of being on the same team, but would also have a chance of being put in opposite teams, playing against each other. Sounds fun to me, personally.

 

If I want to play against my friends I just put us in seperate groups. Sounds pretty dumb to me to not know from one match to the other whether you're going to be playing with your friend or against them.

 

 

TL;DR Your idea is not very good, and better matchmaking would solve a lot more problems and leave no one screwed.

[TridusSWTOR]

For starters, this game was already made so insanely simple so that players who aren't good or don't want to spend time practicing can still feel viable, so nou.

Additionally, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what ranked pvp is. Ranked PVP is a large, coordinated effort meant to increase the size of one's ePeen (requiring a high degree of skill, coordination, and an appropriate group composition). It is not the place where 3-4 random friends group up and try to have some fun and kill some time. Pugs that argue that groups should only be doing ranked display their close-mindedness and undercut their validity, so nou.

Lastly, you are complaining that people are making friends and using voice communication (which 99% of is us screwing around) because you stated that you do not want to put in the work required to do that. While I disagree with you on the fundamental level of "Voice chat is something that is fun, light hearted, and by no means a compulsory unpleasantness," your argument could be extended to question why players who have spent more time getting better than you should be allowed to queue against you. And if you're really going to complain about why people who are willing to do more should be allowed to benefit from their hard work...... nou.

TL;DR: If you maintain your current mindset and don't work to better yourself in any way, I suggest you cancel your account on July 4th because TOR has no need for people like you............. nou

 

So these conditions in order to join a ranked match. I.E. Only queuing up if you have the perfect group setup. Who put those rules in there? So you can't join a ranked match unless you meet that requirement?

 

So basically you want every possible advantage to make sure you end up having a fair chance at winning.

 

Sounds like that the OP wants.

 

[TridusSWTOR]

Bump because we seriously need a proper matchmaking system. Anyone with a brain can admit the current system is not working. I group and solo queue often, the system repels the vast majority of the player base which happen to be PUG oriented casuals while catering to a severe minority, the more organized pre-mades. While I do think both sides deserve adequate attention, the answer is not to force grouping on everyone, we desperately need cross realm function to resuscitate Ranked for the Premades and adequate matchmaking when they happen to trickle down into Normals and also to keep games competitive instead of one sided, I have been spewing this for several months. If it doesn't happen soon we will indeed lose most of the PUG Minded casual people, which believe it or not compromise a much bigger portion of the player base than do any other classification of people. Losing the vast majority of any game's player base is bad for the game as a whole.

 

This is the post that should be quoted and sticky'd to these types of threads. Very well put and right to the point.

 

Let PuGs play with PuGS and offer competitive pvp guilds a bigger player base to work with by adding cross-server queue's.

[TridusSWTOR]

TL;DR - Because insulting others makes me feel better about myself....

 

Sounds like he was just providing information to help him become a better human being.

 

Oh, I see the problem now.

[Xanas]

Nobody can defending this... This game needs 2 options... single and with group ques...

 

I had it with immortal groups where i just spawn and get killed, spawn and get killed...

 

In my view anybody defending this curent system in its curent condition is a bloody retard.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Xanas

[Butwaldgrim]

And this, people, is why we can't get anything done in Washington. The PUGS vs. the Pre-Mades. And never the 'twain shall meet. I love it!

 

QQ QQ QQ!

Edited February 21, 2013 by Butwaldgrim
misspelling

[TUXs]

Nobody can defending this... This game needs 2 options... single and with group ques...

 

I had it with immortal groups where i just spawn and get killed, spawn and get killed...

 

In my view anybody defending this curent system in its curent condition is a bloody retard.

 

I'll defend the system as it is, and I'm not a "bloody retard"...because it's NOT as broken as so many of you claim. I PuG quite often, probably 30+% of the time. I also form groups of 4 as often as I can, but I probably have a 3 person group for over half of my grouped WZ's. No matter which way I've grouped, I win some and I lose some.

 

If you spawn and get killed, you're doing it wrong. Take another exit, be a distraction for your team or WAIT for more of your team...often when you die in the spawn area it's because your group is dropping down like lemmings, 1 at a time, being focused individually by 4+ players....I foolishly do it too, but I know it's stupid.

 

Another thing...when I solo queue, I have an equal chance of being paired with a 4-man premade as the other team does. Premade teams don't mean an automatic win. My 4-man premades are the first 3 guys that agree to do a WZ with me, not some super select group of players who all compliment each other.

 

The main issue I see in WZ's is players not knowing what the hell they're supposed to do (PuG or premade)...EVERYONE needs to think in WZ's to win. When it's 4v1, chances are another area is getting hit hard. When we take a node, SOMEONE, ANYONE, needs to stay. Last guy there is the guy I EXPECT to stay and guard. Just because you have stealth, doesn't mean you can sneak around doing nothing all match waiting for an opening - your DPS IS needed! Watch your map. Know the toons guarding and keep an eye on their health. CALL incomings...ALWAYS! 1 or all 8, call them!!! If there's a stalemate somewhere, go to another node because even solo you'll likely pull at least 1-2 of the enemy with you. The reason PuG groups seem to lose more often is simply poor play in my experience, not OP premades. Learn your class, learn your rotations, know your abilities.

[Xanas]

You have no clue of what you are talking about. Last game i had to defend the doors... Yeah take another rote to defend the door... Then on that site you had 2 fart bomber + 2 ops healers... 6500 or so damage on those farts(i play a Sage)...

[Briggs_Knightly]

This is all silly of course...

 

IF people who form pre-made teams are saying that there is no benefit for pre-made over a group of pugs then they will NOT have any objection to allowing a pug only Q... RIGHT???

 

The reality is that when EA gives the 70% of the population what they want for fear of losing even more accounts... Those pre-made teams are gonna cry like a little children who just had their sucker pulled from them. TRUTH!

[Xanas]

Its simple make 2 options:

 

1-Que solo for SOLO play.

2-Que with group and have only groups there...

 

Only reason people don't what it this way its becasue they ENJOY pugs stomping and try to discuise it as "we just whant to play with friends and its a MMO" nonsense...

[Philelectric]

I'm a full time solo pugger and I approve the 4 men premades in any Warzone. Most of them are not using voice chat, the only small advantage they have is: they know 3 other guys in the WZ so they know someone will help them when needed.

 

If you remove 4 men premades from the solo queu you might as well remove any type of group pve content that require less than 8 men. Or at least give me every flashpoints with an ''easy'' difficulty for lvl 50 so I can solo them and get THE SAME REWARD.

 

I'm pretty sure any video game website will tag SWTOR as MASSIVE multiplayer online role play game. There is a massive amount of players, join a guild, find friends and form your own 4 men group.

 

I'm not a math expert but I'm pretty sure the ration of My team have a premade and the other team have a premade is around 50% so its a 50% theorical win.

 

If you are good, the premade in your team become a 5 men and if the 3 others are good its almost like a 8 men premade.

 

Also, what is the difference between two 4 men premades without voice chat in the same group and 8 pugs without voice chat in the same group?

 

Finaly,

 

Steps to have LEET pug groups

 

step 1: get a voice chat (You might get the most popular)

step 2: type the info of your voice chat in the ops chat

step 3: look like a premade and send some baddies to the forum so they will ask for a NERF to intelligence of players.

 

OH BIOWARE PLZ NERF THE INTELLIGENCE!!! Bioware you should hire some mercenaries and send them to the house of a good player to cut 3-4 of his fingers to put him on the skill level of everyone. Dont kill him, you want his money.

[Xanas]

I'm a full time solo pugger and I approve the 4 men premades in any Warzone. Most of them are not using voice chat, the only small advantage they have is: they know 3 other guys in the WZ so they know someone will help them when needed.

 

If you remove 4 men premades from the solo queu you might as well remove any type of group pve content that require less than 8 men. Or at least give me every flashpoints with an ''easy'' difficulty for lvl 50 so I can solo them and get THE SAME REWARD.

 

I'm pretty sure any video game website will tag SWTOR as MASSIVE multiplayer online role play game. There is a massive amount of players, join a guild, find friends and form your own 4 men group.

 

I'm not a math expert but I'm pretty sure the ration of My team have a premade and the other team have a premade is around 50% so its a 50% theorical win.

 

If you are good, the premade in your team become a 5 men and if the 3 others are good its almost like a 8 men premade.

 

Also, what is the difference between two 4 men premades without voice chat in the same group and 8 pugs without voice chat in the same group?

 

Finaly,

 

Steps to have LEET pug groups

 

step 1: get a voice chat (You might get the most popular)

step 2: type the info of your voice chat in the ops chat

step 3: look like a premade and send some baddies to the forum so they will ask for a NERF to intelligence of players.

 

OH BIOWARE PLZ NERF THE INTELLIGENCE!!! Bioware you should hire some mercenaries and send them to the house of a good player to cut 3-4 of his fingers to put him on the skill level of everyone. Dont kill him, you want his money.

 

Haha do you actualy belive you are going to make us belive you are not running around in premades?

Oh and i love this one:

 

step 1: get a voice chat (You might get the most popular)

step 2: type the info of your voice chat in the ops chat

 

Then w8 for them to get the same voice chat and down... Then create an account, then set it up (setings and what not) then join the chanel and before that ends let's hope the game is not ended and you did not lose as your entire team is AFK...

[Vember]

Why not also make separate queues for those who don't want to play with expertise as well then?

 

Hell, lets make separate queues for those who wants to play without tanks, or without heals, or without dps.

 

Oh, and the BS you're saying about the game dying if you don't get what you want.. That's just what that is, ********.

 

No need to go to such ridiculous extremes. A ranked queue already exists for premade groups, they just choose not to use it.

[criminalheretic]

No need to go to such ridiculous extremes. A ranked queue already exists for premade groups, they just choose not to use it.

 

Just like the ability to group up with 3 other people, exists for everyone. Some choose not to do so.

[Vember]

Just like the ability to group up with 3 other people, exists for everyone. Some choose not to do so.

 

But why wouldn't a premade choose to play against other premades?

[Xanas]

Just like the ability to group up with 3 other people, exists for everyone. Some choose not to do so.

 

Same for getting bots or haks but that does not make it right... Just like its not right to troup 4 coordinated, hand picked classes, full voice chat with random pugs... Its like placing Barcelona with some random backyard team and calling it fair play.

[SWEtree]

I just look at all the solo queuers and I think, "you don't have to live like this!"

 

lol

 

+1

[-IceHawk-]

But why wouldn't a premade choose to play against other premades?

 

What in this game makes you think there is such a thing as a Solo Queue?

 

IT DOES NOT EXIST