PUGs UNITE!!!

[Vember]

What in this game makes you think there is such a thing as a Solo Queue?

 

IT DOES NOT EXIST

 

What does that have to do with the question you quoted?

Edited March 15, 2013 by Vember

[-IceHawk-]

What does that have to do with the question you quoted?

 

You are making an a priori assumption that Premades and Solo players were intended to/should be segregated.

 

There is absolutely no evidence in-game to substantiate that point, ergo, the differentiation between Solo and Grouped visa-vie this discussion is inherently fallacious.

 

The only real segregation in this game is Ranked versus Regular.

 

And Premades =/= Ranked Groups

 

In short, Premades do play other premades in regular warzones.

Edited March 15, 2013 by -IceHawk-

[Vember]

You are making an a priori assumption that Premades and Solo players were intended to/should be segregated.

 

 

Ranked has no [Queue Solo] option. I ask again, why wouldn't premades rather play against other premades? Using Ranked, it's guaranteed.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Vember

[-IceHawk-]

Ranked has no [Queue Solo] option. I ask again, why wouldn't premades rather play against other premades? Using Ranked, it's guaranteed.

 

Which is an indication that Ranked is not meant for Solo players; it speaks nothing to the characteristics of Regular Warzones.

[-IceHawk-]

Man, your ninja edits are annoying, just write a new post already!

 

A "Premade" is any group of between 2 and 4 players.

A Ranked Team is a group of 8-players.

 

They are not the same things, and ironically they occupy mutually exclusive Queue environments.

 

What does that tell you?

[criminalheretic]

Ranked has no [Queue Solo] option. I ask again, why wouldn't premades rather play against other premades? Using Ranked, it's guaranteed.

 

Like you said, it has no queue solo option. It also has no 'queue 4' option. Why would you presume it is easier for us to find 7 people of perfect comp, than for you to make a friend and queue up with them?

 

Demanding people find a group of 8 and queue for ranked, because you are unwilling to find a group of 4 for normals = hypocrisy.

[Vember]

Like you said, it has no queue solo option. It also has no 'queue 4' option. Why would you presume it is easier for us to find 7 people of perfect comp, than for you to make a friend and queue up with them?

 

Demanding people find a group of 8 and queue for ranked, because you are unwilling to find a group of 4 for normals = hypocrisy.

 

The same could be said for you. Solo players have the option to queue for unranked randoms, yet the premades demand they find groups. If you're so set on having premades, how hard is it to find four more people? Again, if you were after actual competition, that's exactly what you would do. Don't try to beat around the bush, like you said earlier: It's about winning. People premade to play specifically against pugs because when you queue in unranked, the majority of the time that's what you'll face. You can't honestly expect any kind of competition putting your group in the unranked queue, because you and I and everybody else knows thats where casual pug players go for pvp.

[Arlanon]

so when does the part about losing you come?

 

i was hoping it would have been by now

[criminalheretic]

The same could be said for you. Solo players have the option to queue for unranked randoms, yet the premades demand they find groups. If you're so set on having premades, how hard is it to find four more people? Again, if you were after actual competition, that's exactly what you would do. Don't try to beat around the bush, like you said earlier: It's about winning. People premade to play specifically against pugs because when you queue in unranked, the majority of the time that's what you'll face. You can't honestly expect any kind of competition putting your group in the unranked queue, because you and I and everybody else knows thats where casual pug players go for pvp.

 

Wrong, no one is "demanding" solo players find a group. In fact if your accusation regarding the nature of premades is correct, then the evil premades would specifically want people to keep queuing solo, so we can continue our alleged destruction of people's PvP dreams.

 

But because your assumption is incorrect, and premades are not evil, and DO want some better competition, we are saying "Hey, you want to win more often? Try grouping up with other people. It worked for me, it should work for you too. In fact, if you're good, you can group up with me! But if you're not good, well premades aren't really the problem are they?"

[-IceHawk-]

But because your assumption is incorrect, and premades are not evil, and DO want some better competition, we are saying "Hey, you want to win more often? Try grouping up with other people. It worked for me, it should work for you too. In fact, if you're good, you can group up with me! But if you're not good, well premades aren't really the problem are they?"

 

Pretty much, this....

[Briggs_Knightly]

What in this game makes you think there is such a thing as a Solo Queue?

 

IT DOES NOT EXIST

 

Games only continue to exist if they offer enjoyable options for large groups of their subscribers.

There is a large group of PVPers that want a solo Q option.

If EA does not provide for these players they will lose them.

 

I have already stated that I will spend my money elsewhere if EA does not offer solo Q option by Independence Day this year. I know that 1 subscriber does not matter BUT many subscribers do.

 

If all the solo Q PVPers quit SWTOR, then PVP will quickly die in this game...

If all the 4 man gank squads quit this game... EA will actually increase their subscription base over time.

 

What should EA do if they want to keep this game going long term... hmmm

MAYBE a developer will finally listen to REASON...

[-IceHawk-]

Yeah, after the user increase associated with Free-to-Play and the demonstrated willingness of this community to spend insane amounts of money on useless Cartel Market items, I am going to assume the Developers are quaking in their boots about the casual PVP community and its deadline to unsub....

[criminalheretic]

Games only continue to exist if they offer enjoyable options for large groups of their subscribers.

There is a large group of PVPers that want a solo Q option.

If EA does not provide for these players they will lose them.

 

I have already stated that I will spend my money elsewhere if EA does not offer solo Q option by Independence Day this year. I know that 1 subscriber does not matter BUT many subscribers do.

 

If all the solo Q PVPers quit SWTOR, then PVP will quickly die in this game...

If all the 4 man gank squads quit this game... EA will actually increase their subscription base over time.

 

What should EA do if they want to keep this game going long term... hmmm

MAYBE a developer will finally listen to REASON...

 

The assumption here is that solo players represent the largest portion of the subscriber base. All I can say is what has been said 100 times already... If solo players outnumber the PvP guilds so much (in Warzones), then you shouldn't be running into premades that often.

 

The other perspective:

 

People that are serious about PvP, are the people that take the time to join PvP guilds. And while those guilds might only make up 20% of the total game population, they probably make up 60% of the WARZONE population. You don't design Operations around the guy that does one once a month because he is bored, and you don't design PvP queue structure around the guy that plays 10 matches a week. If you play a lot more than that? Join a guild. Seriously. You don't want to join a guild? That is your choice, but understand you are CHOOSING to put yourself at a disadvantage, don't try to force that disadvantage on people who did NOT choose it.

[-IceHawk-]

I am sorry, but logic has no place here.

 

PVP should totally be balanced and redesigned around casuals who play less than a dozen games per week and complain on the forums when their Recruit/Black Hole mixed Commando is wrecked by a min/maxed WH Sniper....

 

...I mean, it makes sense to me!

 

The Bubble-Stun/Smash threads were more enjoyable than these, at least those were based on real issues...

[MidichIorian]

I think you're a bit stuck on what the intention behind mixed queues was. It's obvious that BW thought it would be a good idea to mix people left and right, or simply didnt have the time to work on it, but that doesnt mean that it's the right way to go. BW has, as far as I know, not much experience with MM systems so that could be one reason. It doesnt really matter how you twist and turn things because fact still remains: A lot of people are having a problem with it and that should be enough for them to fix it.

 

And it's not like people, we, are asking for the system to only match premades against other premades and potentially give them 30 minute queues. What we want is some form of filter that atleast tries to match people based on some hidden rating or team size.

 

It has reached the point where the tight games are so rare that you will remember them for months and pugs vs premades is one of the reasons for that.

 

On another note, one thing that really would help the situation, without having to touch upon the whole premade issue, would be if healers were able to queue as their role. Yes, people can respec but queueing as heals when you're not would be to screw yourself over. That would solve one of the biggest advantages premades have, team composition. The premades would of course also have the option of queueing without a healer and having to rely on an ousider but regardless, both teams would have one ( at start atleast. Too messy to have to backfill a heal role in the event that the healer drops so any class would fill that spot).

 

But again, I think the real issue is that we don't have some form of ratings. Good players should in theory, even when pugging, win more than poorly skilled players, or atleast perform on a much higher level stats'wise. It should be fairly easy to create a system for this.If you always play the objective, such as guarding, you're probably going to win more just because of that and if you are a healer or pure dps you're probably going to place high on the scoreboard, regardless of outcome. There are ofcourse some exceptions, such as snipers who spend an entire huttball game padding damage from a ledge in the background. Perhaps not the most helpful way but other warzones would balance the rating. Also, it would be stupid to pad stats and then get a rating where you actually have to face good players who shut will you down in one sec. Hence it would be better to play the objective and then perhaps get nice stats doing that.

Edited March 16, 2013 by MidichIorian

[DariusCalera]

I think you're a bit stuck on what the intention behind mixed queues was. It's obvious that BW thought it would be a good idea to mix people left and right, or simply didnt have the time to work on it, but that doesnt mean that it's the right way to go. BW has, as far as I know, not much experience with MM systems so that could be one reason. It doesnt really matter how you twist and turn things because fact still remains: A lot of people are having a problem with it and that should be enough for them to fix it.

 

And it's not like people, we, are asking for the system to only match premades against other premades and potentially give them 30 minute queues. What we want is some form of filter that atleast tries to match people based on some hidden rating or team size.

 

It has reached the point where the tight games are so rare that you will remember them for months and pugs vs premades is one of the reasons for that.

 

On another note, one thing that really would help the situation, without having to touch upon the whole premade issue, would be if healers were able to queue as their role. Yes, people can respec but queueing as heals when you're not would be to screw yourself over. That would solve one of the biggest advantages premades have, team composition. The premades would of course also have the option of queueing without a healer and having to rely on an ousider but regardless, both teams would have one ( at start atleast. Too messy to have to backfill a heal role in the event that the healer drops so any class would fill that spot).

 

But again, I think the real issue is that we don't have some form of ratings. Good players should in theory, even when pugging, win more than poorly skilled players, or atleast perform on a much higher level stats'wise. It should be fairly easy to create a system for this.If you always play the objective, such as guarding, you're probably going to win more just because of that and if you are a healer or pure dps you're probably going to place high on the scoreboard, regardless of outcome. There are ofcourse some exceptions, such as snipers who spend an entire huttball game padding damage from a ledge in the background. Perhaps not the most helpful way but other warzones would balance the rating. Also, it would be stupid to pad stats and then get a rating where you actually have to face good players who shut will you down in one sec. Hence it would be better to play the objective and then perhaps get nice stats doing that.

 

Of course, then you could also run into the issue of not having any healers that share a teams rating. Which then increases queue times which causes players to come to the forums to QQ about something else.

 

A rating system is a great idea, in theory, and it would work if we had a large enough pool of players where all roles were represented some what statistically even, but we don't.

 

The current system works, players may not like it, but there is nothing about it that can't be overcome by a little work.

 

Of course, it also helps if people understand their classes. Had a 30 minute discussion today with a commando who was in full WH (unaugmented) about why he was running around gunnery specced but with his plasma cell on and when was he going to augment his gear.

 

Reason for plasma cell: He liked setting people on fire and he didn't care that Gunnery was designed for the Armor piercing cell.

 

No augments: He simply did not want to add them.

 

The same individual later complained in a WZ about doing low damage and dying really quickly.

[MidichIorian]

Of course, then you could also run into the issue of not having any healers that share a teams rating. Which then increases queue times which causes players to come to the forums to QQ about something else.

A proper system would not put people on hour long queues. It would search for let's say 2 minutes and then expand the range. Most queues are often not instant, in the sense that they pop the second you queue up, so it wouldnt change much. I mean, while being in a warzone against or with a good premade I've been talking to people who are playing a parallel warzone against/with another good premade. There's no excuse fo that to happen when those two premades could have played eachother. But it would require that the system actually tries to match people based on some criterias.

 

i don't think finding healers will be an issue because there are healers in more or less every game. It does suck when one team has three though and the other zero.

 

Halo 2 was, even at the end of its' life cycle, able to match players somewhat accurately based on skill levels. I'm pretty sure that most Swtor servers have enough people online for atleast 15 hours per day to match that. The filter could be more "lenient" during slow hours just to speed things up, or simply not active at all. Even 3 minutes with filter during primetime followed by no filter, in the event that the system can't find anyone during the first 3 minutes, would be an improvement since atleast some games would be filtered.

Edited March 16, 2013 by MidichIorian

[DariusCalera]

i don't think finding healers will be an issue because there are healers in more or less every game. It does suck when one team has three though and the other zero.

 

Queue up a HM FP as a DPS and see how long it takes to find a healer.

 

For all intents and purposes a version of the PvE matchmaking system is what people are requesting and it would come with the same drawbacks. Possibly waiting for hours for the for the queue to pop because it could not find 1 or 2 healers and the same number of tanks.

 

Simply put, people want a well rounded PvP team without having to go out and put together a well rounded PvP team.

[MidichIorian]

Queue up a HM FP as a DPS and see how long it takes to find a healer..

I think tanks are a bigger issue when it comes to FP'es, or atleast half of the problem. Not to mention that in FP'es you have 1 healer for every 2 dps. In a warzone you'd have 1 on 7. Feels like there are more healers playing warzones than being queued for FP'es at any moment too....... but that's just me guessing.

[biguydeadd]

Don't see a problem going up against premades myself.

 

Sure if they're any good our team will usually lose,but it's a different kind of fun trying to better them.

 

Do i think they're cowardly,afraid of a lose,afraid of getting stomped without having their buddies with them wherever they go and knowing they have a clear advantge over everyone else that isnt using voice?I'm sure there's an element of that in a lot of premades thinking.

 

But it doesn't happen that often(at least to me as pug)it adds diversity in who you're facing and tactics they're using,and like others say,it is an MMO.Keep as is.

[DariusCalera]

I think tanks are a bigger issue when it comes to FP'es, or atleast half of the problem. Not to mention that in FP'es you have 1 healer for every 2 dps. In a warzone you'd have 1 on 7. Feels like there are more healers playing warzones than being queued for FP'es at any moment too....... but that's just me guessing.

 

One healer isn't going to do much good. Against any opponent that is halfway competent that healer is going to get burned down the second that they get marked.

 

Is one better than none? Sure, but it still doesn't address people thinking that the only reason that they lost is that they did not have a healer.

 

That healer is not going to stop people from running around like chickens because they have never learned the objectives of a WZ, the healer is also not going to keep people from going AFK, derping around, or failing to call incs.

 

These are the reasons why most PuGs get stomped sometimes and these will continue to be the reasons that some would get stomped even if premades were removed from the queue.

[justdrop]

If EA does not provide for these players they will lose them.

Put your money where your mouth is.

[HBMalachorfive]

Yes we premades have TS, mumble, vent, etc but a good percentage of the time i'll be laughing with my mates at some of the stupid things we do and do something uber noobish like forget to call an inc. I rarely que without being in a group due to the quality of player that our server has, at least i know my mates will actually do the right thing instead of telling me to 'eff off' and that, and i quote, "expertise is a useless stat in WZ's". Yes that was actually said to me when i enquired to why he was wearing Tio gear in our WZ...