I just wish datacrons applied to your entire legacy. It's even worse when you have to do it on all your characters.

Cunning is better if you have the 5% buff. If not, power is better. Either way, they are extremely close, unless you don't spec Imperial Education (which would be dumb.). Personally, I want all the +crit I can get, so I go +cunning.

Yeah, with the addition of Exfiltrate, I don't really see the need for Ghost anymore, in Concealment tree. But even so, Lethality also now has access to Infiltrator (My spec will include it, at least.), and we have Escape Plan + Augmented Shields, and Counterstrike. Overall, our effective mobility may be higher, simply because we will be less affected by CC's and damage. Escape Plan is such an awesome and underrated talent! I used to spend 4 talent points for the same effects, back when it was 2 seperate talents! In fact it baffles me when I see Lethality Ops not spec it.

I think I've been preaching this since I first started playing Lethality. I played Lethality with a new level 10 character, and leveled 100% from WZ's. Thus, I did not even have Cull for some time. But ultimately, I think this really helped me learn to play the spec well, because I was up against level 50's at the time, and had to learn how to make the best use of the abilities I had. By the time I learned Cull, I had already developed a basic playstyle for Lethality, and Cull didn't really serve to change it much. It's more like icing on the cake, than our main ability. It's a lot like Hidden Strike for Concealment. Most Concealment Ops wait until they have it trained, to PvP, or even wait until level 50. More often than not, these players tend to put too much emphasis on Hidden Strike (As I've pointed out in another recent post, so I won't say much more on this here.). The same goes for Cull. Most people that I have seen give Lethality a go, are ones who are already 50 and have been playing Concealment. They look at Cull as being our most important move, and base their playstyle around it. But guess what! It isn't! Honestly, if you were to ask me what our best move was, I'd say Corossive Dart (amped up by our talents + Imperial Brew), or Corossive Grenade, followed by Weakening Blast. In fact, most Lethality Ops only use Weakening Blast when they plan to follow up with Cull, but personally, I use it more often just to increase my DoT damage. But back to the topic of License to Kill. It really all comes down to a little math, and weighing cost vs. benefit. I could get counterstrike, which increases my survivability against maras significantly (and other classes too, ofc, but they are the prime example.), at the cost of having to wait half a second longer with each Cull I use, or, I could be able to Cull half a second more often, yet lose out on an entire move. It could take hundreds or even thousands of Culls, to make up for a single death from not having Counterstrike. And even if it's not a matter of life and death, it certainly still helps you get in or out of a skirmish more quickly, thus increasing your overall DPS. And in 2.0, we will get free Culls, so the energy cost will be even less significant.

Oh, I didn't realize I'd suddenly lose the ability to do these things, if the enemy team doesn't see the AoE circle. Setting up your AoE moves well, will always have a place, target circle or not. And hell, I'd be perfectly happy if there was no target circle even for the one using the ability!!

So change the animation, if it's too much of a problem! But honestly, the area of effect not blatantly being given away, is a GOOD thing!! This line of reasoning, shows that AoE circles are, at best, a band-aid fix.

You're joking right? This is your argument? Agents becoming OP because of it!? So getting hit once or twice by the ability, which has a long CD, and which you yourself pointed out can ALREADY be forced on them, is somehow going to be OP? I'm sorry, but no. I would have stuck with the graphics angle, if I were you. But even that is not enough justification for it. PvP should never be tailored for clickers and keyboard turners! The more avenues there are for skill to shine, the better the PvP will be. AoE circles reduce the need for skill, and that is bad.

Agreed. It's 2013. If your computer is running on a Dorito chip, and can't render AoE effects, you deserve to get hit by them, lol. Go play a game with crappy graphics that your computer can handle, like WoW. Our gameplay should not be diminished simply because a handful of people are playing on garbage machines. And God forbid people actually get HIT by channeled AoE effects! Those circles need to go.

Operative Cull has no cd, and does over double the damage of sniper Cull. And Operative can heal and stealth, etc..

I'm not sure the +2% Alacrity will be worth trading Slip Away for. From what I'm reading the impact of Alacrity is, it may not be worth it. We're still going to need +10% accuracy, which will be taken in place of +Alacrity. Then we'll probably want the higher power/crit/surge, instead, as well. The extra energy regen is pretty insignificant, and I'm not really sure the faster activation speed will be significant either, especially with mostly instant skills.

Hmm, not speccing Slip Away is an interesting idea. I'm kind of bummed they got rid of the +run speed.

Yeah, but he also didn't have DoT's spread out, proccing him energy.

If the Operative opens from stealth, Operative wins. The circumstance where sniper has an edge? Hmm, honestly, I fear snipers less than any class in the game. A stationary turret has one huge weakness - Walls!! But our evasion is far more effective than theirs, in a toe to toe fight, because our damage is mostly yellow, yet they do a lot of white. And it lasts a second longer now. With hidden strike + shiv, you have a very high chance of chaining 3 Culls. The sniper Cull is on a CD, and does half the damage of ours (a little less than half, actually.). DoT's are cleansed with Toxic scan and/or evasion. Also, with counterstrike trained, you can cleanse all of their slows. And if they Exfiltrate and try to escape, we do the same; ours is shorter, but we can sever tendon/nade, or double exfiltrate if needed. Plus, in a 1v1, we can flash bang and heal up, but they can't. Or we can LoS and heal (and if they chase, maybe even get a debilitate in.).

I was actually considering the same thing. But I already only spec 1 point into License to Kill, as it is, and with the addition of Fatality, Cull energy cost is even less important. EDIT: Also, I assume the tooltip for Infiltrator is wrong, and is supposed to be +15% movement speed and +2 stealth level (otherwise that would make you impossible to detect, lol.). I always found that the lack of this talent was one of the major deficiencies of Lethality vs. Concealment, and now that it only costs 2 points instead of 3, it's accessable for us!) Honestly, I'd put no talents into License to Kill, if it wasn't needed to train higher tier. A 13% reduction of energy cost, which is regenerated in half a second, is just too minor for a skill that is not used often enough. I just can't justify the talent cost. Precision Instruments was different, because it reduced several skills, which were used FAR more frequently.

I've been planning 2.0 specs, and figured I'd see what other people have thought of. This is the spec I'm currently leaning toward: http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/operative/230/?build=000300000000000000000000000000002300200000000000000000000000000000322021012222212112001103200100&ver=20 Since we don't need to keep stim boost up anymore, that makes Incisive Action much less useful. And since Precision Instruments no longer reduces energy cost of darts, it's also not worth it. With the addition of exfiltrate, shiv speed boost, better shield probe, and Infiltrator....I'm going to be one tough bastard to kill. I assume that most will spec Devouring Microbes, but I've always felt it was a worthless talent. And now that being slowed affects Exfiltrate, it's even more reason to want Counterstrike.

This basically sums up my feelings! I've been playing Lethality for over a year, back before we even had Lingering Toxins, and still loved it! If it becomes FoTM, I might actually consider quitting, crazy at it sounds to some. You'd think I'd be happy to have all these changes, lol. I guess we'll have to see how things go. Maybe Concealment will still be more popular. But geez, I'm going to be unkillable after 2.0. I hardly ever die, as it is!

I'm not one to make a big deal over 3% crit. I just like to point out that the often accepted "30%" crit, isn't where a Lethality Op wants to be. I do feel that going over 40% is definitely not worth it, thus why I don't. And for 40% to be worth it, you need to have a very high cunning stat. But no matter what playstyle you use, or how good you are at energy management - You can always do with some better energy regen.

Not really. You could be the most skilled player in the world, and still get stomped playing against a group of "good" players. Skill only goes so far when you are solo queued. And I'm sure you have seen your fair share of solo queuers, whom you immediately recognize, because they are known for their skill. Whether you are a PuG player or premade player, has little to do with your skill. And both of them also have unique skillsets of their own. I think the main issue, is that premade players tend to look down on PuGers, and this is understandably upsetting to them. It's also often difficult for a PuGer to prove his superiority to a premade, because the premade has their whole team to back them up. You seriously can't deny that premade players tend to have a lack of respect for PuGers, as if their playstyle is superior, or more popular. Honestly, I'd bet that most people that play WZ's are solo queuers.

I've had this type of discussion a million times, in far far too many different games. There's usually two sides to the discussion: A)The PuGers, who are tired of having less fun because of premades causing one-sided games. B)The premade players, who always make the argument: "You should join a premade, yourself, instead of complaining." Just a side note about these players - Typically, they are people who lack the balls to play alone, and rely on team so that they can have easier wins. Of course, they will tell you that they do it because they want to play with friends; but the reality is that they would never be caught dead outside of a premade. I am all for players being able to play with friends. I do it often myself. But I ALSO enjoy solo queuing, because I am a casual gamer. What it really comes down to, is that the argument group B typically uses, trying to say that PuGs should simply join a premade, themselves, is flawed. Why? Because that solution would FORCE those of group A to play the game in a way they do not want to. Of course, then many of group B will respond by saying that it's the way the game was "meant" to be played, because it is an MMO, which by nature means that you are supposed to play with others. Then I would respond by pointing out that players that solo queue, are actually IN FACT playing with others, by doing so. They are simply using the system to find a group for them, rather than having to find the time and make the commitments to form or join their own. Those of group A have a valid gripe, because their game play is being negatively impacted by those of group B! Yet the opposite can not be said about group B. In fact, group B basically depends on group A, in the games current state! But group A actually in no way depends on group B. If there was a solo only queue, WZ queues would be just fine, and PuGs would be quite happy. The solution? That's the tough part! The problem with having a solo only queue, is that those in a premade must then join a premade only queue. And if there's one thing premades are good at doing, it's shooting themselves in the foot! Typically a small number of (or even one) elitist groups will dominate the server, and go to great lengths to stomp out any competition (Granted, some servers are getting wise and actually trying to breed more competition rather than just trying to crush all opposing teams, but this is still limited.). This is actually an effect I have seen in many MMO's, not just this one. As another side note: I love the irony of how those of group B, tell those of group A that they need to simply join a premade themselves - Yet if they actually DID, we'd see the eventual outcome of what I described in the paragraph above. Premade players can say all they want about PuGers, but the absolute truth, is that whether they know it or not, they actually depend on them. Without PuGers, WZ's would slowly but surely die off. In my personal opinion, there is one compromise that I feel works in everyone's best interests. Each WZ team should have one premade "slot." You would be required to have a team of 4, to join the queue as a premade team. In order for you, as a premade group, to be placed into a game by the system, there would need to be another premade of 4 in the queue, that would be placed in the opposing team's "slot." So if there were 16 solo queuers, and only one premade group, queued, then the system would start a game with the 16 solo players, and the 4 in the premade would have to wait until another premade queues. To make up for this disparity, when there are 2 premades queued, they are put at the top of the queue, above the soloers. Of course, this type of system would still allow for one-sided games due to one premade being vastly superior to the other. But the very same thing could happen in a solo only queue, if one team gets too many bad players. There's no eliminating this type of thing completely, but it would be minimized. The main downside, would be that you couldn't queue as a group of 3 or less. Like I said, it's a compromise. Solo queuers, would rather have solo only queue, so they would be compromising as well. But overall, this compromise would balance things greatly, since it wouldn't allow for one team to have a premade, and the other to not have one. It would also not allow a team to have more than one premade. Also, if you wanted to queue as a group less than 4, the system should at least insure that your entire group is in the same game - So you would at least have a chance of being on the same team, but would also have a chance of being put in opposite teams, playing against each other. Sounds fun to me, personally.

Yeah, people tend to go by Concealment guides for their stat placement, but it's not 100% applicable to Lethality. Pushing crit a little bit higher than usual, is a good idea for Lethality, for example. This is because of the +energy on crits. A good way to do this, is increase your cunning as much as possible (DEFINITELY go for +cunning augments only.), since the crit bonus from cunning is seperate from the soft cap on +crit. Then boost your crit stat a bit higher than normal, as well. I like to be at about 40% or so, but I've heard of some going even higher. And as you mention, accuracy is actually a factor for us, unlike Concealment. You definitely want to put a little bit into it, since a 10% lower chance of your white Cull damage or Rifle Shot missing, is going to do a lot more than a few extra points in surge, which should already be soft capped anyways. And if you don't use Rifle Shot? Then you must have an unlimited pool of energy at all times, unlike me . Either that, or you have room for improvement!

Awww geez, if too many people go Lethality I'll have to switch to Concealment!! Lol. Or Madness Sorc. I decided to try Lethality, also because it was so rare, and I typically try to choose the classes/specs that are considered most underpowered. It's awesome what Lethality can do in the right hands. Just get used to needing like 25+ hotkeys.

There is no such thing as too early, for Lethality OR Concealment. Starting at an earlier level will teach you the importance of our basic skills, and how to use them well. Too often, people don't start PvPing until they are 50, or until they at least have Hidden Strike or Cull, but then they often tend to lean on those skills too much, and make less use of the plethora of other skills we have. I PvPed from level 10 to 50, with 0 PvE, and it gave me an invaluable perspective on the class. For example - Pretty much every Concealment Op I ever see, basically has it in their head that if they are stealthed, they must find a target to Hidden Strike. But what if there is no good target? What if it's a skirmish where going in and using hidden strike will merely result in you getting focused and killed? By the time a Concealment Op finally finds a target to open up on, the battle may be halfway over already! They could have been using their skills at ranged that whole time, doing way more damage and helping their team way more. I've seen level 10 operatives kill level 50's, solo (Back in the day.), using nothing but Rifle Shot and kiting tactics. It's basic skills like these, that often get neglected by Operatives, and are best learned early on. As Lethality, the most important talent you can train, which you should get before ANY others, is Imperial Brew. Imperial Brew is more important to the spec than even Cull (Which is also why I think hybrid builds suck, because they skip our best talent.).

This. I played Concealment for the first month the game was out, then tried Lethality just to see how it plays. After the first couple days, I was convinced it was utter crap. I even walked to the respec NPC and was about to respec, when I paused for a second and thought, "Have I really given it a good chance? Maybe I'm playing it too much like Concealment." I typically play assassin and stealth classes, in other games, so Concealment seemed like the right fit for me. But I'm damn glad I gave Lethality a chance, because it helped me see the huge flaws with Concealment. Most Concealment players spend too much time in stealth, and get terrible DPS scores at the end of a WZ, and try and justify it by saying that their burst was more useful to the team. Rubbish. And though stealth capping has its uses - Capping the node that the main force is skirmishing over, is even more important. That's what Lethality really shines at. If I played Concealment now, I'd probably play it a lot more like I do Lethality, lol, Concealment can actually get a good DPS score, if they do things right, and realize they actually have more skills than just their burst opener, and that dicking around in stealth looking for a "good" target, is usually a detriment to their team.

Care to elaborate? This is the first I've heard about this. Honestly, what most people tend to think we "need," is actually not at all close to being correct. For example, probably the most frequently requested "fix," is to give us a better TA generator (admittedly, I myself was guilty of this until I learned the spec better.). But in reality, we don't have the energy regen to sustain more Culls than we can already put out. Giving us a 10m range TA generator that replaces (or is an augment of) shiv, is a better option, though I personally actually LIKE that the class needs to melee to perform its burst (And you still would need to anyways, to get the best burst possible, since backstab is one of our most damaging burst skills.). I personally don't want to see the dynamics of the class changed! What I'd personally love to see, is an overhaul of the Flash Powder talent. Something along the lines of: "Your damage over time abilities have a [50/100]% chance of not breaking the effects of Flash Bang. Also reduces all targets' accuracy by [30/60]% for 8 seconds after Flash Bang ends." (20% accuracy debuff is pathetic. 60%, or maybe even 80%, sounds more reasonable to me.). Or, an alternative to the accuracy debuff, would be to reduce the cooldown of flash bang. Of course, this talent would then need to be moved up higher in the tree.

Hmm, perhaps I should clarify a bit further. A DPS class that is playing to win, is going to almost always get a higher DPS score than someone who isn't. Their job is to do as much DPS as possible, and that's exactly what they should be focusing on. The exception being someone stuck on node guard duty. Again, in my experience, typically the people that try to devalue DPS scores, are the ones who get low scores but try to make it out as if their playstyle is somehow better for their team than a DPS player who is actually doing his job (I especially see this often with stealth classes, who waste entirely too much time in stealth trying to find a target, get a bad DPS score, but try to act like their contribution was more valuable than other DPSers who scored a lot higher than them.).