Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[HuaRya]

Solo ques won't work with out a matchmaking system and/or cross server ques. It will hurt que times for both premade and solo que WZs. Solo won't change the fact that some people are bad and some are good. So the good will still stomp the bad. In reality how many balanced pug vs pug matches have you been in? Plus people will end up timing ques to get into the same WZs.

 

A solo check box would be the quick fix and I agree with the others that Bioware probably doesn't have the resources to enhance the intelligence of the matching system. Solo queues would be the rage. That is where the chaotic fun we all enjoyed in games like quake will be. The grouped players will have to face teams that have other healers, stealth, tanks. Solo queues will be for the majority who prefer to dps.

 

I still enjoy the "we are plremades and we want to play you solo pugs because you are so bad" argument. It really shows what kind of players you are.

[Doomsdaycomes]

A solo check box would be the quick fix and I agree with the others that Bioware probably doesn't have the resources to enhance the intelligence of the matching system. Solo queues would be the rage. That is where the chaotic fun we all enjoyed in games like quake will be. The grouped players will have to face teams that have other healers, stealth, tanks. Solo queues will be for the majority who prefer to dps.

 

I still enjoy the "we are plremades and we want to play you solo pugs because you are so bad" argument. It really shows what kind of players you are.

 

Removing the solo queue button would also be a quick fix, eh? Please stop trying to push Simplest Fix = Best.

 

The rest of that post is just baiting. I'll respond when you understand the arguments that have been repeated over and over in this thread.

[DariusCalera]

Solo queues would be the rage. That is where the chaotic fun we all enjoyed in games like quake will be. The grouped players will have to face teams that have other healers, stealth, tanks. Solo queues will be for the majority who prefer to dps.

 

They would cause rage, nerd rage that is because no one could really be counted on to guard anything because, being deeps, their job is to deeps and guarding is boring. At least, that is the mentality that seems to be growing in all the new up and coming PvPers.

 

If your team is in chaos then that means the other team probably isn't and is stomping you.

 

It also seems like what you really want is just a DPS Team Death Match where no one does anything but hit stuff.

[cashogy_reborn]

3. Fix all bugs from implementing the match making system.

 

sadly thats probably accurate. with bioware's track record it would probably be broken for quite some time

 

Whoooaa. Hang on there, cowboy. Let's roll back the clock a little. The root of this problem is not the bads.

Competitive players have a queue. Ranked. Regular was for everyone else. But once the pecking order was established in ranked, the competitive players quit. They quit because they lost. The good, competitive, skilled, game pad playing, voice chat enabled, premades quit. One more time. The better players on the server, QUIT, because they didn't have match making. So now the ranked queue never pops.

 

So let's not define this as a "bads" problem. It is inaccurate to suggest we wouldn't have this problem if it wasn't for the vets missing fingers who are playing this game, or the older folks with arthritis, or the younger kids with parental controls, or the people playing casually just because their significant other does, or those with disabilities who find this game helps relieve the boredom and lonliness, and the rest of the "bads".

 

First, the skilled players, the ones that improve, the ones everyone think this game is for, quit. And they quit because they didn't like losing, and there was no match making. So let's not shift this all onto those with lessor skill or who simply want to play in a warzone devoid of premades. The need for match making existed before so called "bads" started asking for it. And all the skilled players quit for lack of it.

 

What happened next was that all these good players, all these premades, all these skilled players, all these quitters, moved down into the regular queue and now the system is unbalanced because ranked was for competitive, and regular was for casual, but the ranked people quit because THEY couldn't get match making and now regular has become the playground for the competitive skilled quitters. And now other players want match making too.

 

(PS to Cashogy, this is not to you personally, I am grandstanding to make a point.. forgive the use of your quote.)

 

this is sadly true. many, many groups quit RWZ bc they lost a few times to some really really good teams, and then didnt want to work to improve to get to that same level.

 

i think matchmaking is absolutely needed in RWZ; why it was implemented without even a basic one speaks volumes about how "ready" RWZ actually was for release. making RWZ more attractive and available to more players will definitely have a significant positive impact on the quality of reg WZs.

 

that said, this problem has always existed in regs, even before RWZ came out. the typical casual/low skill player doesnt want to play against hardcore/high skill players.

 

im all in favor of more competitive matches at all levels. who knows what bioware will be bringing with 2.4 tho, maybe they will have some real matchmaking for rankeds

[Doomsdaycomes]

So just had a thought as I was lying down to bed.

 

What if...

 

When the queue popped up, it told you some basic information about the match? PuG vs PuG, Mixed, Group vs Group, and a percentage match rate. If someone wants to duck out then, they can always hit (decline).

 

Example: Wednesday night, just got a fresh weekly, feeling pretty chill. Queue pops: Mixed match, 72% skill match. Nah... I'm not in the mood for it and I got a whole week on my weekly.. Hit decline.

 

Re-queue, four minutes later another pop: Full PuG, 86% skill match. Alright, sounds like a good time. Hit Accept.

[Comfterbilly]

i think matchmaking is absolutely needed in RWZ; why it was implemented without even a basic one speaks volumes about how "ready" RWZ actually was for release. making RWZ more attractive and available to more players will definitely have a significant positive impact on the quality of reg WZs.

 

This same solo-toggle queue argument was going on prior to and leading up to the calls for and eventual release of rated. The thing that pisses solo players off so much is that premaders were answering our demand for solo queue toggle at the time with the B.S. answer that "as soon as rateds come out that will solve the whole problem". Then they go there, lose their win rate and have to compete and lose to better teams, and here they are worse than before.

 

That's why any fix without a solo-toggle is tantamount to asking us to find a better place to spend our money.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[TridusSWTOR]

And ignored, no point dealing with someone who doesn't understand logic and simply insults people rather than making a point.

 

Like you were doing from the start.

 

Pot meet kettle.

[TridusSWTOR]

Would matchmaking not do the same thing, without many of the cons inherent in splitting the population?

 

Matchmaking will:

 

Match people based on some criteria. So extremely good players will face extremely good players, lower skill vs lower skill. Since it's adaptive, players winning a lot will continue to be placed against tougher opponents, while those losing a lot will be bumped down into easier skill levels.

 

If the population is high enough, queue times won't matter. If it's too low, queue limiters will reduce queue times at the expense of some matching (not all unless the population is that low). In the case of a split/solo-option, low population causes indefinite longer queues (and if too low, split queue/solo-option causes the highest amount of players simply not playing at all).

 

Matchmaking also targets the root problem. We can agree that not all players are equal (whether solo or grouped), and the unhealthy situation arises when over and over, Higher Competition (for whatever reason) is placed against Lower Competition. Matchmaking is designed to target that specifically, while solo-queues does nothing (except lower probability of) to stop Hardcore PuG's vs Casuals PuG's, or Hardcore Premade vs Casual groups.

 

Funny how that works, because if you have 3 good premades and 4 solo pugs. The pugs get cycled through a stomp fest. Matchmaking doesn't really help them, then again you don't care.

 

Oh but separate queue's will not have a match at all? That's funny since many pro-premaders said their queue times are low. Which mean the PVP population is fine, also server transfers help that even more. So I guess this whole "No matches at all" myth has been debunked.

 

That was easy. Moving on...

 

You still have yet to prove how matchmaking will prevent lopsided matches. You have 12 solo pugs and 1 premade, all average or lower skilled and then you have 3 premades and 4 solo pugs all good players. The group with the premades will win by default due to group comp and voice comms. Oh but hey...it's all about balanced matches with you.

 

I guess matchmaking would help balance things out...for one group at least.

 

You have been debunked. It's fun destroying everything you post.

[TridusSWTOR]

A solo check box would be the quick fix and I agree with the others that Bioware probably doesn't have the resources to enhance the intelligence of the matching system. Solo queues would be the rage. That is where the chaotic fun we all enjoyed in games like quake will be. The grouped players will have to face teams that have other healers, stealth, tanks. Solo queues will be for the majority who prefer to dps.

 

I still enjoy the "we are plremades and we want to play you solo pugs because you are so bad" argument. It really shows what kind of players you are.

 

I would be on board with a solo queue check box. Sounds like a very good way to go about things. It's probably better if people are concerned about splitting up the population.

 

Matchmaking sounds nice, but it's just cycling the weakest link in the chain. It'll be back to square one again, that's why you see people supporting it.

[Azerraak]

Given that the pvp population is a small fraction of the playerbase, it's in Bioware's best interest to entice new players to get into pvping. (Especially since an upcoming update is supposed to be focused on pvp).

 

New players and pve'ers who are interested in pvp will show up, get farmed by premades for a couple of days, then return to pve Ops/Flashpoints/Dailies/RPing/Whatever and never touch pvp again. They'll also let their friends know how bad it sucked so they won't bother with it either.

 

The simple "Opt out" checkbox for soloers would at least give them a chance to fight other soloers without getting farmed by a premade TEAM. It's in the game's best interest to increase pvp's popularity because right now people ARE quitting daily and going to other games. If you need proof of this, go hang out on the fleet for an hour and see what average/new players think of pvp.

[DarthRaika]

People just don't realize how wrong the current system is.

 

Assuming the same lvl of skill a team with better composition will win more often then not.

 

Assuming the same level of skill a team with better gear will win more often than not. It is also important to note that while the current gear gap is fine it is still a rather large gap. If you don't believe me look into it pls.

 

Assuming the same level of a skill a team that plays together more often will win more often than not.

 

Assuming the same level of skill a team with voice chat will win more often then not.

 

Now when you take these points into consideration and realize that premades can choose to have the advantage in all of the categories above then you should realize that a team using the advantages above would win more often then not EVEN IF THEY WERE LESS SKILLED.

 

Now, how less skilled they could be is up for debate. Maybe they could win more often then not if they were only 10% as skilled but maybe they would need to be 95% as skilled to win more often then not. This is up for debate but the fact that they could be at least somewhat less skilled should not be debated.

 

Playing from release I see this very often and it is just annoying. Players that I know are horrible when they are pugging and pressured think they are great because they only pug <5% of the time.

 

This is why you see so many premades. They have learned that they can be less skilled and still win.

 

Matchmaking and/or split q's is needed to have any real level of competition in regs.

[Comfterbilly]

People just don't realize how wrong the current system is.

 

Assuming the same lvl of skill a team with better composition will win more often then not.

 

Assuming the same level of skill a team with better gear will win more often than not. It is also important to note that while the current gear gap is fine it is still a rather large gap. If you don't believe me look into it pls.

 

Assuming the same level of a skill a team that plays together more often will win more often than not.

 

Assuming the same level of skill a team with voice chat will win more often then not.

 

Now when you take these points into consideration and realize that premades can choose to have the advantage in all of the categories above then you should realize that a team using the advantages above would win more often then not EVEN IF THEY WERE LESS SKILLED.

 

Quoted for truth ^ . That's pretty much the gospel.

[Comfterbilly]

Hey guys,

 

Just wanted to let you know I am passing this on to the combat folks to look into. I will let you know once I have an update. Thanks for bringing this to our attention!

 

-eric

 

Hey Eric,

 

How come they can get this response from you devs on the PVP Bolster thread in 8 pages and we can't get a dev response in four hundred and two?

 

Seems like they're about 394 pages late.

 

We've proven our demand, it's about time WE get to hear back about what the combat folks have to say. The kids upset about their easy-mode armor gap can wait.

[Sziroten]

People just don't realize how wrong the current system is.

 

Assuming the same lvl of skill a team with better composition will win more often then not.

 

Assuming the same level of skill a team with better gear will win more often than not. It is also important to note that while the current gear gap is fine it is still a rather large gap. If you don't believe me look into it pls.

 

Assuming the same level of a skill a team that plays together more often will win more often than not.

 

Assuming the same level of skill a team with voice chat will win more often then not.

 

Now when you take these points into consideration and realize that premades can choose to have the advantage in all of the categories above then you should realize that a team using the advantages above would win more often then not EVEN IF THEY WERE LESS SKILLED.

 

Now, how less skilled they could be is up for debate. Maybe they could win more often then not if they were only 10% as skilled but maybe they would need to be 95% as skilled to win more often then not. This is up for debate but the fact that they could be at least somewhat less skilled should not be debated.

 

Playing from release I see this very often and it is just annoying. Players that I know are horrible when they are pugging and pressured think they are great because they only pug <5% of the time.

 

This is why you see so many premades. They have learned that they can be less skilled and still win.

 

Matchmaking and/or split q's is needed to have any real level of competition in regs.

 

Marked is the only advantage a 4-man premade has over random composition.

 

What does prevent random pvp player from aquiring the best pvp gear (which we do)

 

What does prevent random pvp player from playing together rather than follow private "objectives"?

 

What does prevent random pvp player from joining a common Voice Chat for the time of the warzone?

 

The reason why this probably didn't get tons of official replies is because everyone has the possibility to get better, get the best gear and group together if they want to. People playing solo chose to do so and facing the downside is natural and entirely logic. It's a similar ridiculous request as wanting to solo current flashpoints/ operations because you chose not to group with other players.

 

Splitting queues won't solve any problem:

 

1. you can queue solo and end up in the same warzone

2. better skilled and objectively oriented player will still dominate less skilled/ non objective oriented player

3. if you don't belive and you play since release, take off your googles and realize that you have dominating matches in low brackets with a full random group and you are getting roflstomped with a vs. a full random group.

 

The only point which sounds reasonable is the one about matchmaking. Not allowing 3 or 4 healer in one group would certainly help though it is not the same as for queuing up for flashpoints because you can queue up as a tank but you don't have to fulfill the role of a tank in a flashpoint. This means that the options to queue as have to be linked to your skill trees which could be too difficult to implement.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Sziroten

[DarthRaika]

I personally don't get stomped by a premade very often. I don't have a lot of time to play and so to complete my weeklies I quit a lot of sure losses at the start. I do enjoy playing good premades at times though because I can have a lot of fun since in these kind of matches it is fine to just deathmatch as your team doesn't have a chance at winning and many have already given up.

 

I want matchmaking for different reasons. I want a healthy and growing pvp population and I want to form a good premade at times.

 

I can't form a good premade because I find pugstomping to be boring as hell and I would rather do any of my other hobbies than to pugstomp.

 

As far as the healthy population goes what is needed for this is to promote new players having fun in pvp. In this game's current state this is unlikely.

 

One solution I would love is to make a solo only huttball q. This q would try to actually randomize the teams and would have pubs/imps on the same team. Huttball is a lot of fun and most people I know who hate it have told me it is because of how bad premades have stomped them in huttball. This would stop that. It would also allow me to play huttball whenever I am on and I would love that.

[Sziroten]

I personally don't get stomped by a premade very often. I don't have a lot of time to play and so to complete my weeklies I quit a lot of sure losses at the start. I do enjoy playing good premades at times though because I can have a lot of fun since in these kind of matches it is fine to just deathmatch as your team doesn't have a chance at winning and many have already given up.

 

I want matchmaking for different reasons. I want a healthy and growing pvp population and I want to form a good premade at times.

 

I can't form a good premade because I find pugstomping to be boring as hell and I would rather do any of my other hobbies than to pugstomp.

 

As far as the healthy population goes what is needed for this is to promote new players having fun in pvp. In this game's current state this is unlikely.

 

One solution I would love is to make a solo only huttball q. This q would try to actually randomize the teams and would have pubs/imps on the same team. Huttball is a lot of fun and most people I know who hate it have told me it is because of how bad premades have stomped them in huttball. This would stop that. It would also allow me to play huttball whenever I am on and I would love that.

 

People consider Huttball as any other map which is wrong. The target is to score, not to farm medals for damage or healing. You can win 6:0 and your team has no one with over 100k damage/ healing while the other team has 500k damage/ healing.

[TheCourier-]

Solo only queues would be awful. I despise solo-queuing for warzones instead of playing with my premade. I can count on my premade, and they are people that I picked. If you don't like solo-queuing, and don't have any friends, then join a guild.

[maverickmatt]

I feel like I need to constantly state the difference between "casual groups" and "competitive premades".

Casual Group: A group of casual players. This includes your PvE player who sometimes plays PvP, and the player who has harsher time restraints than some, among others.

Competitive Premade: A group of competitive players. This includes the players who should and do queue for Ranked.

 

Marked is the only advantage a 4-man premade has over random composition.

 

What does prevent random pvp player from aquiring the best pvp gear (which we do)

 

Since you asked.....

It is easier to grind the comms for gear when you win, and since winning is significantly more difficult when facing a premade I'd say that getting rolled quite often would stop the casual player from aquiring the best gear at a rate anywhere near that of the aforementioned premade.

 

 

What does prevent random pvp player from playing together rather than follow private "objectives"?

 

This makes no sense in the context of the discussion. It sounds like you meant to say, "What prevents the casual player from grouping?"

 

The answers are too many to list, but just for giggles let's say it is solely preference.

Given that it IS preference, that would make it akin to having a preference for Coke as opposed to.. let's say Gatorade. There is nothing wrong with it, and the individual who prefers Coke should not be excluded or told that it would be unfair if a restaurant were to serve both. In fact, any smart business WOULD serve both (if not Coke, a comparable replacement).

 

 

What does prevent random pvp player from joining a common Voice Chat for the time of the warzone?

 

I hope I don't need to describe how many ways it is impossible from a logistics standpoint to get 8 random players in a voice channel in 90 seconds (the time before the match starts).

 

 

The reason why this probably didn't get tons of official replies is because everyone has the possibility to get better, get the best gear and group together if they want to. People playing solo chose to do so and facing the downside is natural and entirely logic. It's a similar ridiculous request as wanting to solo current flashpoints/ operations because you chose not to group with other players.

 

It's not the same at all. The flashpoints were designed to be run in a group. They consist of what amounts to a few animated sandbags. Flashpoints are not dynamic, and the strategy does not change.

You miss the point of this thread entirely.

 

There should be no downside to solo-queueing, and we should not make a downside for group queueing. Likewise, there should be no advantage for either type of queue.

 

 

Splitting queues won't solve any problem:

1. you can queue solo and end up in the same warzone

2. better skilled and objectively oriented player will still dominate less skilled/ non objective oriented player

3. if you don't belive and you play since release, take off your googles and realize that you have dominating matches in low brackets with a full random group and you are getting roflstomped with a vs. a full random group.

 

I was attempting to respond to your post in a serious manner, and have a reasonable discussion. Then I see where you reference low brackets.

This point should be abundantly clear to anyone who plays the game, has heard of the game, or has thought about a world in which a SW MMO exists: Low Brackets do not matter. Nothing is equal or balanced in low brackets. It's full of FOTM classes, first time players, and occasionally an alt that someone rolled because their guild needed one of whatever they rolled. In the mid brackets, players with less than half of their skills are grouped with players boasting a full arsenal, not to mention nearly all of their skill points.

 

I say again: Low and Mid brackets do not matter, and they don't belong in this discussion. Nothing that applies there carries over to our problem here.

 

 

The only point which sounds reasonable is the one about matchmaking. Not allowing 3 or 4 healer in one group would certainly help though it is not the same as for queuing up for flashpoints because you can queue up as a tank but you don't have to fulfill the role of a tank in a flashpoint. This means that the options to queue as have to be linked to your skill trees which could be too difficult to implement.

 

 

Your entire post is the same old story, except you somewhat disguise your contempt for PuGs.

 

The ideal game (of any kind.. sports, gambling, etc) is one where all parties have a similar chance to win (or lose).

 

At the very least, you have to present the illusion that all parties have the same chance.

 

If Vegas failed at providing said illusion, they would be out of business.

Edited June 27, 2013 by maverickmatt

[Catharian]

Solo only queues would be awful. I despise solo-queuing for warzones instead of playing with my premade. I can count on my premade, and they are people that I picked. If you don't like solo-queuing, and don't have any friends, then join a guild.

 

wow...just wow. You still get to play with your hand picked premade dear. Us lowly puggers just want to play how we want to as well.

 

BTW, I played in 4 man premades and 8 man rateds too. S*it got very old after 6 months of stomping pugs. Maybe you just haven't gotten there yet.

[MotorCityMan]

Solo only queues would be awful. I despise solo-queuing for warzones instead of playing with my premade. I can count on my premade, and they are people that I picked. If you don't like solo-queuing, and don't have any friends, then join a guild.

 

Glad you found a situation you are comfortable with. That's what it's all about, no?

 

A lot of people are most comfortable in a pug only warzone. Reasons why don't matter. Maybe it is just simply because of the same thing that attracts people to pvp in the first place, the randomness, the unexpectedness of it all.

It's sad though, that that randomness is largely gone, at least on my server. Before the match even starts. It's gotten so it's not even worth it to queue. And if you like pvp, and the game can't offer it, well....

[Atramar]

People consider Huttball as any other map which is wrong. The target is to score, not to farm medals for damage or healing. You can win 6:0 and your team has no one with over 100k damage/ healing while the other team has 500k damage/ healing.

 

seen that so many times.. top damage our team - 32k

top healer, 50k

total kills of our team came from pulls into fire

result - win in 3 minutes 6:0

 

total pug.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Atramar

[akabane_k]

Glad you found a situation you are comfortable with. That's what it's all about, no?

 

A lot of people are most comfortable in a pug only warzone. Reasons why don't matter. Maybe it is just simply because of the same thing that attracts people to pvp in the first place, the randomness, the unexpectedness of it all.

It's sad though, that that randomness is largely gone, at least on my server. Before the match even starts. It's gotten so it's not even worth it to queue. And if you like pvp, and the game can't offer it, well....

 

The thing is randomness is mostly caused people who don't know how to pvp. Most classes have an optimal rotation/style of play/cd timing. Which in turn makes it so that if you are playing randomly, you are playing sub optimally. Even in terms of team strategy, there are a few strategies that work well and the rest is up to execution. For example, Novare Coast, its almost always send 1-2 to your node and the rest mid. Trying to take their node only works if their defenders are sloppy, as the travel distance is too great a disadvantage.

 

What I am trying to say is being random relies on the opponent not being able to respond, and a competent opponent will be able to counter anything you do, so it is best to play optimally. So the reason randomness is gone is that more people know what they are doing, and thats a good thing right?

[Ravenpsix]

Considering premades, they already have pretty abvious advantage the solo queuers don't have. And there is no going around it, no matter how much you, pramade teammates say "noobs suck" or such (which is not an argument by the way). It's TEAMWORK!!! No, really, did you notised?! Yes?! Then stop raving nonsense. Edited June 27, 2013 by Ravenpsix
inapropriate language

[SajPl]

Considering premades, they already have pretty abvious advantage the solo queuers don't have. And there is no going around it, no matter how much you, pramade teammates say "noobs suck" or such (which is not an argument by the way). It's TEAMWORK!!! No, really, did you notised?! Yes?! Then stop raving nonsense.

 

I agree, nerf teamwork its OP. Make solo warzones for puggers, where they will be in said warzone alone, no teammates no enemies and no reason to qq.

[EilahFinn]

I agree, nerf teamwork its OP. Make solo warzones for puggers, where they will be in said warzone alone, no teammates no enemies and no reason to qq.

 

Maybe it´s just nothing more than having the choice between two levels of teamwork;

some kind of "chaos league" (solo) and "premier league" (groups)

Edited June 27, 2013 by EilahFinn