Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Ravenpsix]

Maybe it´s just nothing more than having the choice between two levels of teamwork;

some kind of "chaos league" (solo) and "premier league" (groups)

 

It may be random, but it's not quate a bad idea. "Chaos Leage" - i like how it sounds and describes the thing well ^_^. "Premier leage" also not so bad of a name )

[Timadan]

I solo que 100 percent of the time now. Most of the people I started the game with have moved on, I moved on and came back for a bit. In my observations I don't necessarily see that the game needs separate ques for groups and soloers. I see that the system needs to be tweaked. The only real butt whipping wz's I experience is when I land on a team that is 8 solo pug players vs to premades of 4. When it's a group of 4 and 4 solo players as long as the group plays tight and the soloers actually play objectively then it's generally a fairly tight match. The real horror comes when the opposing team actually landed 2 groups of 4 from the same guild in reg wz, this should never ever happen. Since it does happen it only servers to support that there is flaws in the match making system.

 

This fix imo would be a tweak to the matchmaking system that did not allow for 2 groups vs 8 randoms. It should always search to make matches that are fairly balanced as to the groups. Ie 2 groups of 3 and 2 randoms vs 1 group of 4, 1 group of 2 and 2 randoms.

 

It's up to the players to bring their skill level up to par, not the system to cater to a players skill level.

[Sziroten]

I feel like I need to constantly state the difference between "casual groups" and "competitive premades".

Casual Group: A group of casual players. This includes your PvE player who sometimes plays PvP, and the player who has harsher time restraints than some, among others.

Competitive Premade: A group of competitive players. This includes the players who should and do queue for Ranked.

 

This thread is about "premades" = a group of up to 4 player made prior to entering a warzone and this is the general understanding of it. The issue is that people complaining about premades automatically include bad player in a premade as well as frequent rated player which can come down to a pure "skilled vs. non-skilled" player where as equipment doesn't matter.

 

Since you asked.....

It is easier to grind the comms for gear when you win, and since winning is significantly more difficult when facing a premade I'd say that getting rolled quite often would stop the casual player from aquiring the best gear at a rate anywhere near that of the aforementioned premade.

 

That may sound true but the game is telling otherwise. People are playing warzones which is why you see random people playing random warzone again and again. The claim that people would stop doing warzones because of premades can't be true because of that and since you are getting coms for losing as well there is no excuse for not trying to get the best equipment possible.

 

This makes no sense in the context of the discussion. It sounds like you meant to say, "What prevents the casual player from grouping?"

 

No... it means: "What prevents player from calling incs, marking healer/ focus player and play "together" and for this is no prior grouping required. This is based on the fact that you can throw 16 random player, one team usually wins over the other because 8 people can play better together.

 

The answers are too many to list, but just for giggles let's say it is solely preference.

Given that it IS preference, that would make it akin to having a preference for Coke as opposed to.. let's say Gatorade. There is nothing wrong with it, and the individual who prefers Coke should not be excluded or told that it would be unfair if a restaurant were to serve both. In fact, any smart business WOULD serve both (if not Coke, a comparable replacement).

 

see above... it was not about grouping but playing together inside a warzone.

 

I hope I don't need to describe how many ways it is impossible from a logistics standpoint to get 8 random players in a voice channel in 90 seconds (the time before the match starts).

 

Start describing because it takes exactly 5 seconds to open a voicechat, another 10 to typ in a servername and join. As a lot of people are in a guild, they usually have a voice chat. Nothing impossible about it though someone has to take the initiative to do so and others have to take the initiative to follow up on it.

 

It's not the same at all. The flashpoints were designed to be run in a group. They consist of what amounts to a few animated sandbags. Flashpoints are not dynamic, and the strategy does not change.

You miss the point of this thread entirely.

 

Warzones were designed 8 vs. 8... pressing a button puts you together with 7 other players, playing against 8 other people. There is no difference at all except that you don't have to do anything and can leave without being called out for it or penalty (as you have for groupfinder).

 

There should be no downside to solo-queueing, and we should not make a downside for group queueing. Likewise, there should be no advantage for either type of queue.

 

There is a downside to solo queueing... friends which play together, guilds which play together... though since some thing it is in any way fair to put 4 casuals vs. 4 rated player just because they like to built in a group ... nothing more to say. Some restrictions are fine... too many restrictions do affect all kind of people and I don't think people asking for splitting solo and group player actually realize this.

 

I was attempting to respond to your post in a serious manner, and have a reasonable discussion. Then I see where you reference low brackets.

This point should be abundantly clear to anyone who plays the game, has heard of the game, or has thought about a world in which a SW MMO exists: Low Brackets do not matter. Nothing is equal or balanced in low brackets. It's full of FOTM classes, first time players, and occasionally an alt that someone rolled because their guild needed one of whatever they rolled. In the mid brackets, players with less than half of their skills are grouped with players boasting a full arsenal, not to mention nearly all of their skill points.

 

Premades do exist in any bracket.

 

I say again: Low and Mid brackets do not matter, and they don't belong in this discussion. Nothing that applies there carries over to our problem here.

 

see above so the "problem" does apply in any bracket though it takes away the "tremendous" gear advantage

 

Your entire post is the same old story, except you somewhat disguise your contempt for PuGs..

 

There is no 4 vs. 4... ask for this and hopefully 4 man rated teams will meet each other there. Asking for splitting solo from group queues is the wrong attempt.

 

The ideal game (of any kind.. sports, gambling, etc) is one where all parties have a similar chance to win (or lose).

 

At the very least, you have to present the illusion that all parties have the same chance.

 

If Vegas failed at providing said illusion, they would be out of business.

 

All player are being naked when entering a warzone and you have one class of each "type" and you still will be roflstomped because some player are just better than others and no gear grind, no restrictions and no discussion in a forum will change this very simple fact which seems to be so hard to comprehend.

[maverickmatt]

*snip*

All player are being naked when entering a warzone and you have one class of each "type" and you still will be roflstomped because some player are just better than others and no gear grind, no restrictions and no discussion in a forum will change this very simple fact which seems to be so hard to comprehend.

 

I'm trying to remain civil, but you are making it very difficult. If you had bothered to read the rest of the posts in this thread, you would have an understanding of the issue. As it stands, your interpretation of the problem is flat-out wrong.

 

The issue is and always has been that "competitive" groups, complete with all their competitive advantages, are lumped in with the "casual" player who has no desire to do anything more than have fun.

Casual players can accept that another player is better than they are. What they cannot accept, and what is at the heart of this thread, is another player/group that plays competitively is lumped in with the casual player. The levels of "skill" are different, and this sometimes creates a situation where the casual player feels as though he has no shot at victory. At that point, they stop playing. This is bad for the entire community, even your precious "competitive" premades.

 

Before you choose to believe that "Puggers get what's coming to them. They shouldn't queue solo if they don't want to get stomped", I would advise that you gain a deeper understanding of the situation. Perhaps when you do this, you may be able to contribute to the discussion, and hopefully contribute to the betterment of the game for all.

 

I spent the last 2 hours or so reading all the posts in this thread. I can comfortably say (and I've said it before) that most don't have an issue with the "casual" premade. The issue lies with the "competitive" premade. Unfortunately it's sometimes difficult to draw a distinction, and you get what we have here.

 

I do not believe that most premades are of the "competitive" type. In fact, I'd venture to say that there are maybe 6 or 7 groups that are "competitive" on Pot5 that queue regs, and mostly it seems they queue regs while they wait on a Ranked WZ to pop. Whatever the solution, it needs to be comprehensive. It can't be just matchmaking, and it can't be just a toggle. It needs to be smarter and more adaptable than that.

 

A mix of both, and maybe some form of stimulation for the Ranked tier could be the solution. If you give these "competitive" teams a place to be competitive, I assume it would alleviate a great deal of the frustrations that the solo-queuer experiences. I'd also like to see the removal of double-queueing Ranked and Regs. Often times you'll get half (if not all) of the rated team as your opponents while they wait. Force them to make the choice. It would serve as a deterrent from what we are currently seeing.

 

Understand that for any of this to work, all of it has to work. Removing double-queues won't work unless you stimulate Ranked, and stimulating Ranked won't work unless you give people a reason to do them. Matchmaking won't work by itself initially until everyone has an established range (hopefully it would be a dynamic rating), and you can't accurately assess a player's skill range unless you put them in a setting where all other things are equal, which is where the solo-only toggle comes in.

 

I'd like to see it sorted, because as-is there is definitely a very large issue.

 

If you would have glanced over the rest of the thread, you would have seen where I stand on the issue. Do not assume that I want to separate the population as a final solution.

Edited June 27, 2013 by maverickmatt

[Comfterbilly]

All player are being naked when entering a warzone and you have one class of each "type" and you still will be roflstomped because some player are just better than others and no gear grind, no restrictions and no discussion in a forum will change this very simple fact which seems to be so hard to comprehend.

 

How about four "skilled" Mercenaries vs. four "bads" with an operative, a taunting smash Jugg, a predation spam Mara and a Sniper for good measure.

 

Take away the voip the gear the practice there is nothing but "skill" and composition. Do the four "skilled " DPS mercs win with no heals, less range and less speed?

 

The above ^ is a literal definition of "skill" in this game.

[akabane_k]

How about four "skilled" Mercenaries vs. four "bads" with an operative, a taunting smash Jugg, a predation spam Mara and a Sniper for good measure.

 

Take away the voip the gear the practice there is nothing but "skill" and composition. Do the four "skilled " DPS mercs win with no heals, less range and less speed?

 

The above ^ is a literal definition of "skill" in this game.

 

a "skilled' merc would know how to heal and respec so that his team would be better. The mercs could easily kill the op through electronet, the mara won't do much damage if he is "spamming" predation(which is impossible, since it effectively has a 30-40 sec cd). After the op is killed, they could los the sniper and kill the other two. So yes, they win.

[Comfterbilly]

a "skilled' merc would know how to heal and respec so that his team would be better. The mercs could easily kill the op through electronet, the mara won't do much damage if he is "spamming" predation(which is impossible, since it effectively has a 30-40 sec cd). After the op is killed, they could los the sniper and kill the other two. So yes, they win.

 

Oh so it's the Legacy respec that makes him "skilled".

[akabane_k]

Oh so it's the Legacy respec that makes him "skilled".

 

he could have respecced before the match, and simply waited to see the team composition before assigning his points

[cashogy_reborn]

4 good mercs vs 4 bads of an ideal comp group? mercs win, hands down. even with no healer.

 

why? a bad tank is going to fail to get taunts out properly or stay in guard range.

a bad mara is gonna have problems with being kited (which a good merc can do quite well now actually)

a bad operative is gonna struggle under focus, and have 4 electronets means there is no escape for anyone in that group.

mercs also have very good AOE off-healing. 4 kolto missiles is like 8-15k healing for up to 4 players every 5s

 

if both teams were equally skilled, the better group comp will win. taunts + heals > no taunts + heals.

 

but what does that have to do with premades vs pugs?

[cymonguk]

http://bit.ly/13aAdtZ

[DariusCalera]

4 good mercs vs 4 bads of an ideal comp group? mercs win, hands down. even with no healer.

 

why? a bad tank is going to fail to get taunts out properly or stay in guard range.

a bad mara is gonna have problems with being kited (which a good merc can do quite well now actually)

a bad operative is gonna struggle under focus, and have 4 electronets means there is no escape for anyone in that group.

mercs also have very good AOE off-healing. 4 kolto missiles is like 8-15k healing for up to 4 players every 5s

 

if both teams were equally skilled, the better group comp will win. taunts + heals > no taunts + heals.

 

but what does that have to do with premades vs pugs?

 

The bads are also going to probably forget to interrupt the GR and FA's.

[cashogy_reborn]

http://bit.ly/13aAdtZ

 

awesome

[Doomsdaycomes]

he could have respecced before the match, and simply waited to see the team composition before assigning his points

 

There is no reason to argue with Comfter, he's not really here to debate/argue decent points. Any time he attempts to bring up some hypothetical 4 of this vs 4 of that (with frickin' laser beams attached to the top of their frickin' heads), just ask him:

 

"Earlier you said the more PuG's get stomped, the more they quit the game. The less PuG's in the regular queue, the longer its queue times get, and the more groups quit the game. The population suffers and Bioware loses a lot of subs.

 

Yet, your proposed solution is a solo-only queue option.

 

Following the same logic, PuG's getting stomped in the regular queue causes them to leave for the solo-queue. The less PuG's in the regular queue, the longer its queue times get, and the more groups quit the game. The population suffers and Bioware loses a lot of subs."

 

He may reply "Nuh uh! More players join the game all the time, they'll keep the regular population up."

 

Kindly explain to him that any addition or subtraction in in the second example (his solution) applies to the first as well, because the root problem (PuG's getting stomped in regular warzones leads to PuG's leaving (quit/for solo-only queue)) isn't addressed by the solution.

 

He will likely poof in a puff of logic, or add you to his ignore list.

 

Now as I'm likely to receive a post about bogging down conversation or something, etc...

 

Did anyone see my suggestion last night?

 

So just had a thought as I was lying down to bed.

 

What if...

 

When the queue popped up, it told you some basic information about the match? PuG vs PuG, Mixed, Group vs Group, and a percentage match rate. If someone wants to duck out then, they can always hit (decline).

 

Example: Wednesday night, just got a fresh weekly, feeling pretty chill. Queue pops: Mixed match, 72% skill match. Nah... I'm not in the mood for it and I got a whole week on my weekly.. Hit decline.

 

Re-queue, four minutes later another pop: Full PuG, 86% skill match. Alright, sounds like a good time. Hit Accept.

 

Ps. <.< Did someone really suggest 4 good dps mercs have no heals? Their off heals are fantastic, and considering they'd nuke one bad player after another, 2 of them taking a split second to toss an off heal on the enemies focus target (assuming Bad's can focus) wouldn't be an issue.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[maverickmatt]

There is no reason to argue with Comfter, he's not really here to debate/argue decent points. Any time he attempts to bring up some hypothetical 4 of this vs 4 of that (with frickin' laser beams attached to the top of their frickin' heads), just ask him:

 

"Earlier you said the more PuG's get stomped, the more they quit the game. The less PuG's in the regular queue, the longer its queue times get, and the more groups quit the game. The population suffers and Bioware loses a lot of subs.

 

Yet, your proposed solution is a solo-only queue option.

 

Following the same logic, PuG's getting stomped in the regular queue causes them to leave for the solo-queue. The less PuG's in the regular queue, the longer its queue times get, and the more groups quit the game. The population suffers and Bioware loses a lot of subs."

 

He may reply "Nuh uh! More players join the game all the time, they'll keep the regular population up."

 

Kindly explain to him that any addition or subtraction in in the second example (his solution) applies to the first as well, because the root problem (PuG's getting stomped in regular warzones leads to PuG's leaving (quit/for solo-only queue)) isn't addressed by the solution.

 

He will likely poof in a puff of logic, or add you to his ignore list.

 

Now as I'm likely to receive a post about bogging down conversation or something, etc...

 

Did anyone see my suggestion last night?

 

 

 

Ps. <.< Did someone really suggest 4 good dps mercs have no heals? Their off heals are fantastic, and considering they'd nuke one bad player after another, 2 of them taking a split second to toss an off heal on the enemies focus target (assuming Bad's can focus) wouldn't be an issue.

 

I did see your suggestion, and it's not a bad one.

 

On a related note, I like your posts... most of the time.

 

However, you do not serve your purpose well by taking jabs at a poster you very clearly have ignored. They put your well-thought posts in a murky area as it becomes more difficult to discern between your good ideas and your personal quarrels. Someone could easily become confused and think you're no longer objective and are taking the opposing side to facilitate further arguments between yourself and Comfter.

 

You can have my soapbox now.

 

Now, there is the obligatory "bogging down the discussion with junk" reply.

You're welcome.

Edited June 27, 2013 by maverickmatt

[MitchPB]

a "skilled' merc would know how to heal and respec so that his team would be better. The mercs could easily kill the op through electronet, the mara won't do much damage if he is "spamming" predation(which is impossible, since it effectively has a 30-40 sec cd). After the op is killed, they could los the sniper and kill the other two. So yes, they win.

 

1. Predation dosent have a cooldown Fury does. (Carnage can do double).

2. Merc heals really suck compared to OP's and Sorcs so no.

3. The sniper would have to be really really terrible to lose that fight.

4. Of course field respecing isn't skilled, its a tactical advantage.

[akabane_k]

1. Predation dosent have a cooldown Fury does. (Carnage can do double).

2. Merc heals really suck compared to OP's and Sorcs so no.

3. The sniper would have to be really really terrible to lose that fight.

4. Of course field respecing isn't skilled, its a tactical advantage.

 

1. thats why i said effectively,if you want a carnage mara without berserk, the only thing you can do is ravage, the roots are countered by HO

2. mercs heals are good, the problem is they are more vulnerable to interrupts if shield isnt up, and if you focus the healer, the merc dps can freecast, which will be more than the op healer can keep up with.

3. the assumption was the group with the superior composition was bad

[Arkerus]

Skill is getting 3 healers on your premade and cross healing the whole team.

[MotorCityMan]

Skill is getting 3 healers on your premade and cross healing the whole team.

 

 

And having a tank guard and sin/shadow for nodes. And let's not forget a couple of smashers. That's real skill there, as skilled as ranked.

Edited June 28, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[akabane_k]

And having a tank guard and sin/shadow for nodes. And let's not forget a couple of smashers. That's real skill there, as skilled as ranked.

 

So now its healers, tanks, and dps that ruin wz's. Good to know.

[Arkerus]

Another night on pot5. The same imp guilds premades are rolling the non rated WZs.

[MotorCityMan]

I remember an interview with an old Everquest dev, when asked what he had learned over the years. And he said it was "Players always follow the path of least resistance."

The easiest way to comms is to form a team that can win in regular warzones. Forget ranked. It isn't the player's fault they form teams and win. And it isn't the player's fault that those on the receiving end of those easy team wins are finding their path too steep. It's Bioware's.

 

This thread contains a lot of suggestions and ideas, and Bioware has not so much as even acknowledged it. Disappointing.

Edited June 28, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[Doomsdaycomes]

Now, there is the obligatory "bogging down the discussion with junk" reply.

You're welcome.

 

Thank you, much obliged.

 

As for my suggestion, I think the pre-queue warning could even do something like tell you the warzone you're about to zone into. I've seen a lot of complaints about "give me the choice of warzone" and while I don't think players should be able to cherry pick their warzones in pre-selection, I do think they should be warned before they zone in. I personally leave most Hypergate's before the game begins (in lowbie bracket). I leave as early as I zone in to make sure my team hopefully get's backfilled before the match. It's a personal preference, I hate how often people are terrible at Hypergate, and it's one of those that requires the -most- team coordination.

 

/End rant about Hypergate.

 

So the queue pop would/could look something like: This match is a Mixed-Group game, Novare Coast, with a rating match of 89%.

[MotorCityMan]

So now its healers, tanks, and dps that ruin wz's. Good to know.

 

Yup, balanced teams of em. Glad you caught on.

[arcleadtrauma]

So now its healers, tanks, and dps that ruin wz's. Good to know.

 

LOL I actually fell out of my chair laughing, good joke

[Jadescythe]

Thank you, much obliged.

 

As for my suggestion, I think the pre-queue warning could even do something like tell you the warzone you're about to zone into. I've seen a lot of complaints about "give me the choice of warzone" and while I don't think players should be able to cherry pick their warzones in pre-selection, I do think they should be warned before they zone in. I personally leave most Hypergate's before the game begins (in lowbie bracket). I leave as early as I zone in to make sure my team hopefully get's backfilled before the match. It's a personal preference, I hate how often people are terrible at Hypergate, and it's one of those that requires the -most- team coordination.

 

/End rant about Hypergate.

 

So the queue pop would/could look something like: This match is a Mixed-Group game, Novare Coast, with a rating match of 89%.

 

There are many things I like and don't like, but absolutely not any of this. I'd rather have a solo queue. Queue times for perceived "good" players will be ridiculous with everyone dodging. You're going to have teams queuing up with all sorcs and juggs and only taking huttballs. There are just too many ways to work the system if you give people the choice of accepting a warzone based on information.

 

Sure you can somewhat do this now by leaving the match if you don't like what you load into, but it takes significantly longer and wastes a lot more time. These are reasons enough for most people to stick it out.