Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[DarthRaika]

I would prefer a decent matchmaking system but bw may not be able to pull that off even if they want to. So, with server transfers available why can't we just go ahead and do a split q. What would make this work even better is if we let imps and pubs be on the same team. Split q would have been horrible but with server transfers it should be doable.

 

Also, I think a split q system where pubs and imps could be on the same team (this would make it much harder to sync q game the system) would bring in a lot of new blood and many of these noobs would become decent players (low skill softcap we all know that). So these players would then make premades and support the premaders (me if we had split q's).

[cymonguk]

There are many things I like and don't like, but absolutely not any of this. I'd rather have a solo queue. Queue times for perceived "good" players will be ridiculous with everyone dodging. You're going to have teams queuing up with all sorcs and juggs and only taking huttballs. There are just too many ways to work the system if you give people the choice of accepting a warzone based on information.

 

Sure you can somewhat do this now by leaving the match if you don't like what you load into, but it takes significantly longer and wastes a lot more time. These are reasons enough for most people to stick it out.

 

You could do something like they do in many games and allow voting for a particular zone from a choice of two, you then allow people to hop out when they see what was chosen (give them 10 seconds to hop out)

[AlrikFassbauer]

What always baffles me is that people constantly say :

 

"We need a new matchmaking system" -

 

- but no-one does a Petition or anything for that.

 

Is the current state so good that making a Petition, a Suggestion or something similar just isn't worth the effort ?

[Kovaos]

What always baffles me is that people constantly say :

 

"We need a new matchmaking system" -

 

- but no-one does a Petition or anything for that.

 

Is the current state so good that making a Petition, a Suggestion or something similar just isn't worth the effort ?

 

I believe there is some decisiveness on whether there should be a matchmaking system or solo queue.

[Doomsdaycomes]

There are many things I like and don't like, but absolutely not any of this. I'd rather have a solo queue. Queue times for perceived "good" players will be ridiculous with everyone dodging. You're going to have teams queuing up with all sorcs and juggs and only taking huttballs. There are just too many ways to work the system if you give people the choice of accepting a warzone based on information.

 

Sure you can somewhat do this now by leaving the match if you don't like what you load into, but it takes significantly longer and wastes a lot more time. These are reasons enough for most people to stick it out.

 

Fair points. I had assumed people declining warzones and then having to requeue/wait would be enough of a disincentive (because the cost is to them, rather than the no-cost of a solo-only checkbox). If I refine my suggestion I'll repost it with better terms.

 

Was the whole complaint about informing people which warzone, or did you object to Queue type and skill match percentage be shown as well?

[Doomsdaycomes]

I would prefer a decent matchmaking system but bw may not be able to pull that off even if they want to. So, with server transfers available why can't we just go ahead and do a split q. What would make this work even better is if we let imps and pubs be on the same team. Split q would have been horrible but with server transfers it should be doable.

 

The issue with the split queue is both the logistics of it and because it doesn't target the root problem (Casuals vs. Invested). Solo-players fill the spots in incomplete groups, and backfill for d/c's (and possibly quitters). Without them, groups would need to be either 2 or 4, and groups of 2 would suffer longer queue's waiting for another duo to be available. If groups of 3 are possible, a team would have to be two 3's and one 2, or be gimped 1 player (4+3 or 2+2+3). Backfilling would be a nightmare, requiring at least 2 dc/quitters and a duo to be in the queue.

 

The root problem is also Casual vs Invested (I use this term to avoid the usual knee jerk reactions when the word skill is introduced into the argument). There are both casual and invested groups, as well as casual and invested solo-queue'rs. Splitting the queue upon queue-type does nothing to prevent Invested groups from stomping casuals, or Invested PuG's from stomping casual PuG's. The problem continues to happen, and it won't be long before complaints to split the queues (by gear level, valor rank, play time, number of skittles consumed...) again, or an increase in nerf posts of whatever casuals find cheap and invested find as a tool.

 

I'd also like to note we really can't guess as to how difficult or simple the solution will be for Bioware to implement. Free recruit gear seemed pretty damn simple, look where we are now.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[DarthRaika]

Well a split q should come with 20-30% higher comms for the premade q. It should also allow solo q's to check a box to fill into the premade q when needed.

 

I don't really understand your class balance concerns. Class balance is far more noticeable when you can stack certain classes and they work together but if they are stacked and doing their own thing (solo q) then it won't really matter imo. Also, the game is more balanced then it has ever been imo. I've been playing my horribly geared (bm lol) 52 arsenal merc lately and he just destroys now. I like him almost as much as my sniper now.

 

I even feel all 8 of my classes are at least somewhat OP right now. That is the best balance I have seen in an mmo.

 

The only real issue (and what makes ranked currently boring imo) is cross healing with taunts/guards. Still it isn't a major issue as I believe it is fine just not really my tastes. I know there are many who currently enjoy it.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Well a split q should come with 20-30% higher comms for the premade q. It should also allow solo q's to check a box to fill into the premade q when needed.

 

I don't really understand your class balance concerns. Class balance is far more noticeable when...

 

The first thing you mentioned is acceptable in keeping more Solo-players in the regular queue. It's also the one suggestion most Solo-only option proponents also have an instant "That's not fair!" reaction to. I'll see what others say.

 

 

I didn't mean class balance specifically (I'm not sure I even mentioned it). I mean any and all tools/advantages in the game are just as likely to become the next issue "ruining PvP" for casuals if there queue's are split, because split queue's/opt out options don't address the primary issue: Casuals vs. Non-Casuals.

 

Just as an example: I run with cybertech grenades all the time, even in lowbie. About a week ago, me and a friend ended up in Hypergate. Second round, we both head for the enemy pylon to take it, and arrive to find it "unguarded." Naturally, this means a stealth class is probably sitting and giggling, waiting for one of us to try for the node. They promptly ended up smashed under one of my seismic grenades, and dispatched by the two of us a few seconds later.

 

I can't say how skill or not the player was (except for maybe standing in the obvious spot), but I'm going to guess he was a casual player. It never even occurred to him a lowbie would be packing cybertech grenades, as most casuals wouldn't bother. So the issue is, I came into the warzone with different expectations of my opponents than he did of me. Without some skill/win-rate match making, casuals in either queue are still going to be "stomped" by non-casuals. Non-Casuals who stock up on medpaks, grenades, adrenals, stims, min-maxed gear, (and yes, even possibly voice chat), etc...

 

How likely is a casual to respec based on class composition problem in a PuG? I'm going to say, probably unlikely, where as this is something I would do in a PuG. I rarely play maurader or sniper for this very reason, because I can legacy respec on any other AC to fill 2 roles.

 

Those are just a few example of why I feel we need a situation to target the casual vs. non-casual issue. Even in Premade vs. PuG, the root issue isn't one side Premading, it's one side having a non-casual attitude and one side having almost all casuals.

[cashogy_reborn]

What always baffles me is that people constantly say :

 

"We need a new matchmaking system" -

 

- but no-one does a Petition or anything for that.

 

Is the current state so good that making a Petition, a Suggestion or something similar just isn't worth the effort ?

 

its been done. just cuz you put "petition" or "suggestion" in the thread title doesnt suddenly mean the devs will do what you post.....

[DarthRaika]

I see your point doom in that casuals will still be stomped by non-casuals and I agree but it is a different kind of stomping. Getting destroyed by a better player is one thing but barely being able to leave your spawn point and your entire team getting destroyed is entirely different.

 

Now I also agree that what would be better is to separate these kind of players and that is something that would be worth asking for but in the short term BW could at least stop the pugstomping. In my experience a lot of casuals aren't nearly as competitive as us non-casuals are. They don't mind losing and they don't mind getting 1v1 stomped but they just don't enjoy getting in a lot of completely hopeless matches.

 

Its like there are still a lot of problems with our current justice system that need to be fixed but that doesn't mean that when it was created they should have just said F it it won't be perfect. We can fix the pugstomping now and then get a rating system. BTW a solo only q would be a great way to get that player rating data to put into a matchmaking system.

[Doomsdaycomes]

BTW a solo only q would be a great way to get that player rating data to put into a matchmaking system.

 

I'll remain by that matchmaking will have the most overall success and least overall negative side effects but...

 

Should others agree with you that the solo-only option needs to have a disincentive (a significant less comms, etc...) to encourage more solo-players to queue in the regular warzone queue, then it's a solution with some merit and I wouldn't voice much more complaint.

[DarthRaika]

Well I mean I would leave the solo only option at the current lvl of comms but add some to group q and ranked. This is both to give an incentive like you said but also it takes more time to put together teams than to just hit solo q.

[Comfterbilly]

Well I mean I would leave the solo only option at the current lvl of comms but add some to group q and ranked. This is both to give an incentive like you said but also it takes more time to put together teams than to just hit solo q.

 

Premades are the one who want solo company (not the other way around). They should be giving US comms.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Well I mean I would leave the solo only option at the current lvl of comms but add some to group q and ranked. This is both to give an incentive like you said but also it takes more time to put together teams than to just hit solo q.

 

That's an either/or situation really. Nerf the solo-only option's comms, buff the regular queue comms, either way. Though if you buff the regular, you'd need to buff the ranked as well. As it stands as long as you get 8 medals in ranked, a ranked loss is still greater than a regular win.

 

Edit: Remind Comfter it's the solo-only people who don't want to be as competitive as people who group/play against groups without complaint.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[DarthRaika]

Doom, I mentioned raising ranked comms as well in my case.

 

Comfert dude...I am trying to discuss this in a rational manner. If you read my posts you should see that I am supportive of a split q system now that we have server transfers. That doesn't mean I want to punish people that don't q solo, however.

 

A small increase in comms for people that do go to the trouble to make a group and fight other groups is only logical. Don't let your hatred blind you to this. If we can all get on the same page then we can have some slight hope that this will happen. As it is now this thread is mainly people just calling the other side names.

 

See from my viewpoint a split q system would be good for almost everyone. I could premade and fight other premades (fun). Then if I was short on time I could get in a solo q and still make the same comms I do now while being more likely to have an even match.

 

For casuals, they could have more even matches and less stompings. They could also improve here and maybe grow out of being casuals.

 

For non casuals, they could have more team v team matches and less easy boring matches. If they were busy they could solo q.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Doom, I mentioned raising ranked comms as well in my case.

 

Ah, so you did. My apologies.

[Comfterbilly]

Doom, I mentioned raising ranked comms as well in my case.

 

Comfert dude...I am trying to discuss this in a rational manner. If you read my posts you should see that I am supportive of a split q system now that we have server transfers. That doesn't mean I want to punish people that don't q solo, however.

 

A small increase in comms for people that do go to the trouble to make a group and fight other groups is only logical. Don't let your hatred blind you to this. If we can all get on the same page then we can have some slight hope that this will happen. As it is now this thread is mainly people just calling the other side names.

 

See from my viewpoint a split q system would be good for almost everyone. I could premade and fight other premades (fun). Then if I was short on time I could get in a solo q and still make the same comms I do now while being more likely to have an even match.

 

For casuals, they could have more even matches and less stompings. They could also improve here and maybe grow out of being casuals.

 

For non casuals, they could have more team v team matches and less easy boring matches. If they were busy they could solo q.

 

If it gets them out of solo-que I could care less if they give them unicorns. The queue is rife with target calling predation-ades tonight.

[Comfterbilly]

BW you suck until you get these double-queues out of our warzones. Total waste of whatever ought to be appealing about a double XP weekend, unless not expanding your player base is the goal.

[Pistols]

BW you suck until you get these double-queues out of our warzones. Total waste of whatever ought to be appealing about a double XP weekend, unless not expanding your player base is the goal.

 

I was in a premade today, it felt sooo good.

[akabane_k]

I was in a premade today, it felt sooo good.

 

hell, i wasn't in a premade and it felt good, random pve mobs put up more of a challenge than some of the people in lowbie pvp.

[Ajuntalee]

I see this ranked comms drama you have drifted to, And the underlying problem behind that thread becomes more and more obvious.

 

You guys don't care about PvP you care about comms, what spoils the pvp fun in this game is the solo players running after their daylies/weeklies and commendations.

 

They don't try to improve, they don't want to improve, so they sit here in the WZ and expect to win it without even trying but for some reason, they feel compelled to do something they shouldn't ... PVP,

 

So they can get some gear

 

What are they going ot do with that gear I really can't tell, it looks the same as PVE, it underperforms PVE gear in every aspect save openworld PVP, and WZs and in WZs the bonus you get from it is so slim it is not even worth wasting your time on partisan ( and further less conqueror) if you don't really do pvp all day long.

 

What they should do to solve PVP in this game is.

 

1 - Implement a "Player's Casual PvP Performance Index" or PCPPI,

That index would fluctate based solely on Win/Loss in Unranked battleground, depending on your team's PCPPIs and other teams PCPPIs, number of players and time of participation to the WZ. fast and easy math to compute for a server.

2 - Depending on Win or Loss and Who you were matched against you would be given commendation, more for defeating betetr ranked players obviously.

3 - The matchmaking system would take PCPPI into its priority considerations when creating a game to help matching goods with goods in high stakes commendation and valor matches and bads with bads in low stakes and valor blurbs.

4 - The PCPPI would suffer a weekly decay of 2% of its own value ensuring player not competing anymore are losing index

5 - The PCPPI would be displayed on player's PVP panel.

 

 

Also 4 should be the default group size before entering a Warzone, and not being in a group of 4 should not allow people to complete their dailies/weeklies and reduce comms earned by 10% ( for threes), 20% (for twos), 30% for solos.

 

There would be a group making system similar to the Flashpoint's group gathering tool to help people say hello to one another, before teaming as a four and enter warzones as such.

 

Leaving a batlteground before the end or not joining when prompted should be applied a debuff forbidding enlisting for Warzones for 45 minutes that could be lifted paying commendations according to your PCPPI. Something like, 15 for a lowrank, up to 50 for a highrank, the system would ensure occasionnal connection loss could be manageable for people really intrested in PVP, but counterproductive for people trying to avoid difficult matches or ragequit,.

 

I know it can be harsh for people having jaggy connections, but when you are disconnected from a Warzone, you are not the only one punished, the team you were in also is, and at some point YOU have to solve the problem or out out respect pay your dues to make amend for the trouble your connection causes to others.

 

Ranked warzones should be opened to teams of 4 to be matched with another team of 4 gainst an operation of 8 or 2 other teams of 4.

 

When the default size is going to be 4, we can add 4 vs 4 arenas, 12 vs 12 maps and even 16 vs 16 maps into the RWZ,URWZ map cycles.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Ajuntalee

[TonyDragonflame]

Ranked 4+4 vs 4+4 will be extremal fun I guess

[DarthRaika]

Ajuntalee if you read what was written then you will see that adding more comms was not for the solo q'rs it was to make the premaders happy. Now sure I would be one of the premaders if we had split q's but the comms discussion was not to help solo q'rs. It was to give incentive to group up.

 

Me personally I don't give a crap about gear and I have more fun doing very well with my crap gear than I would outgearing people. I have 8 chars over 50 and a few of them 55 already. I also have a fulltime job and am in a relationship. So i don't have a lot of time to play.

 

I don't even have datacrons on my characters. I likely won't go past partisan on any of them before the next gear cycle. So there are many premaders out there with far better stats than me and yet I still do better than most of them most of the time. It is fun that way. If they do better so what i'll do better next time.

 

In my experience it is the premaders that care about comms more than anyone. Many of them want as many advantages as possible (good composition premade for example). There is a reason a lot of premades have gear requirements. It isn't because gear doesn't matter.

 

This is all fine and I like the current gear system but my point is that you should get over yourself with accusing casuals of only caring about comms.

 

You seem to really hate solo q'rs. Maybe that stems from how bad you are when you pug and are pressured and you don't want to admit that to yourself. Or maybe you just need to grow up.

 

I have led pvp guilds before and I have been a casual before. I see it from both sides and from my point of view making it so that premades fight premades and pugs fight pugs is the best for everyone. I didn't have anyone in my pvp guild in RIFT that didn't want better premade matching. We all wanted to fight other premades and most of us found fighting pugs to be boring. By not wanting to fight other premades it seems to me that you are the one who wants easy wins.

 

From a pugger's standpoint I see many of them just want to have fun. Many of them actually care less about comms than premaders. This should be obvious from just understanding that they are casual and choose to play less. Losing a fight can still be fun but getting completely stomped is not. Matchmaking helps them as well.

Edited June 29, 2013 by DarthRaika

[Arkerus]

I see this ranked comms drama you have drifted to, And the underlying problem behind that thread becomes more and more obvious.

 

You guys don't care about PvP you care about comms, what spoils the pvp fun in this game is the solo players running after their daylies/weeklies and commendations.

 

They don't try to improve, they don't want to improve, so they sit here in the WZ and expect to win it without even trying but for some reason, they feel compelled to do something they shouldn't ... PVP,

 

So they can get some gear

 

What are they going ot do with that gear I really can't tell, it looks the same as PVE, it underperforms PVE gear in every aspect save openworld PVP, and WZs and in WZs the bonus you get from it is so slim it is not even worth wasting your time on partisan ( and further less conqueror) if you don't really do pvp all day long.

 

What they should do to solve PVP in this game is.

 

1 - Implement a "Player's Casual PvP Performance Index" or PCPPI,

That index would fluctate based solely on Win/Loss in Unranked battleground, depending on your team's PCPPIs and other teams PCPPIs, number of players and time of participation to the WZ. fast and easy math to compute for a server.

2 - Depending on Win or Loss and Who you were matched against you would be given commendation, more for defeating betetr ranked players obviously.

3 - The matchmaking system would take PCPPI into its priority considerations when creating a game to help matching goods with goods in high stakes commendation and valor matches and bads with bads in low stakes and valor blurbs.

4 - The PCPPI would suffer a weekly decay of 2% of its own value ensuring player not competing anymore are losing index

5 - The PCPPI would be displayed on player's PVP panel.

 

 

Also 4 should be the default group size before entering a Warzone, and not being in a group of 4 should not allow people to complete their dailies/weeklies and reduce comms earned by 10% ( for threes), 20% (for twos), 30% for solos.

 

There would be a group making system similar to the Flashpoint's group gathering tool to help people say hello to one another, before teaming as a four and enter warzones as such.

 

Leaving a batlteground before the end or not joining when prompted should be applied a debuff forbidding enlisting for Warzones for 45 minutes that could be lifted paying commendations according to your PCPPI. Something like, 15 for a lowrank, up to 50 for a highrank, the system would ensure occasionnal connection loss could be manageable for people really intrested in PVP, but counterproductive for people trying to avoid difficult matches or ragequit,.

 

I know it can be harsh for people having jaggy connections, but when you are disconnected from a Warzone, you are not the only one punished, the team you were in also is, and at some point YOU have to solve the problem or out out respect pay your dues to make amend for the trouble your connection causes to others.

 

Ranked warzones should be opened to teams of 4 to be matched with another team of 4 gainst an operation of 8 or 2 other teams of 4.

 

When the default size is going to be 4, we can add 4 vs 4 arenas, 12 vs 12 maps and even 16 vs 16 maps into the RWZ,URWZ map cycles.

 

What a ridiculous comment.

 

Solo players keep the queues alive. Period. People want to log on and play a fair match. There isn't one shred of evident that any one person can be labeled a bad player just because they aren't going to sit in fleet and spam for a group.

 

The truth of the matter is premades are rolling the PUG queues because a coordinated team is exponentially more effective that a group of 8 solo players, no matter the skill of the player.

 

PoT5 has become and imp playground for premade teams sitting in queue. Because of the mechanics of the system premades with 3 and 4 players often get grouped together while a team of reps is almost always solo players.

 

This is out of control, especially at night. Getting a weekly in sometimes take 2 weeks.

 

We need a balancing system when queuing or a solo only queue....end of story.

[Ajuntalee]

@DarthRaika

 

That is a very bitter post, you have to understand most premade players including myself and a fair bunch of other I know do solo queue a lot too. but the minute a friend logs in or the instant I get bored of doing things in my corner I ll group with anyone I know and I know plenty cause I run WZ 95% of the time I spend online.

 

no-one ever said , sorry no I don't want to group with you.

 

Point is you and me are the same we have a job, we have a wife, we can't spend 14 h a day online, and even if we could we probably wouldn't, but when we play we do our best, this is the whole point of doing pvp in such a game IMHO, doing your best as an individual and as a team, I have the feeling peope; who go pvp, solo or not, just to get comms don't really want to do their best, they want a bit of challenge but are not ready to step up if the slightest difficulty arise, and they feel compelled to do pvp because their is a carrot ( dailies and weeklies) and they are addicted to carrots.

 

And then they fail a having fun cause they are focused on frustration of being outmatched, and the frustration of the carrot becoming elusive.

@Arkerus

 

You are absolutely right, solo players keep the queues alive,

and that is the problem,

groups of players sharing a common experience and a common goal, mindfull of other's gameplay and fun, synergising and chatting over voice comm or ingame channels should be the ones keeping the queues alive.

 

Hence why I think there should be an incentive to help people say hello to each other and chat and share while doing PVP, there is very little diffrence between a guild base premade and a premade of 4 peope who only barely knew each other 2 hours ago and are now getting to know each others all four on voice comms and trying to work as one.

 

I'dlike the game design to help/push people to socialise and share instead of endorsing/enabling people into more solo selfcentric autosatisfactory multi(lonely)player.

 

I am sorry if you feel the post look like bashing on PUGS, the object is to transform PUGers into Premaders, even if those premades are not fit for ranked, which is another ballgame, even Unranked should be gone to with a teamplay and voluntary mindset, and as said above, 80% of premades even those going to ranked can be taken on by a group of 4 peple willing to do their best, thereis only a tiny minority of players who are individually and teamswise so much above the rest of us others that the match is guarateed lost before it even started and I am sorry as casual gamers we can handle a loss every 5 matches, it keeps us in touch with reality.

 

When you go into a volley ball contest on the seashore during the summer, even if you went alone, you have more fun after you have socialized with other guys in your team and try to serve them best or transform their effort with your efforts into a point instead of ranting in your corner everytimes someone misses a smash a pass a block or a save and the other guys who went as a group of 4 friends have it easier.