When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[AMKSED]

I highlighted the areas in red where you lied/bsed/completely made stuff up.

 

 

 

I am a BM geared assassin, with 425 bonus damage, and 700 force bonus damage. When I have 3 stacks of harnessed darkness and use recklessness as I cast lightning, my damage per tick is roughly 1200 per crit on an opponent lesser geared than me (the guy I tested this on is a centurion/champion geared marauder).

 

 

The highest I've ever seen this crit for is 1800 on a green geared 50 (I know he was green geared because he had 11,000 hp and hit me for about 300 damage with a crit maul).

 

 

 

Also, a tank spec sin can never kill a conscience healer because the dps just isn't there. Tank assassins win 1v1 because they can heal so much/mitigate so much while stunning properly to maintain an hp advantage. They do not win 1v1 because their dps is "RAWR OMG." They play like a tank that slowly plinks the enemy away while maintaining hp. Thats it.

 

 

 

If you want proof in my numbers I can post screenshots, more than I know any of you can do.

 

You're prolly getting those numbers......on tanks with 50%+ damage reduction.

[MrXen]

You're prolly getting those numbers......on tanks with 50%+ damage reduction.

 

 

I already said where I got them, a centurion/champion/tionese implant geared Marauder in a 1v1 duel. With his buff included.

 

My gear: a mix of champion/battlemaster for maximum power.

 

 

 

The highest numbers I got on him after 10 duels were about 1250 crit ticks. Close to 1300 but not quite. With most being 800-1100

Edited April 1, 2012 by MrXen

[Shredbull]

They should be nerfed before they become a serious problem.

 

As for all the idiots with ''level 50 assassin'' in their signature so desperately defending their classes by posting made up statistics / damage numbers : Cut the crap boys, everyone knows that they simply out-class other class. The skill cap is medicore and once thats reached its rotation rotation and not a single person who can stop them.

 

Oh sure, you deal a little bit less damage once you get to the point where you go ROFL and have 22k+ hp.

 

By the way, do you want me to post some vids of a tanksin soloing 3 people while doing 2k force light ticks? Oh yes, that happened. And the tanksin had 23k hp.

 

Or perhaps some vids of shadows bursting out 13-14k damage, yes on lightwearers, but here comes the cherry on the cherry on the whipcream : in less than 4 friggin seconds?

 

I am sure you all have your arguements of how bad they CAN be but in the hands of a half intelligent person they are way overpowered just like operatives WERE, but get this, they dont only have sick opener damage, they can have sustained sick damage untill you die leaving your face like this :

[MrXen]

They should be nerfed before they become a serious problem.

 

As for all the idiots with ''level 50 assassin'' in their signature so desperately defending their classes by posting made up statistics / damage numbers : Cut the crap boys, everyone knows that they simply out-class other class. The skill cap is medicore and once thats reached its rotation rotation and not a single person who can stop them.

 

Oh sure, you deal a little bit less damage once you get to the point where you go ROFL and have 22k+ hp.

 

By the way, do you want me to post some vids of a tanksin soloing 3 people while doing 2k force light ticks? Oh yes, that happened. And the tanksin had 23k hp.

 

Or perhaps some vids of shadows bursting out 13-14k damage, yes on lightwearers, but here comes the cherry on the cherry on the whipcream : in less than 4 friggin seconds?

 

I am sure you all have your arguements of how bad they CAN be but in the hands of a half intelligent person they are way overpowered just like operatives WERE, but get this, they dont only have sick opener damage, they can have sustained sick damage untill you die leaving your face like this :

 

 

Yeah post it, because I call BS. And don't try posting a picture of a healthbar going to 0 and saying "it was an assassin."

 

 

In the mean time I'll respond with screenshots of exactly whats happening. Considering a 22k hp assassin is using survival gear, meaning his dps is gimped as much as a juggernaut, and a deception assassin can deliver good burst if the stars align (adrenal+relic+x2 shock proc+recklessness cooldown+no shielding from the enemy) dishing out a possible 9000 damage in about 4 seconds on a lesser geared light armor opponent, essentially blowing his load and after which the sin has to wait another 3 minutes to have the opportunity to try and do this again. Meanwhile marauders and operatives and juggs are hitting for 4-6k crits fairly often (not all the time because I don't exaggerate but a lot more consistent than assassins getting a double shock high roll crit).

Edited April 1, 2012 by MrXen

[evilmonkitar]

i play 34/0/7 in damage gear. if you're good you can take anything but you still struggle against good playing sents,troopers and what not. assassin is probably the most balanced class imo and others.

 

Yup, agreed.

 

 

 

 

 

If you cant kill an assassin tank, you probably just suck and/or the assassin is better.

[Pvpingwithnoobs]

I find it hilarious how far out of touch with balance BW is.

 

If they bothered to watch games on live and see the effectivnous of this class, they would see how severely op they are.

 

Yes in the hands on an under geared less experienced player they aren't that bad, but stick them in the same gear and BANG, they do obscene damage.

 

Stick them in an equal geared skilled player and rofl, they become god like, where the words, hack are used all to often.

 

Sorry, but I love how marauders are ignored (buffed) hilarious /golf clap

 

But to ignore this class is unbelievable.

 

You keep fighting the good fight BW, we believe you understand the game you create.

 

No honestly, we do lol!!

 

/sarcasm off

 

Try employing people who actually pvp before making class changes in future plz!!

Edited April 1, 2012 by Pvpingwithnoobs

[MrXen]

I find it hilarious how far out of touch with balance BW is.

 

If they bothered to watch games on live and see the effectivnous of this class, they would see how severely op they are.

 

Yes in the hands on an under geared less experienced player they aren't that bad, but stick them in the same gear and BANG, they do obscene damage.

 

Stick them in an equal geared skilled player and rofl, they become god like, where the words, hack are used all to often.

 

Sorry, but I love how marauders are ignored (buffed) hilarious /golf clap

 

But to ignore this class is unbelievable.

 

You keep fighting the good fight BW, we believe you understand the game you create.

 

No honestly, we do lol!!

 

/sarcasm off

 

Try employing people who actually pvp before making class changes in future plz!!

 

 

Play an assassin and get back to me. Also: Love it when a random internet hero decides he is smarter than a game company that remains unbiased in terms of balancing for the sake of keeping our $$ and claims that company is inept at picking "the right" classes to nerf and/or buff.

 

 

 

I'm sure Bioware's goal is to lose money and THATS why the "assassin class is OP." Not like they know anything about the game they made or anything. (in before no one gets that I'm being satirical here: the classes are fairly balanced, small tweaks here and there are all thats needed and thats what BW is doing, quit crying)

Edited April 1, 2012 by MrXen

[Neamhan]

By the way, do you want me to post some vids of a tanksin soloing 3 people while doing 2k force light ticks? Oh yes, that happened. And the tanksin had 23k hp.

 

Those had to be 3 really terrible people because to get that much health you have to be in PvE gear. Full battlemaster won't get you that much.

[Sayrir]

All this QQ about tanksins, try a Rage specced juggernaut, in DPS gear, in tank stance, critting smash for 6k.

[Cyannez]

Yeah post it, because I call BS. And don't try posting a picture of a healthbar going to 0 and saying "it was an assassin."

 

 

In the mean time I'll respond with screenshots of exactly whats happening. Considering a 22k hp assassin is using survival gear, meaning his dps is gimped as much as a juggernaut, and a deception assassin can deliver good burst if the stars align (adrenal+relic+x2 shock proc+recklessness cooldown+no shielding from the enemy) dishing out a possible 9000 damage in about 4 seconds on a lesser geared light armor opponent, essentially blowing his load and after which the sin has to wait another 3 minutes to have the opportunity to try and do this again. Meanwhile marauders and operatives and juggs are hitting for 4-6k crits fairly often (not all the time because I don't exaggerate but a lot more consistent than assassins getting a double shock high roll crit).

 

HAHAAHHA

 

Maybe in centurion gear or if you keep the original BM modding. As deception i can drop a 12k-18k burst (depending on class ofc) in 4 gcds. And that's w/o counting assassinate. Actually even w/o cds your maul and shock should crit over 4k on "clothers".

 

Geez both sides of this pointless argument make such end-of-scale statements it's hilarious.

To clear it up a bit: a 22k sin is most likely full tanking gear so hes dmg will be laughable.

A correctly dps geared / specced darkness sin can do 3k force lightning ticks / 5k+ shock on under-geared opponents. But he's not more tankier than a vengeance jugg for example.

A sin can't solo 2-3 people (or the entire enemy team as some say) unless they are utter morons or in lvl 20 greens, and even then it's a stretch.

 

Darkness is no way op, just badly thought out since they put all the utility goodies in the same tree. Ofc people want to play something more than a once per minute burst spec or an aoe pressure spec that is kinda useless in non-premade non-competitive play.

[Theology]

I have a War Hero 31/0/10 Assassin in DPS gear and a War Hero 8/6/27 Powertech.

 

The Assassin out does the Pyrotech in every single way except burst(Which, post 1.2, they'll be better at burst, too.)

 

They need nerfed.

[OmoveAbril]

Ok, i have had enough of this so im going to speak.

 

-At best in pvp we cant break the 45% mitigation on our AR = 20% more dmg tanken than troopers and 10% more than Knights.

-Only 2 defensive cooldowns = nerf our 5 sec immune to special attack an you will never see a Shadow main tank in a raid...the skill is a key ability

-Most of our pve dmg prevention comes from stats that have great diminished returns in PvP

-we are given more damage options becuase of this

-in dps gear our self heal is not as great

 

People are asking for a nerf to us cuz of a few things that if we dint have in PvE we would be worthless! The Devs already said they are aware OF ALL TANK WEARING DPS GEAR!!! means its on the raidar for a nerf that FOR ALL TANKs. Inseat of childish wishes to destroy the mechanics of the tank how bout you complain about Tank in DPS GEAR!

 

Some classes have no bizz hitting a tank! i rock Tank gear vs Dps and there are classes that my avoidance makes them cry you wanna nerf me becuase a dps spec melee based toon cant PWN ME or becuase for 5 sec i can avoid special dmg! for heaven sake smart ppl can burn a tan kdown no matter what the build.

 

You solo play rock stars can bugger off! 1v1 is for people who need thier ego inflated cuz they cant get laid in real life. its a team sport to looking for personal numbers and help the team.

 

Tanks i play correctly should have all their CC, Taunt, Avoidance , and Debuffs on CD. If they do they have hardly any resorce left to dmg.

 

to all the children wear DPS GEAR IN TANK STANCE, WITH TANK SPEC, GET THE HELL OUT OF THE TANK SPEC YOU ARE BESMERCHING ALL TANKS IN THIS GAME WITH YOUR SELFISH GAMEPLAY

 

Some spec should suck against tanks and if yours in one well you dumb ****** your a scissor and im a rock go find a peice of paper and kill something that is hurting your healer!

Edited April 1, 2012 by OmoveAbril

[Pvpingwithnoobs]

Bach nvm, edit as I think I should have read the post before replying lol Edited April 1, 2012 by Pvpingwithnoobs

[Mize]

This is such a charged topic and almost @ 100 pages, I would be really surprised if someone at BW hasn't seen this yet. I'm glad two of the Shadows I've personally seen dominating with this setup have openly said they're OP and they know it. Can't wait until they adapt to the inevitable nerf and all the "bads" jump to the next FOTM.

[AMKSED]

This is such a charged topic and almost @ 100 pages, I would be really surprised if someone at BW hasn't seen this yet. I'm glad two of the Shadows I've personally seen dominating with this setup have openly said they're OP and they know it. Can't wait until they adapt to the inevitable nerf and all the "bads" jump to the next FOTM.

 

I literally can't stand play KC /w DPS gear anymore. I switched to Balance because I'm so tired of seeing Assassins/Shadows playing it now. What's funnier is they're able to play it half-arse and still kill almost any class.

[OmoveAbril]

the DPS GEARED TANKS need to **** of group based pvp and go kill players in open world where solo play tuned build is appreciated.

 

Real tanks are more Easy to heal in WZ's and with DPS'ing is not an option you are force to use diff tools and play a more effective tank than spaming your way to the dps board.

 

THIS IS MORE THAN A SHADOW/ASSASIN ISSUE! its all tanks

[AMKSED]

the DPS GEARED TANKS need to **** of group based pvp and go kill players in open world where solo play tuned build is appreciated.

 

Real tanks are more Easy to heal in WZ's and with DPS'ing is not an option you are force to use diff tools and play a more effective tank than spaming your way to the dps board.

 

THIS IS MORE THAN A SHADOW/ASSASIN ISSUE! its all tanks

 

You obviously don't play with a good hybrid Shadow/Assassin.

 

The only thing they're missing compared to a real tank is 4k health but in return they do 2x more damage than a regular tank and they can heal themselves pretty decent.

 

Know what I can do with my hybrid Shadow? Guard a healer and stay alive and if my healer gets some DPS classes on him I not only can just taunt them but I do enough DPS to where I can kill them in a timely manner. So instead of being a regular tank and just taunting them and waiting for the DPS help to come. I can do all of the above.

[OmoveAbril]

i can do kill the person attacking my healer, it mmight tank time but thats the point. the more that dps spinns his wheels he is not chasing an objective or kill a person who dosent have my guard.

 

-my burst is fine, i got a crit/surge relic for when i need more dps. i play with a few in my guild and i can beat any of them in a 1v1 and im the choice shadow tank for the premades if im online.

 

Sheild/ absorb works on guarded dmg, i uses this accelerated force regen to spam more skills. More skills =dps. i also tank that dmg that was reduced an reduce if even more before armor so killing the tank through guard is not possible w/o 80 of the other team focus on my healer or I.

 

If i have to deal with a class that is my counter...well i hope i got all my CD's up and my surge/crit relic is ready cuz its gonna be close if my pocket heals are gone. but that should not be an issue if your playing correctly.

 

if you get above 250k dps as a tank your doing it wrong or you face rolled a buch of newbs

[lucianoconverti]

I think I have read almost all the posts in this thread and I have yet to see any valid argument of why kinetic shadows in DPS gear should be nerfed. There are countless posts of people claiming they are overpowered but I still haven't seen any serious analysis of stats or skills to prove this.

 

Being a kinetic shadow myself (31/0/10 I would like to share my thoughts since I don't understand why we are considered overpowered and there seem to be a lot of wrong facts about this class and spec.

 

Kinetic Shadows who do high damage are specced and geared for damage, we are not much of a tank. We don't have any defensive stats on our gear and we don't use a shield or kinetic ward (if they do they are doing less damage).

 

Both of the other tanks can do exactly the same thing. Guardians using soresu and vanguards in ion cell with DPS gear can do similar damage and still use guard. I have seen both types on my server and they can consistently do the same damage as shadows. I would love to hear some argument about why people think we are better than other tank classes.

 

Compared to other DPS classes, while tanks have higher damage reduction, they have comparable less damage output.

People like to show screenshots as if they were proof of something, I've seen the one on previous posts about an assasin (Zap) doing 750k damage. This does not mean we can consistently do that kind of damage. I play on the same server as that assasin so I know him well, he is probably the best shadow/assasin I have seen and he does not do that damage regularly. People need to understand there are countless variables that can modify how much damage you do in a warzone (gear level of the enemy players, amount of healers on each side to maximize uptime on targets, how often they group together so you benefit more from aoe). So this is not a good way to measure some class potential DPS. However, I have seen countless screenshots of DPS classes doing close to 1 million damage.

Edited April 2, 2012 by lucianoconverti

[Redmarx]

I have a War Hero 31/0/10 Assassin in DPS gear and a War Hero 8/6/27 Powertech.

 

The Assassin out does the Pyrotech in every single way except burst(Which, post 1.2, they'll be better at burst, too.)

 

They need nerfed.

 

This.

[Astarica]

On my various alts I noticed a big problem with Assassins is that if you at least know how to push Force Shroud, you're pretty much exactly as hard to kill as a top player of your class wearing the same gear. Most class's increase their survivality with skill, but Assassins start out at maximum survivality for all skill levels. I see a lot of Assassins who aren't good at doing DPS, but they're still just about as hard to kill as a top Assassin because nearly all of their defenses are passive. The class automatically starts out with top player's survivality regardless of skill. You might need to learn how to utilize your offesnive capability but not dying is like winning 75% of the fight already.

[Grimspire]

All this QQ about tanksins, try a Rage specced juggernaut, in DPS gear, in tank stance, critting smash for 6k.

 

No, Rage specced Juggernauts don't dps in Tank stance, they dps in Shii-cho form. If they are Rage specced but in Tank stance they are severely limiting their rage generation which lowers their dps significantly.

 

Because they aren't in tank stance, they can't guard.

 

The short and sweet of it is:

 

TANK SPEC Assassins in TANK STANCE do too much DAMAGE. Lower the Darkness spec's damage output and you'll be left with a tank that still has some of the highest utility in the game.

[lucianoconverti]

This.

 

Care to elaborate on how the assasin out does the pyrotech in every single way?

Please provide some stat or skill comparison to support your claims.

 

On my various alts I noticed a big problem with Assassins is that if you at least know how to push Force Shroud, you're pretty much exactly as hard to kill as a top player of your class wearing the same gear. Most class's increase their survivality with skill, but Assassins start out at maximum survivality for all skill levels. I see a lot of Assassins who aren't good at doing DPS, but they're still just about as hard to kill as a top Assassin because nearly all of their defenses are passive. The class automatically starts out with top player's survivality regardless of skill. You might need to learn how to utilize your offesnive capability but not dying is like winning 75% of the fight already.

 

How is force shroud so powerful? It is a good skill yes but hardly overpowered, it lasts only 5 seconds when specced and works only against tech and force attacks. Are you aware other classes have similar defensive skills too? Have you ever tried to kill a marauder?

What do you mean by top survivality and passive defenses? What spec and gear are we talking about? If anything defensive assasins are the less passive since they have to constantly refresh kinetic ward and debuff with slow time to reach the other tanks mitigation levels.

 

No, Rage specced Juggernauts don't dps in Tank stance, they dps in Shii-cho form. If they are Rage specced but in Tank stance they are severely limiting their rage generation which lowers their dps significantly.

 

Because they aren't in tank stance, they can't guard.

 

The short and sweet of it is:

 

TANK SPEC Assassins in TANK STANCE do too much DAMAGE. Lower the Darkness spec's damage output and you'll be left with a tank that still has some of the highest utility in the game.

 

Granted, Juggernauts in tank stance do significantly less damage, I have seen Juggernauts do over 900k damage and on tank stance the best I have seen so far is 600k damage. Is that not good enough? Do you think it's easy for a shadow to do 600k damage?

Screenshots of records in warzones are not a good way to compare classes damage, let's wait until we have combat logs or training dummies to do some serious comparison, shouldn't be long since they already on the PTS.

[Jo-Han]

 

How is force shroud so powerful? It is a good skill yes but hardly overpowered, it lasts only 5 seconds when specced and works only against tech and force attacks. Are you aware other classes have similar defensive skills too? Have you ever tried to kill a marauder?

What do you mean by top survivality and passive defenses? What spec and gear are we talking about? If anything defensive assasins are the less passive since they have to constantly refresh kinetic ward and debuff with slow time to reach the other tanks mitigation levels.

 

Force shroud is overpowered because not only does it protect against force and tech attacks (which in itself let you autowin against opertives). It also cleanses all dots and ill effects and on a fairly low cooldown.

 

I have a Marauder in full Battlemaster gear and Shadows are by far my worst match-up. The ability to cleanse all dots instantly and also 5 secs immunity to some of my key abilities is amazing. If I have my sabre ward and force camouflage off cooldown I might have a chance, but odds are I will lose anyway. And I can honestly say that a well timed force shroud often will kill the fight right then and there.

 

Besides having force shroud shadows have a plethora of great abilities.

 

- Slow time as an AoE. Damage, a small snare and damage mitigation. All in one.

- Sprint on 20s cooldown that also breaks snares.

- PB-AOE pushback on a low cooldown

- 2 stuns

- Self healing

- Execute style move

 

On top of that Shadows often have a high amount of HP (even in DPS-gear) and excellent defenses. The combination of good DPS (much higher than any other tank), a lot of tricks and great defences make them so good. Bioware need to reduce the amount of damage shadows do in their tank stance. No other tank do the same amount of damage. Why should shadows have better DPS output than other tanks and why give shadows an execute style of attack with 6 sec cooldown? That move in itself increase the burst damage potential too much for a tank spec.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Jo-Han

[broganthomas]

Force shroud is overpowered because not only does it protect against force and tech attacks (which in itself let you autowin against opertives). It also cleanses all dots and ill effects and on a fairly low cooldown.

 

I have a Marauder in full Battlemaster gear and Shadows are by far my worst match-up. The ability to cleanse all dots instantly and also 5 secs immunity to some of my key abilities is amazing. If I have my sabre ward and force camouflage off cooldown I might have a chance, but odds are I will lose anyway. And I can honestly say that a well timed force shroud often will kill the fight right then and there.

 

Besides having force shroud shadows have a plethora of great abilities.

 

- Slow time as an AoE. Damage, a small snare and damage mitigation. All in one.

- Sprint on 20s cooldown that also breaks snares.

- PB-AOE pushback on a low cooldown

- 2 stuns

- Self healing

- Execute style move

 

On top of that Shadows often have a high amount of HP (even in DPS-gear) and excellent defenses. The combination of good DPS (much higher than any other tank), a lot of tricks and great defences make them so good. Bioware need to reduce the amount of damage shadows do in their tank stance. No other tank do the same amount of damage. Why should shadows have better DPS output than other tanks and why give shadows an execute style of attack with 6 sec cooldown? That move in itself increase the burst damage potential too much for a tank spec.

 

I'm surprised sentinels aren't catching a nerf yet, but they will right after the assassin.