Jo-Han Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 i would think you're not specially fit for pvp when you cant counter another class yourself. and if you need another person with you to take down one.... that's all.. but hey people not fit for pvp will always come to forum and make nerf threads. not likely bioware will listen cause they probably have some real good pvpers working for them that picks out flaws... The sarcasm was lost on you eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo-Han Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) think you need to ease up on the kool-aid. compare other classes played by good pvpers. nothing special about it. it comes to who you meet and so on. a shadow/assassin faced 2-3 other good players would not be up after the cds popped. unless using force cloak. and no way a tankassin could down burst one of those guys during those cds. atleast no good player So you think its ok that it would take 2-3 good players to defeat a tank specced assassin? Edited April 2, 2012 by Jo-Han Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathelia Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 So you think its ok that it would take 2-3 good players to defeat a tank specced assassin? 2-3 no skilled pvpers? ofc i can do that with my hybrid merc or my marauder so what is your point?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broganthomas Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 A simple question, What well played class can effectively beat us, dps kinetic shadows 1v1? This game isn't balanced around 1v1, so who cares? And my sentinel would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenolf Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Have Tankasins been adjusted yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrXen Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) HAHAAHHA Maybe in centurion gear or if you keep the original BM modding. As deception i can drop a 12k-18k burst (depending on class ofc) in 4 gcds. And that's w/o counting assassinate. Actually even w/o cds your maul and shock should crit over 4k on "clothers". Geez both sides of this pointless argument make such end-of-scale statements it's hilarious. To clear it up a bit: a 22k sin is most likely full tanking gear so hes dmg will be laughable. A correctly dps geared / specced darkness sin can do 3k force lightning ticks / 5k+ shock on under-geared opponents. But he's not more tankier than a vengeance jugg for example. A sin can't solo 2-3 people (or the entire enemy team as some say) unless they are utter morons or in lvl 20 greens, and even then it's a stretch. Darkness is no way op, just badly thought out since they put all the utility goodies in the same tree. Ofc people want to play something more than a once per minute burst spec or an aoe pressure spec that is kinda useless in non-premade non-competitive play. Most of what you said is fairly correct, except the red highlighted area. I am deception spec (my favorite tree) and you ARE in fact right that shock can crit for 4k as well as maul if the stars align and you use adrenals etc etc etc. However please tell me how a 4k shock crit (rare but not impossible counting the 2nd shock proc), + a 4k maul crit (ultra rare) + maybe a 3k discharge crit (ultra rare) = 12k-18k? That is 11k at max if the RNG gods bless you and you are fighting a target not being protected by anything whatsoever. In short: 4k+4k+3k = 11k if the gods are on your side and the blue moon is up and the now 8 planets align on Friday the 13th against a lower clothy. And that is closer to a "4.5 second burst" due to in-use delay. Edited April 2, 2012 by MrXen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaodon Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Why are people still posting in this qq thread from bads who suck at PvP? I can beat all classes, on all classes. That's because I don't suck. Shadow's nemesis? All classes, played by players who don't suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krytycal Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) Most of what you said is fairly correct, except the red highlighted area. I am deception spec (my favorite tree) and you ARE in fact right that shock can crit for 4k as well as maul if the stars align and you use adrenals etc etc etc. However please tell me how a 4k shock crit (rare but not impossible counting the 2nd shock proc), + a 4k maul crit (ultra rare) + maybe a 3k discharge crit (ultra rare) = 12k-18k? That is 11k at max if the RNG gods bless you and you are fighting a target not being protected by anything whatsoever. In short: 4k+4k+3k = 11k if the gods are on your side and the blue moon is up and the now 8 planets align on Friday the 13th against a lower clothy. And that is closer to a "4.5 second burst" due to in-use delay. Discharge hits harder than Shock (minus Shock proc) and Maul. I can see it being 4K + 4K + 4.5K. The problem with this is, like you mentioned, you pretty much need all the stars aligned for this kind of burst. Which is why I laugh at all the deception videos which are nothing but clips of blowing all their cooldowns on sorcs for MASSIVE DMG. The reality is that with recklessness and adrenals down, and without crits, you won't be hitting nearly as hard. Instead you'll get pooped on because that's what happens to squishy clothies with mediocre damage who try to dish it out in melee with maras, tank sins and PTs. Edited April 2, 2012 by Krytycal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDRedmage Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) I play premades with a couple of KC hybrid shadows and I gotta say, that specific build probably needs a nerf. When played by a competent player with gear they require 3+ people to take down, all the while killing people like almost as well as a dps class. They have high defense and pretty high damage with tons of control/gap closers. I get that you have to press more than 1 button to be effective. But pressing more buttons in no way balances this build. Generally in MMOs devs try to curb hybrid builds because they're subject to abusive min/maxing and are a pain to balance. This is why I suspect its damn near impossible to build a healer hybrid scoundrel/operative. Not sure why KC shadows slipped through. Non hybrid builds are very reasonable though and I don't think are OP. Edited April 2, 2012 by TDRedmage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enkenon Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Nerf all you want. But you'll never nerf a better player. There are op specs and tree skill combinations for each and every class in SWTOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo-Han Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I can beat all classes, on all classes. That's because I don't suck. No you cant. If you face a player with equal skill and gear you cant beat all classes with all classes. Stop tooting your own horn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDRedmage Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Nerf all you want. But you'll never nerf a better player. There are op specs and tree skill combinations for each and every class in SWTOR. Really? Would you mind explaining the op hybrid spec for scoundrels? I am very interested in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLakers Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) With that being said they easily become a joke when one jumps on me and my Op and Jugg friends switch right to him and the assassin dies quickly from good peelers as would any other class. It's all about group play which is the big picture not 1v1. Except Assassin's have a ridiculously overpowered self heal, damage immunity, self cleanse and oh VANISH. If that assasin died quickly then he had no idea what he was doing. More likely, your OP and Jugg spent a good minute trying to kill him and then he vanished and sprinted away to safety before you could actually finish the job. The big picture is pretty simple. Tanksins are completely and utterly broken. Edited April 2, 2012 by TheLakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenolf Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Tanksins are completely and utterly broken. This sums it up for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zintair Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) Why do people continue to call 31/0/10 hybrid? Would you rather we spec'd 41/0/0? Scrub trollers Hybrid spec != Gearing I can't wait for Rateds and all this BS disappears. Edited April 2, 2012 by Zintair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLakers Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) I can't wait for Rateds and all this BS disappears. Hint: It's not going to disappear when Tanksin is easily the best class to solo Ranked Q as. Being able to put up 500k+ dmg, 100-200k prot and 100k healing all in a single warzone tends draw people to that class/spec. Which is why 90% of all Shadow/Sins are running around in tank stance. Edited April 2, 2012 by TheLakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 flight is delayed and im bored...i wanna see this post reach the 1k mark before i get back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaodon Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 No you cant. If you face a player with equal skill and gear you cant beat all classes with all classes. Stop tooting your own horn. Yes I can. Try sucking less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Let's start with the 1v1 aspect first for Tankasins. Due to Force Shroud there are 3 matchups that are autowins: Sorcerers, Mercs, and Operatives. These class are just so heavily dependent on Tech/Force damage that they might as well roll over and die whenever you use Force Shroud. A Merc's TM stacks may end up causing you to lose your next 1v1 after you killed him though, so that puts Mercs at around the 3rd best class against Tankasin since you might lose to someone else after you killed him. Snipers gets killed by the fact that Force Speed removes root. They can never create separation and they can't win without it. Jugg/PT DPS isn't as lopsided but the fact you do comparable damage and is way harder to kill than they are means the fight is solidly in your favor. Marauder is the closest mirror matchup. All his CDs in theory has counters by yours but since you're the hardest to kill class in the game, you may not have all your CDs (because you presumably used them to keep yourself alive from an earlier fight). If both characters have all their CDs and use all of them, the Assassin will win. In realistic situations this can go either way, though in 1.2 it'd be more in favor of Assassin with Force Camo nerfed (this CD is generally responsible for a loss against a Marauder). Now you move to teamplay. Well, Force Shroud is strong against focus fire. I can escape from grappled into 20 guys in Ilum where I am the only guy they could focus fire, and not really sure you can expect anything better than that. For movement-based CCs, Force Speed + Force Pull gives you as much protection from these ability as can be reasonably expected. Your DPS range is 10m, unlike 4m for most melees. And of course Assassins have all kinds of teamplay goodies, like AE snare (Wither), taunt, and guard. You can easily argue an Assassin is much stronger in team play than even 1on1, and we're pretty darn good at 1on1 too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaodon Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Being able to put up 500k+ dmg, 100-200k prot and 100k healing all in a single warzone tends draw people to that class/spec. Which is why 90% of all Shadow/Sins are running around in tank stance. Shadow/assassins can't score 500k dmg, 1-200k prot and 100k healing in "a warzone." They can only do that once in a while in Void Star, and *only* Void Star, due to its design. If you show me a screen shot of those kind of numbers in huttball or alderaan, then you can have my account. Void Star is the most commonly used straw man to make fake arguments about "OPness" that terribads always use on these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiza Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) Hint: It's not going to disappear when Tanksin is easily the best class to solo Ranked Q as. Being able to put up 500k+ dmg, 100-200k prot and 100k healing all in a single warzone tends draw people to that class/spec. Which is why 90% of all Shadow/Sins are running around in tank stance. -trololololol. No darkness assassin is putting up those figures in a solo queue. That would need a few dedicated healers and a horrible opposition that doesn't take out said healers. Plus, 70% of that 500k is all buffer/splash damage. Fail #1 -trololololol @ ANYONE solo queuing in rated WZs. Ever. Fail #2 Edited April 2, 2012 by Abiza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 So you dont think Force Shroud is powerful? I have to spend my full resource bar and valuable GCD to apply effects that you remove with one click and then gain immunity for 5 secs. What should I do when you apply Force Shroud? Shake angrily with my fist at you? Undying Rage is easily countered by a somewhat competent player and has a major drawback. Whats the drawback with Force Shroud? Give me Force Shroud and you can have Undying Rage, Of course it's a powerful ability. Believe it or not, every class gets a few powerful abilities. Are you trying to say Undying Rage isn't powerful? Force Shroud lasts 5 seconds, which is 3 global cooldowns. If you don't have a single non-force attack you can using during that time frame that's an issue with Marauders, not Assassins. A Shadow in full DPS-gear still has more HP than a Marauder with equivalent gear. Sure, Guardians have as much utility as a Shadow but the problem is not the utility in itself. Its the utility coupled with the high damage output compared to other tanks that make Shadows so great. Where's the proof that an Assassin has more health than a Marauder when both are in DPS gear? Just because you say it's so doesn't make it so. Let's see some proof of that. If it turns out to be true, it's a gear itemization issue since health is based on endurance. Look at the Guardian tree. Almost all abilities are about mitigation, defence and resource management. Then look at the Shadow tank tree. There are a lot of abilities that give you bonus damage and very few that are about pure defence. Which is why Guardians have better defense than Assassins. Go figure. Guardians have problems of their own, but mitigation isn't it. You'll also note that one of the reasons for all those damage abilities in the tanking tree is because Assassins have no access to a talent that straight up increases their main stat by a % like the other two tanks do (Guardians can get a 6% strength increase while Vanguards can get 9% aim). Instead, Assassins get abilities that buff specific skills or attacks. Fighting a Shadow is like fighting a DPS-class with steady high dps and tank survivability. Is that fair? What class is your nemesis class to face? You dont have any. What's 'high' damage? By who's definition? You've provided absolutely no support for that assertion other than 'because I said so'. Combat logs are available on the test server now so let's see some numbers to back up your claim. What kind of dps does an Assassin do? In what gear? How much of it is just AoE splash damage? What are you comparing that dps to that makes it 'high'? Is it too close to a Marauder's dps? What is that? What's the dps of a Guardian and Vanguard so we can compare all the tanks? As for an Assassin's nemesis, it's anything that puts out a large amount of damage in a short amount of time. A tank Assassin relies on extending the fight long enough to use the self heals so they can eat away at the opponents health. So well played, equal geared Sentinels (hint: the really good ones don't come to the forums whining about other classes) or Pyro PTs (especially the pyro/tank hybrids) top the list. Assassin certainly do well in duels, it's true. But this game isn't balanced around 1v1, nor should it be. When we start getting to 4v4 or 5v5 the luster comes off that shine since an Assassin is much easier to focus down than either of the other two tanks in those circumstances. That's where the extra mitigation those other tanks get makes them more useful in their actual tanking role. And the most damage I've ever seen from one of the tank classes is that screenshot of the 900k+ from a Guardian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSafana Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 OP, and that's why I now play one. 31/0/10 full dps gear. Please NERF my class so I can play a class I like better. If every other class was balanced there wouldn't be so many in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormStride Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 OP, and that's why I now play one. 31/0/10 full dps gear. Please NERF my class so I can play a class I like better. If every other class was balanced there wouldn't be so many in the game. i don't know why, but i believe him, yo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuzt Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 They are fine, people need to stop asking for nerfs period. BW goes off the deep end with nerfs (see healers 1.2) if you keep asking for nerfs then every class in this game will become useless. How about you figure out which classes are under performing and ask they be buffed to par. Don't give BW any more reasons to blindly and wildly nerf classes, its pretty obvious that they use a sledge hammer instead of a bat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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