This is such a charged topic and almost @ 100 pages, I would be really surprised if someone at BW hasn't seen this yet. I'm glad two of the Shadows I've personally seen dominating with this setup have openly said they're OP and they know it. Can't wait until they adapt to the inevitable nerf and all the "bads" jump to the next FOTM.

Keep this thread alive man, thanks for being so honest about your spec/gear combo being unbalanced. I made a thread on both Sin/Shadow forums a while ago and of course got 75% troll responses. I think a lot of people saying it's not "OP" either play it and aren't good, or have played against bad ones that don't know how to use this combo effectively. Yeah you can die, duh, but damn is it hard to take you down for how much DPS you dish out during your extensive uptime. Supported by a healer, it's just plain nuts.

It's going to happen. Like I said in the OP, people don't want to lose something they enjoy. Those of you saying you do "moderate" damage are just silly... you're not giving up damage to gain survivability. You're getting much better, less positional damage in Darkness, with more survivability and utility than the pure DPS trees. One of the factors is not "OP" in itself, but when you add them all together they create an imbalance. The tank tree is simply not supposed to have that level of offensive power. Do I need to be a Dev to understand the defensive tree is not supposed to be the preferred tree for damage? Ok, I concede that quite possibly Deception can do more damage. At 4m. With much less resiliency. Extend the range of your most powerful abilities to 10m, add a large chunk of passive mitigation and self healing, and you have the reason why 31/0/10 is doing more damage than intended. The statement that it is not intended is an opinion, duh. But it's based on common MMO experience that the TANK specs are generally not chosen for laying down high damage. Are we really going to sit here with our fingers in our ears acting like that's not a common reality? I'm very confused why some of you think the message here is that Darkness needs a nerf to it's survivability. That's completely opposite... Darkness is supposed to have that. It is not supposed to do high damage while retaining most of the benefits of a tank type spec. Yes I know you give up shield chance, HP, and defense when you wear DPS gear. Please run around in Lightning Charge and tell me how long you last in a scrap. Then tell me that Dark Charge's armor and self heals don't matter for much in PVP. I think that's another case of not wanting to believe there's any problem. Do I have a solution? Not sure... perhaps the bonus damage reduction on Dark Charge needs to be increased? Threat generation could be upped to keep PVE balance in line and would have no affect on PVP. It's a very fine line to walk because this is an issue specific to PVP, and these kind of issues take forever to properly fix/balance because of their impact on the PVE game. I have a lot of faith in Bioware and I am hoping, even expecting to see many balance changes in the 1.2 notes. Sorcs/Sages have been really comfy for a while too and I think it's just all going to come out in the big patch. We've seen that BW doesn't often talk about class balance changes, so it's no surprise all the various complaints haven't been addressed yet.

I've read countless forum threads, and lots of whine threads, about nearly every class. I never saw myself posting one, but I do so in the vain hope that it will get some kind of attention that may eventually reach the ears of those who control class balance. Many of you know the spec, and abuse it heavily. I really can't blame you because who wouldn't use the most powerful build in PVP? We're talking about 31/0/10, or 27/0/14. When the Shadow/Sin class was designed, I'm very certain the devs had intended people using the tank tree to be using tank gear. However, by using DPS heavy stats and stacking power/surge while using a focus, PVP Shadows/Sins have found they are much more mobile and able to dish out large amounts of consistent damage. This stems mainly from a few abilities that, when used with the aforementioned heavy DPS stats, do much greater than intended damage (Note I have spelled out terms for both Shadow and Assassin): Energize/Particle Acceleration: When using Dark Charge/Combat Technique, each hit of Double Strike/Thrash has a 30% chance to finish the cooldown on Project/Shock and cause it to auto-crit. If Force Potency/Recklessness is popped, it adds +50% crit damage (This hits VERY hard with FP/Reck popped). Bombardment/Electrify: Makes Project/Shock do +15% base damage. Harnessed Shadows/Harnessed Darkness: Project/Shock has a 100% chance to grant a stack of HS/HD, which causes the next Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning to be uninterruptible and have no pushback. Also, each stack adds 25% damage, to a max of 75% bonus damage with 3 stacks. Force Synergy/Exploitive Strikes: Critical hits with Force attacks add 9% melee crit for 10 seconds. With crit Project/Shocks going off, this ability has a long and dependable uptime. Upheavel/Chain Shock: Project/Shock has a 45% chance to activate a second Project/Shock that does 50% of normal damage. Force in Balance/Death Field: Deals 1002-1066 damage to up to 3 targets in an 8-meter radius, healing you for 1% of max health for each target struck. The above abilities, when used in combination with gear heavier on Willpower, Crit, Power, and Surge, are able to deal very high and consistent damage. It is my opinion that the devs did not balance these abilities around DPS gear, but rather to give tanks sufficient damage to hold threat and maintain decent DPS. This spec, 31/0/10 or 27/0/14, is a very resilient build as well. By using Dark Charge/Combat Technique, armor is automatically increased by 150%. White damage is still a significant source of DPS in this game, and that boost to armor is nothing to scoff at. Also, by using the Darkness/Combat trees, players will pick up many defensive and utility abilities as well, making this the most mobile and defensive of all Shadow/Sin builds. Just to touch on this, here are the advantages gained in the mobility/utility department: - Force speed cooldown reduced to 20s, and breaks roots/snares on use. - Force Shroud/Resilience lasts 2 seconds longer, and has a 15 second shorter cooldown. (this is a VERY powerful cooldown, on a 45 second timer!) - 10% max health every 2 min (Impact Control/Hollow in tank tree) - Force Pull, I think this one speaks for itself. Basically a melee/short-range DPS class that can pull targets to them. Yes Vanguard/Powertech can do this anyway, but I'm just citing how this adds a lot to the utility of this build. - Spinning Kick/Spike usable out of stealth. This gives Shadow/Sin two stuns and an interrupt. - Force Lift/Whirlwind activation time removed, instant cast, and adds 2s stun if broken early on damage. This depends on build, but adds a great level of battlefield control on a 1 min cooldown. You have to ditch Harnessed Shadows/Darkness for this though, so damage is traded for utility. Those of you that play this build and gearing know how powerful it is. I cannot blame you at all for (ab)using it, as every PVP player will take any edge they can get. However, you just can't claim that the Tank tree was intended to be played this way. It is out of balance, and for lack of a better term, just straight OP. You can respond with L2P, how you die all the time in this spec, etc. etc. It doesn't really matter, because you are defending something you don't want to lose. Are these players un-killable? Of course not, and PVP for the most part is a team affair. One Shadow/Sin with the FOTM build is not going to win the WZ for you. But properly supported, they can be absolute machines that tip the scales far too much in their team's favor. In numbers, this build is downright scary. I hope I've shed some light on an imbalance, and again my only intention was to make a public explanation in the hopes that a Dev might see or hear about this. Not looking for support or criticism. If you don't believe me, play it yourself with real gear (read: Champ/BM) and learn how to excel with the build. ---- P.S. If this strategy is indeed nerfed, Infiltration/Deception and Balance/Madness NEED to be buffed somewhat to make Shadow/Sin DPS more formidable when they have less survivability. In no way am I saying to adjust the popular spec and not make up for the shortcomings of the true damage specs.

I've read countless forum threads, and lots of whine threads, about nearly every class. I never saw myself posting one, but I do so in the vain hope that it will get some kind of attention that may eventually reach the ears of those who control class balance. Many of you know the spec, and abuse it heavily. I really can't blame you because who wouldn't use the most powerful build in PVP? We're talking about 31/0/10, or 27/0/14. When the Shadow/Sin class was designed, I'm very certain the devs had intended people using the tank tree to be using tank gear. However, by using DPS heavy stats and stacking power/surge while using a focus, PVP Shadows/Sins have found they are much more mobile and able to dish out large amounts of consistent damage. This stems mainly from a few abilities that, when used with the aforementioned heavy DPS stats, do much greater than intended damage (Note I have spelled out terms for both Shadow and Assassin): Energize/Particle Acceleration: When using Dark Charge/Combat Technique, each hit of Double Strike/Thrash has a 30% chance to finish the cooldown on Project/Shock and cause it to auto-crit. If Force Potency/Recklessness is popped, it adds +50% crit damage (This hits VERY hard with FP/Reck popped). Bombardment/Electrify: Makes Project/Shock do +15% base damage. Harnessed Shadows/Harnessed Darkness: Project/Shock has a 100% chance to grant a stack of HS/HD, which causes the next Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning to be uninterruptible and have no pushback. Also, each stack adds 25% damage, to a max of 75% bonus damage with 3 stacks. Force Synergy/Exploitive Strikes: Critical hits with Force attacks add 9% melee crit for 10 seconds. With crit Project/Shocks going off, this ability has a long and dependable uptime. Upheavel/Chain Shock: Project/Shock has a 45% chance to activate a second Project/Shock that does 50% of normal damage. Force in Balance/Death Field: Deals 1002-1066 damage to up to 3 targets in an 8-meter radius, healing you for 1% of max health for each target struck. The above abilities, when used in combination with gear heavier on Willpower, Crit, Power, and Surge, are able to deal very high and consistent damage. It is my opinion that the devs did not balance these abilities around DPS gear, but rather to give tanks sufficient damage to hold threat and maintain decent DPS. This spec, 31/0/10 or 27/0/14, is a very resilient build as well. By using Dark Charge/Combat Technique, armor is automatically increased by 150%. White damage is still a significant source of DPS in this game, and that boost to armor is nothing to scoff at. Also, by using the Darkness/Combat trees, players will pick up many defensive and utility abilities as well, making this the most mobile and defensive of all Shadow/Sin builds. Just to touch on this, here are the advantages gained in the mobility/utility department: - Force speed cooldown reduced to 20s, and breaks roots/snares on use. - Force Shroud/Resilience lasts 2 seconds longer, and has a 15 second shorter cooldown. (this is a VERY powerful cooldown, on a 45 second timer!) - 10% max health every 2 min (Impact Control/Hollow in tank tree) - Force Pull, I think this one speaks for itself. Basically a melee/short-range DPS class that can pull targets to them. Yes Vanguard/Powertech can do this anyway, but I'm just citing how this adds a lot to the utility of this build. - Spinning Kick/Spike usable out of stealth. This gives Shadow/Sin two stuns and an interrupt. - Force Lift/Whirlwind activation time removed, instant cast, and adds 2s stun if broken early on damage. This depends on build, but adds a great level of battlefield control on a 1 min cooldown. You have to ditch Harnessed Shadows/Darkness for this though, so damage is traded for utility. Those of you that play this build and gearing know how powerful it is. I cannot blame you at all for (ab)using it, as every PVP player will take any edge they can get. However, you just can't claim that the Tank tree was intended to be played this way. It is out of balance, and for lack of a better term, just straight OP. You can respond with L2P, how you die all the time in this spec, etc. etc. It doesn't really matter, because you are defending something you don't want to lose. Are these players un-killable? Of course not, and PVP for the most part is a team affair. One Shadow/Sin with the FOTM build is not going to win the WZ for you. But properly supported, they can be absolute machines that tip the scales far too much in their team's favor. In numbers, this build is downright scary. I hope I've shed some light on an imbalance, and again my only intention was to make a public explanation in the hopes that a Dev might see or hear about this. Not looking for support or criticism. If you don't believe me, play it yourself with real gear (read: Champ/BM) and learn how to excel with the build. ---- P.S. If this strategy is indeed nerfed, Infiltration/Deception and Balance/Madness NEED to be buffed somewhat to make Shadow/Sin DPS more formidable when they have less survivability. In no way am I saying to adjust the popular spec and not make up for the shortcomings of the true damage specs.

Poor dps? Ambush and Takedown (Sniper) crit for 4k in warzones, and that's in the 20's. The biggest problem with Sniper/Gunslinger damage is maintaining it because the cover mechanic is a little clunky and hindered by any kind of lag, as are cast-time abilities. I believe we cover the role of glass cannon pretty well, positioning and even hiding are everything, and the button mashers are gonna see poor DPS if they don't know where to shoot from.