When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[GrandMike]

Yes I can.

 

Said a little train that could.

 

You are best pvpah EVAH!

 

And we, of course, believe you!

Edited April 2, 2012 by GrandMike

[Zintair]

Hint: It's not going to disappear when Tanksin is easily the best class to solo Ranked Q as.

 

Being able to put up 500k+ dmg, 100-200k prot and 100k healing all in a single warzone tends draw people to that class/spec. Which is why 90% of all Shadow/Sins are running around in tank stance.

 

This amuses me considering your name is "The Lakers". Pot meet Kettle?

 

Also you have no idea what your talking about.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Zintair

[Battilea]

Where's the proof that an Assassin has more health than a Marauder when both are in DPS gear? Just because you say it's so doesn't make it so. Let's see some proof of that. If it turns out to be true, it's a gear itemization issue since health is based on endurance.

 

An assassin would. Assassin's Training adds 5 end per rank and will be rank 5 at 50, so that's 25 end. And 3 ranks of the T2 Shroud of Darkness talent can add a further +3% end.

 

So, with the same gear, an assassin ought to have more hp.

 

That said, for someone to mention that as a balance issue is laughable, grasping at straws.

[Zintair]

An assassin would. Assassin's Training adds 5 end per rank and will be rank 5 at 50, so that's 25 end. And 3 ranks of the T2 Shroud of Darkness talent can add a further +3% end.

 

So, with the same gear, an assassin ought to have more hp.

 

That said, for someone to mention that as a balance issue is laughable, grasping at straws.

 

Without the Tank gear a Shadow has around 16-18k depending on the lvl of gear and mods.

 

With tank gear they are more like 19-22k.

 

And yeah what a scrubby straw grasper argument that is

[Astarica]

Not sure why people are even arguing about class HPs. A Merc always have more HP than any other character (before the class buff) and a Sorc always has least if both are wearing their class items. Assassins are about above average so far as default HPs go for DPS classes. I don't know if that's supposed to be an advantage but it's not something up to debate.

 

Force Shroud is pretty much the strongest defensive CD in the game for PvP, especially with impending nerf to 100% Force Camo. To put it this way, if you traded Force Shroud for Undying Rage it'd be a massive nerf to the Assassin, and yet Undying Rage is generally thought of as overpowered. There are 3 classes who literally cannot do anything about Force Shroud, and other classes need to switch their attack types immediately because even weapon based classes have multiple strong Force/Tech attacks, not to mention the Darkness Assassin has 16% evade versus weapon based attacks.

[Neamhan]

Let's start with the 1v1 aspect first for Tankasins.

 

Due to Force Shroud there are 3 matchups that are autowins: Sorcerers, Mercs, and Operatives. These class are just so heavily dependent on Tech/Force damage that they might as well roll over and die whenever you use Force Shroud. A Merc's TM stacks may end up causing you to lose your next 1v1 after you killed him though, so that puts Mercs at around the 3rd best class against Tankasin since you might lose to someone else after you killed him.

 

Let's not forget that Force Shroud lasts 3 global cooldowns. Sorcerers have problems with Assassins because they can't spike damage, not because of Force Shroud. Their forte is CC and kiting, which is difficult to do against an Assassin. Operatives can spike damage but can't sustain any. I honestly think Bioware doesn't know what to do with dps Operatives right now. Mercs can actually do surprisingly well against an Assassin. They just have 0 defenses, which will get even worse in 1.2.

 

Snipers gets killed by the fact that Force Speed removes root. They can never create separation and they can't win without it.

 

People really underestimate Snipers. I expected my Gunslinger to be terrible based on the complaints but I've been having a lot of fun with it. Things you should know: Snipers get two roots, so if you force speed one you can get them with the other. Leg Shot is also on a shorter cooldown than Force Speed and you also get two knockbacks, a short ranged stun, a long ranged mez and CC immunity for part of the time. A Sniper can also pop an Assassin out of Vanish if they act quickly. A Sniper that gets the drop on an Assassin can be very dangerous and if the terrain is favorable, quite deadly. I've killed more than one Assassin with my Gunslinger, much to their surprise.

 

Jugg/PT DPS isn't as lopsided but the fact you do comparable damage and is way harder to kill than they are means the fight is solidly in your favor.

 

Juggs are a slugfest but the tanks just don't have the damage output, plus one of their high damage moves can be interrupted (but not after 1.2). I don't think I've ever fought a DPS Guardian. I know they can put out a lot of damage (more than most give them credit for) but I have no idea how they perform against Assassins. A Pyro PT can kill an Assassin very quickly, but it depends a lot on RNG.

 

Marauder is the closest mirror matchup. All his CDs in theory has counters by yours but since you're the hardest to kill class in the game, you may not have all your CDs (because you presumably used them to keep yourself alive from an earlier fight). If both characters have all their CDs and use all of them, the Assassin will win. In realistic situations this can go either way, though in 1.2 it'd be more in favor of Assassin with Force Camo nerfed (this CD is generally responsible for a loss against a Marauder).

 

Equal skill and geared Marauder/Assassin is a toss-up. It depends on who makes a mistake, or can fake the other into wasting a cooldown. I would very much like to see how the buffed Carnage Marauder will do after 1.2, since they don't have to worry about a Force Shroud cleansing dots like an Annihilation Mara does.

 

Now you move to teamplay. Well, Force Shroud is strong against focus fire. I can escape from grappled into 20 guys in Ilum where I am the only guy they could focus fire, and not really sure you can expect anything better than that. For movement-based CCs, Force Speed + Force Pull gives you as much protection from these ability as can be reasonably expected. Your DPS range is 10m, unlike 4m for most melees. And of course Assassins have all kinds of teamplay goodies, like AE snare (Wither), taunt, and guard. You can easily argue an Assassin is much stronger in team play than even 1on1, and we're pretty darn good at 1on1 too.

 

An Assassin can escape being focused easier than either of the other two tanks, but only once. In objective based WZs that will buy you a small bit of time in Alderaan or Voidstar (it's obviously useless in Huttball if you're carrying the ball). When it comes to tanking damage, Assassins are the worst of the three. That's just simple math, and it gets worse as you get more combatants on you. Force Shroud will get you 3 GCDs but that's it for your defensive cooldowns. You can pop Deflection but so much bypasses defense it's really not going to help you much. Here's where those Guardian cooldowns that everyone says are so terrible are actually nice, since they also add extra DR. Where they're somewhat lackluster in duels, they certainly help out the healer trying to heal you in group combat.

 

I'm not trying to imply that Assassins are bad, mind you. Just that they aren't the be all, end all that some people seem to think they are.

[Zintair]

Not sure why people are even arguing about class HPs. A Merc always have more HP than any other character (before the class buff) and a Sorc always has least if both are wearing their class items. Assassins are about above average so far as default HPs go for DPS classes. I don't know if that's supposed to be an advantage but it's not something up to debate.

 

Force Shroud is pretty much the strongest defensive CD in the game for PvP, especially with impending nerf to 100% Force Camo. To put it this way, if you traded Force Shroud for Undying Rage it'd be a massive nerf to the Assassin, and yet Undying Rage is generally thought of as overpowered. There are 3 classes who literally cannot do anything about Force Shroud, and other classes need to switch their attack types immediately because even weapon based classes have multiple strong Force/Tech attacks, not to mention the Darkness Assassin has 16% evade versus weapon based attacks.

 

Yeah but its 5 seconds of invuln.

 

I've been CC chain locked for 3x as long.

 

I've had Force Chokes bypass Resolve

 

I've had Force Leap still root and stun and carry the enemy to my player with Resilience up which is completely broken.

 

 

It goes both ways. Shadow and Assassin are balanced. Period.

[Neamhan]

An assassin would. Assassin's Training adds 5 end per rank and will be rank 5 at 50, so that's 25 end. And 3 ranks of the T2 Shroud of Darkness talent can add a further +3% end.

 

So, with the same gear, an assassin ought to have more hp.

 

That said, for someone to mention that as a balance issue is laughable, grasping at straws.

 

25 end is 250 health. 3% end at 20k health comes out to less than 500 health. So yeah, less than 1k health if you're dumb enough to blow more than the one throw away point in the +end talent is indeed grasping at straws.

[Neamhan]

Force Shroud is pretty much the strongest defensive CD in the game for PvP, especially with impending nerf to 100% Force Camo. To put it this way, if you traded Force Shroud for Undying Rage it'd be a massive nerf to the Assassin, and yet Undying Rage is generally thought of as overpowered. There are 3 classes who literally cannot do anything about Force Shroud, and other classes need to switch their attack types immediately because even weapon based classes have multiple strong Force/Tech attacks, not to mention the Darkness Assassin has 16% evade versus weapon based attacks.

 

If you swap Force Shroud and Undying Rage I would leap for joy, since it would be an enormous buff in PvE. Even in PvP it would be as much of a nerf as you're implying, mostly because it would make the Vanish harder to use. And frankly, if you're saving Force Shroud just to Vanish you aren't using it well anyway.

 

By the way, the same thing that makes Force Shroud so powerful in PvP is the reason the Defense and Shield stats are so terrible in PvP. So those three classes who literally cannot do anything about Force Shroud also do the best against tanks in general when Force Shroud isn't up, since they can ignore Defense/Shield. It's a tradeoff.

[Astarica]

People really underestimate Snipers. I expected my Gunslinger to be terrible based on the complaints but I've been having a lot of fun with it. Things you should know: Snipers get two roots, so if you force speed one you can get them with the other. Leg Shot is also on a shorter cooldown than Force Speed and you also get two knockbacks, a short ranged stun, a long ranged mez and CC immunity for part of the time. A Sniper can also pop an Assassin out of Vanish if they act quickly. A Sniper that gets the drop on an Assassin can be very dangerous and if the terrain is favorable, quite deadly. I've killed more than one Assassin with my Gunslinger, much to their surprise.

 

An Assassin can escape being focused easier than either of the other two tanks, but only once. In objective based WZs that will buy you a small bit of time in Alderaan or Voidstar (it's obviously useless in Huttball if you're carrying the ball). When it comes to tanking damage, Assassins are the worst of the three. That's just simple math, and it gets worse as you get more combatants on you. Force Shroud will get you 3 GCDs but that's it for your defensive cooldowns. You can pop Deflection but so much bypasses defense it's really not going to help you much. Here's where those Guardian cooldowns that everyone says are so terrible are actually nice, since they also add extra DR. Where they're somewhat lackluster in duels, they certainly help out the healer trying to heal you in group combat.

 

KB are only usable at melee range and you'd have no reason to be at melee range with a Sniper. Since a Sniper basically can't move you can sit at a spot exactly 9m away from him. He can root you but that'd actually have no effect to your DPS. He can KB you but it won't hit you. Yes if you walked up to melee him you'd have problem after you get knocked back twice and rooted twice, but any other melee class would get owned in such a situation, and you really should not have meleed him in the first place.

 

You should never focus on the tank for any extended period of time besides while one is carrying the Huttball. Survival while carrying the Huttball is all about movement abilities. Nobody actually carries the ball from midfield to endzone by just walking and toughing out 6 guys focus fired on them. Juggs have an advantage here in mobility and this is fairly well known. If you try to overpower the tank first in Alderran/Voidstar you will always lose. It only makes sense to overpower the tank when there's no one else left and at that point nobody's going to survive longer than about 5 seconds anyway.

[Astarica]

If you swap Force Shroud and Undying Rage I would leap for joy, since it would be an enormous buff in PvE. Even in PvP it would be as much of a nerf as you're implying, mostly because it would make the Vanish harder to use. And frankly, if you're saving Force Shroud just to Vanish you aren't using it well anyway.

 

By the way, the same thing that makes Force Shroud so powerful in PvP is the reason the Defense and Shield stats are so terrible in PvP. So those three classes who literally cannot do anything about Force Shroud also do the best against tanks in general when Force Shroud isn't up, since they can ignore Defense/Shield. It's a tradeoff.

 

Do people think Undying Rage doesn't have a 50% current health cost just because Marauders only use it when they're about to die?

 

Consider you can beat classes that have trouble handling Force Shroud with well over 50% of your health left when they die, there's no way switching FS for Undying Rage can be better since you cannot end up with more than 50% health after using Undying Rage.

 

For PvE someone still has to heal you after you axe 50% of your health. A strong collatoral damage attack will usually do at least 50% fo your health, so to be safe you'd have to stay somewhere in the 80% range, which means the cost of Undying Rage is 40% of your health. On the other hand the cost of Force Shorud is 0% of your health.

 

Not to mention Force Shroud can be used twice as often as Undying Rage, or that most strong PvE collatoral damage are still Force/Tech based. Even the swipe from Bonethrasher or pounce from Gharj counts as Force/Tech.

[Neamhan]

KB are only usable at melee range and you'd have no reason to be at melee range with a Sniper. Since a Sniper basically can't move you can sit at a spot exactly 9m away from him. He can root you but that'd actually have no effect to your DPS. He can KB you but it won't hit you. Yes if you walked up to melee him you'd have problem after you get knocked back twice and rooted twice, but any other melee class would get owned in such a situation, and you really should not have meleed him in the first place.

 

You should never focus on the tank for any extended period of time besides while one is carrying the Huttball. Survival while carrying the Huttball is all about movement abilities. Nobody actually carries the ball from midfield to endzone by just walking and toughing out 6 guys focus fired on them. Juggs have an advantage here in mobility and this is fairly well known. If you try to overpower the tank first in Alderran/Voidstar you will always lose. It only makes sense to overpower the tank when there's no one else left and at that point nobody's going to survive longer than about 5 seconds anyway.

 

The Knockback on Aimed Shot works out to 10m. And the cover mechanic has no GCD so it's not as hard to reposition yourself as people make it out to be. The only time you don't want to is if it breaks Hunker Down early, but even then there are exceptions.

 

I hope you aren't implying one should never attack a tank in group PvP. It's certainly a valid tactic (though not the only tactic) in a tank/healer guard situation to CC/interrupt the healer and focus down the guard.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Neamhan

[Neamhan]

Do people think Undying Rage doesn't have a 50% current health cost just because Marauders only use it when they're about to die?

 

Consider you can beat classes that have trouble handling Force Shroud with well over 50% of your health left when they die, there's no way switching FS for Undying Rage can be better since you cannot end up with more than 50% health after using Undying Rage.

 

For PvE someone still has to heal you after you axe 50% of your health. A strong collatoral damage attack will usually do at least 50% fo your health, so to be safe you'd have to stay somewhere in the 80% range, which means the cost of Undying Rage is 40% of your health. On the other hand the cost of Force Shorud is 0% of your health.

 

Not to mention Force Shroud can be used twice as often as Undying Rage, or that most strong PvE collatoral damage are still Force/Tech based. Even the swipe from Bonethrasher or pounce from Gharj counts as Force/Tech.

 

Timing is everything. And just because you want to keep your health high doesn't mean you always can which is where Undying Rage is so nice. That Bioware keeps coding so much as Force/Tech is a mistake they need to correct, because it completely screws tanks in general and it's why Assassins are regarded as the squishiest tank in PvE. Without Defense/Shield it all boils down to raw DR, which of the three tanks is lowest for Assassins.

[AMKSED]

Why do people continue to call 31/0/10 hybrid?

 

Would you rather we spec'd 41/0/0?

 

Scrub trollers

 

 

Hybrid spec != Gearing

 

 

I can't wait for Rateds and all this BS disappears.

 

Look up the definition of hybrid. Just because we're using the term in an MMO doesn't deem it something completely different.

[Krytycal]

As someone who's PvPed with enough 50s to know better: both operatives and marauders have the tools to kill assassins in 1vs1s.

[Krytycal]

The Knockback on Aimed Shot works out to 10m. And the cover mechanic has no GCD so it's not as hard to reposition yourself as people make it out to be. The only time you don't want to is if it breaks Hunker Down early, but even then there are exceptions.

 

I hope you aren't implying one should never attack a tank in group PvP. It's certainly a valid tactic (though not the only tactic) in a tank/healer guard situation to CC/interrupt the healer and focus down the guard.

 

In 1.2 I suspect Lethality snipers are going to have a much easier time fighting assassins now that DoTs will apply a secondary DoT when cleansed. Meaning the impending cull will still hit like a truck.

[tragiK-tfb]

So I read these threads all the time and it seems the majority of people whining and crying are either uneducated, unskilled, or inexperienced with game mechanics and resolve bar management. Granted there are a few with valid points/concerns over certain issues so I'm not knocking everybody here don't worry. But I would like to weigh in on the conversation and while some of this has certainly been said before some of it may be new to you. I myself rarely consider much OP and instead think of ways to counter classes current strengths (subject to change depending on current patch).

With that being said I would like you to consider when reading my statements that it's never about how many buttons you have to press or what does crazy damage and what doesn't, it's about WHEN you press those buttons and WHERE you choose to position yourself according to whats happening around you. ( situational awareness I KNOW crazy) Proper play, knowing ALL classes, and teamwork overcome a lot of what people consider overpowered. In a PUG setting this is obviously not always something you can rely on.

 

*Tanksin's are considered op because of the amount of utility they have when running the ball in Huttball ( shroud , speed , knock back, stun) and because they put up decent damage on the scoreboard ( mostly due to aoe damage and the fact they are hard to kill ie. more time alive=more dps ). If anything damage reduction from shielding should be tweaked. Other than that, its a niche spec that can be countered by proper play/teamwork. I personally ignore tanks until last and just control them or isolate them from their healers significantly reducing their effectiveness ( guard 15m range). Again proper play/teamwork.

 

*Hybrid Sin's : Internal damage burst ( 15s cd 50 force , 25 force talented ) Self-healing, increased defenses. Its a pretty solid build TBH you gain sustainability/control/burst. But, you still aren't going to 2 shot anybody and it certainly requires a little more brain power than pure tank. My real problem with both hybrid and pure tanksin's is that between shielding and self-healing it promotes bad play in that you aren't punished sorely for making a mistake. But let's be honest here, no hybrid sin , given equivalent gear/skill is topping damage versus other dps (overall). Again I feel like a lot of the problem here is maybe some people just don't know how to counter them or are playing a class that sins counter. It's an MMO its never gonna be perfect at any single point, if you're a gamer you know when you have a class system there will always be issues with balance.

 

*Deception : This is and always will be my preferred spec, it is geared towards controlling and DPSing a SINGLE target. Overall I think in its current state its a pretty balanced spec. You won't be topping damage charts necessarily with the amount of AOE that goes around from other classes. But you should realize your job is to kill/control healers and ball carriers. Good burst/stealth utility ( the ability to get in and out of combat quickly ) are your tools. My only concern is mobility at times, while speed and shroud offer A LOT , with certain map layouts ( Huttball ) a newer player unfamiliar with positioning can be compromised and without a REAL GAP CLOSER, other classes can potentially outshine you here. But for the most part well balanced given equivalent skill/gear, I don't have problems with any class 1v1 really ( yes I know not a 1v1 game ).

 

P.S Hybrid and Darkness Specs gain little to nothing from Stealth, being as they aren't talented into improved stealth you can pull them easily enough. Also healing reduction from "Cloak" pretty much makes it useless being that you can use spike out of stealth anyways.

 

Nothing crazy or game changing in here, just my two cents.

 

And just for general knowledge purposes since I'm sure it will be asked:

 

Tragik - 50 Sin Deception 2/31/8

The Crucible Pits - West Coast PvP

Server 4th Empire 50

Server 5th Battlemaster ( pre-Ilum/valor bug)

I also have and play a 50 sorc ( hybrid ) 43 Jugg ( vengeance )

Guild: Back-Peddlers

 

Yes I've tried almost every spec you can think of, yes I have optimal gear and stats for every spec, yes i remod out of accuracy because its awful.

[cupofwater]

Hint: It's not going to disappear when Tanksin is easily the best class to solo Ranked Q as.

 

Being able to put up 500k+ dmg, 100-200k prot and 100k healing all in a single warzone tends draw people to that class/spec. Which is why 90% of all Shadow/Sins are running around in tank stance.

 

Why do people care so much about stats? First of all no player can consistently get this amount of damage/prot/healing in every game. Solo queue there is absolutely no way. I'm waiting for people to realize top total damage has no impact on actually winning the game. Honestly where did you get these statistics? This happens 1/100 games when the tank assassin has 2 healers constantly on him and a centurion geared opposing team that is constantly allowing themselves to be aoed.

 

Any player getting high stats like that is because the other team did a terrible job. Any Aoe class for example can easily put up 500k-600k damage if the other team groups up constantly and zergs everywhere. Extremely high damage normally means the other team was doing something wrong.

Edited April 2, 2012 by cupofwater

[AMKSED]

Why do people care so much about stats? First of all no player can consistently get this amount of damage/prot/healing in every game. Solo queue there is absolutely no way. I'm waiting for people to realize top total damage has no impact on actually winning the game. Honestly where did you get these statistics? This happens 1/100 games when the tank assassin has 2 healers constantly on him and a centurion geared opposing team that is constantly allowing themselves to be aoed.

 

Any player getting high stats like that is because the other team did a terrible job. Any Aoe class for example can easily put up 500k-600k damage if the other team groups up constantly and zergs everywhere. Extremely high damage normally means the other team was doing something wrong.

 

I can usually get those numbers if it's a decent match, but if we just steamroll them then no, my stats aren't going to be that high.

[Seravis]

It is pretty simple why people think Assassins are a bit over the top right now, and with good reason.

 

They are almost the best at everything, and have no real weakness unlike the rest of the classes. Lets look at some of the weaknesses other dps classes have that can be exploited.

 

Operative-Super squishy melee. All that needs to be said about them.

Marauders-Pure melee that is easily kited. (has 0 damage and 0 energy regen outside of melee combat) as well as no knockback/push/guard/taunt/etc to save healers.

Powertechs- No escape ability with average survivability(and their hybrid spec is being nerfed for the same reason people are calling Assassins OP for. Doing everything too well with no weakness)

Sorcerer-Terrible burst damage, and squishy.

Snipers-No escapes, permanently rooted, squishy. put 2-3 dps on one and they drop even with heals.

Mercenary-Shutdown by any interrupt spamming melee, and have no real escape ability.

Juggernauts-Pure melee with no escape and average survivability.

Assassin-

 

Now it wouldn't be so bad for a class to not have any glaring weaknesses, but that usually comes at the cost of being lackluster at most things. In the case of tankassins they are pretty much the best at everything, and have no glaring weakness.

 

 

They are arguably the hardest dps class to actually kill in PVP.

 

They have one of the highest controlled bursts in the game. That can be done every ~10 seconds.

 

They have the highest amount of utility in the game between pull/guard/taunt/stun/2nd stun/mez/force speed/interrupt/stealth/vanish/self cleanse/aoe slow/knockback . Did I miss some? Name any other class that has that many game changing abilities. Closest is a sorcerer and they pay for it by being super squishy and having terrible burst damage.

 

They are basically unkiteable as well as having good damage outside of melee range. Being kited and having terrible utility is what "balances"(some would argue they are still OP) marauders having high damage, and high survivability. If they are even remotely overpowered than Assassins are completely broken.

 

The fact is that Assassins are pretty much tied for being the best at everything, and with no drawbacks for being the best. You want someone to guard a healer, provide huge burst damage, having incredible amounts of CC and taunts, and be nigh unkillable? Maybe you want a class to also be able to be the 2nd best huttball carrier(and killer) in the game, and the best node defender as well? Why would I want to bring anything other than healers and tankassins for pvp?

 

 

It's really quite simple. Assassins NEED some kind of drawback/weakness that can be exploited in PVP like the rest of the classes have.

[Neamhan]

I can usually get those numbers if it's a decent match, but if we just steamroll them then no, my stats aren't going to be that high.

 

Still with the vague, nonspecific numbers and subjective 'It's too high because I said so'.

 

How much damage is too much? Relative to what? Who is definiting 'too much'? What's the actual dps of an Assassin in DPS and Tank gear? How much of it is just AoE splash damage? What's the dps of a Guardian and Vanguard so we can compare all the tanks? What about the DPS of the some other classes like Infiltration specced Shadows or any Marauder or Sniper?

 

What percentage of damage should a Tank do relative to DPS in general? Combat logs are available on the test server now so let's see some numbers to back up all these claims that Tank specced Assassins are 'overpowered'.

 

The only 'proof' offered so far are a few outlier screenshots (which you can find for many classes) and an assurance that you can 'do it all the time'. Sorry, post up some real numbers if you have a claim you want to prove.

[Ravenolf]

I really don't know, but it is certainly worth discussing in more detail.

[Neamhan]

They have the highest amount of utility in the game between pull/guard/taunt/stun/2nd stun/mez/force speed/interrupt/stealth/vanish/self cleanse/aoe slow/knockback . Did I miss some? Name any other class that has that many game changing abilities. Closest is a sorcerer and they pay for it by being super squishy and having terrible burst damage.

 

I'm not going to address the rest of your post because it's made up entirely of subjective opinion with no actual numbers to back them up. But I will address this list because it's so easy to counter.

 

So for utility on a tank class, how about guard, taunt, stun, 2nd stun, 3rd stun, 4TH STUN, AoE mez, leap, second leap, reset on first leap, faster-than-Assassin interrupt, AoE slow, knockback, +40% DR, 2nd +25% DR vs tech and force, enemy armor debuff. And on top of all that, higher DR in general. Oh, and if they want to go hybrid they can also get yet another +20% DR and immunity to CC for 4 seconds.

 

That class is the much maligned Guardian, which is getting buffed by the way. So today you learned that tanks in general have a lot of utility. Are you saying Guardians need to be nerfed, too?

[AMKSED]

I'm not going to address the rest of your post because it's made up entirely of subjective opinion with no actual numbers to back them up. But I will address this list because it's so easy to counter.

 

So for utility on a tank class, how about guard, taunt, stun, 2nd stun, 3rd stun, 4TH STUN, AoE mez, leap, second leap, reset on first leap, faster-than-Assassin interrupt, AoE slow, knockback, +40% DR, 2nd +25% DR vs tech and force, enemy armor debuff. And on top of all that, higher DR in general. Oh, and if they want to go hybrid they can also get yet another +20% DR and immunity to CC for 4 seconds.

 

That class is the much maligned Guardian, which is getting buffed by the way. So today you learned that tanks in general have a lot of utility. Are you saying Guardians need to be nerfed, too?

 

Yet Guardians don't even perform even close to Shadows in terms of their hybrid-ness.

[Neamhan]

Yet Guardians don't even perform even close to Shadows in terms of their hybrid-ness.

 

Opinion. Prove it.