When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[OmoveAbril]

It is pretty simple why people think Assassins are a bit over the top right now, and with good reason.

 

They are almost the best at everything, and have no real weakness unlike the rest of the classes. Lets look at some of the weaknesses other dps classes have that can be exploited.

 

Operative-Super squishy melee. All that needs to be said about them.

Marauders-Pure melee that is easily kited. (has 0 damage and 0 energy regen outside of melee combat) as well as no knockback/push/guard/taunt/etc to save healers.

Powertechs- No escape ability with average survivability(and their hybrid spec is being nerfed for the same reason people are calling Assassins OP for. Doing everything too well with no weakness)

Sorcerer-Terrible burst damage, and squishy.

Snipers-No escapes, permanently rooted, squishy. put 2-3 dps on one and they drop even with heals.

Mercenary-Shutdown by any interrupt spamming melee, and have no real escape ability.

Juggernauts-Pure melee with no escape and average survivability.

Assassin-

 

Now it wouldn't be so bad for a class to not have any glaring weaknesses, but that usually comes at the cost of being lackluster at most things. In the case of tankassins they are pretty much the best at everything, and have no glaring weakness.

 

 

They are arguably the hardest dps class to actually kill in PVP.

 

They have one of the highest controlled bursts in the game. That can be done every ~10 seconds.

 

They have the highest amount of utility in the game between pull/guard/taunt/stun/2nd stun/mez/force speed/interrupt/stealth/vanish/self cleanse/aoe slow/knockback . Did I miss some? Name any other class that has that many game changing abilities. Closest is a sorcerer and they pay for it by being super squishy and having terrible burst damage.

 

They are basically unkiteable as well as having good damage outside of melee range. Being kited and having terrible utility is what "balances"(some would argue they are still OP) marauders having high damage, and high survivability. If they are even remotely overpowered than Assassins are completely broken.

 

The fact is that Assassins are pretty much tied for being the best at everything, and with no drawbacks for being the best. You want someone to guard a healer, provide huge burst damage, having incredible amounts of CC and taunts, and be nigh unkillable? Maybe you want a class to also be able to be the 2nd best huttball carrier(and killer) in the game, and the best node defender as well? Why would I want to bring anything other than healers and tankassins for pvp?

 

 

It's really quite simple. Assassins NEED some kind of drawback/weakness that can be exploited in PVP like the rest of the classes have.

 

They Do have a weakness, Force/ Tech Dmg that is internal/ elemental in damage type. Most Range Classes have a spec that deals in this. THE COUNTER TO ALL TANKS is the special damage caster. If the fight did not start in melee range or 10m rage that 5 sec of immunity will not make up for the damage done during closing the gap.

 

Well you could use force stun! wrong! we wont that burns up way to much CC on the bar and we need that to interupt a cast. (1min CD on it) we wont waste it as a gap closer. We could stealth and close in but in this fight i might wanna use it to wait the CD on my 10% heal, force regen or my relics/ temp buffs to come of CD to make a final push, and even more wait for Resilience to come off CD so i can heal up and pop buffs w/o worry. Force pull him to you? nope if i get CC'd and he pust some good distance then well i need it as an anti-kite tool. Force lift? nope 2-3 sec cast that could set a tech/force user up for a big move i dont want to see.

 

so 30m stun not an vaild gap closer, in combat stealth? no to crucial of a ability to use as a gap closer in a fight with a Tech/ Force player. lift takes to much time, Waste my 5 sec immune to close gap? well that 5 sec of me not doing any dmg just ot close gap again this is used when we need to not get inturupted, most offten during a 10% and 12% heal combo along with 2 heal ticks from stance.

 

Our counters, more often than not if we dont see them...will kill us if we dont have a healer!, but we often stay close to our friend. but if we look at Shadow tank in a 1v1 with no healer well...i would have to counter and play perfectly or im foder.

 

L2P, i dont even bother with those specs, unless the target my healer or a low health DPS. Its a fight that strains the resorce of my healer to see me live... and well if hes healing me too much then DPS will die or perhaps he might even with guard on. Me i will de if it mean i can buy time for the grp.

 

ppl need to L2P

[ShadowOfVey]

Simple.

 

It's a proven fact that all the skilled players chose assassins, while all the noobs picked other classes.

 

</worldofroguecraft> =P

[mausty]

I play assassin. I don't spec hybrid darkness, i feel it is overpowered in it's current state. To fix it i would do 2 things:

 

1. The Energize talent either needs to be completely reworked or made the 31 point talent.

 

2. The claws of Decay talent needs to be moved higher in the madness tree.

 

That would end the Hybrid spec for good.

[Astarica]

Darkness spec Assassins starts with 19% internal damage reduction assuming you remembered to buff yourself with your class buff, compared to near 0% for all other non SI ACs.

 

If this is somehow weak I guess most classes instantly die to internal damage types.

 

Not to mention internal damage types tend to be all Force/Tech based and gets stopped by Force Shroud. As a class, Assassins starts with above average HPs too, not significantly more than the average but every bit helps against damage you can't mitigate.

[TheLakers]

Opinion. Prove it.

 

It's a fact. Plenty of data has been posted on the matter. Just because you're too lazy to find it doesn't make it an opinion.

 

Tanksins put out DPS numbers that pure dps classes can even rarely reach. Tanksins out dmg tank Guardians by a factor 4-5 in any given warzone depending on how geared they are.. all while having the most utility of any class, better defensive cooldowns/surivability than any other tank class and a ridiculous self heal.

Edited April 2, 2012 by TheLakers

[Astarica]

I play assassin. I don't spec hybrid darkness, i feel it is overpowered in it's current state. To fix it i would do 2 things:

 

1. The Energize talent either needs to be completely reworked or made the 31 point talent.

 

2. The claws of Decay talent needs to be moved higher in the madness tree.

 

That would end the Hybrid spec for good.

 

Energize/Claw of Decay is pretty much the only thing stopping WZs from being overrun by Wither because a lot of people think these two talents put together somehow makes up for Wither. If you remove these two talents or reposition them, people would've no choice but to get Wither.

[upzie]

I play assassin. I don't spec hybrid darkness, i feel it is overpowered in it's current state. To fix it i would do 2 things:

 

1. The Energize talent either needs to be completely reworked or made the 31 point talent.

 

2. The claws of Decay talent needs to be moved higher in the madness tree.

 

That would end the Hybrid spec for good.

 

Sry but this just reaks of l2p.

[Tiek]

its definitely the strongest assassin pvp style... but if you're going to nerf it based only on pvp performance then the other 2 trees need to be buffed otherwise you're going to have a class with no decent pvp viability.

[KhealThar]

I'd like to know where people are fighting all these Shadow tanks that are apparently overpowered? I play a Jugg on the server the Fatman and I rarely see any assassins/shadows in 50 PVP.

 

 

If you're referring to sub 50 pvp, that's a whole different monster because without expertise gear you basically have to be tank spec to even SURVIVE classes like marauders.

 

Most of the people rerolling shadows and marauders most likely won't make it to 50 before realizing they're not as overpowered as everyone claims they are and go back to their sorcerer's/mercenaries.

[Neamhan]

Darkness spec Assassins starts with 19% internal damage reduction assuming you remembered to buff yourself with your class buff, compared to near 0% for all other non SI ACs.

 

Wrong.

 

Darkness spec Assassins get 11% internal DR via Dark Charge and talents, plus another 10% from the buff.

 

Shield Tech Powertech gets 9% internal DR via Ion Gas Cylinder and talents, and will have access to the 10% buff through Legacy if not from teammates.

 

Immortal Juggernaut is a bit low in this regard, with only 4% internal DR but like everyone will have access to the 10% buff through Legacy, as well as from teammates.

 

21% vs 19% vs 14%. However, both Powertechs and Juggernauts will have more than 10% greater 'standard' DR (kinetic/energy).

 

What was your point again?

[TheLakers]

I'd like to know where people are fighting all these Shadow tanks that are apparently overpowered? I play a Jugg on the server the Fatman and I rarely see any assassins/shadows in 50 PVP.

 

Yeah, right.

 

As republic, I see an average of 5 Inquisitors every warzone. Usually 3-4 of those are Tanksins. The only thing rare is actually seeing an Assassin spec'd DPS (i mean why would you when you're averaging 300-400k dmg a warzone in tank stance, pulling people into fires while running around with god mode cooldowns).

 

Shadows are all over the place in RvR huttball. There isn't a single class I see more of, though plenty of fresh 50 Sents are pouring in every day.

Edited April 2, 2012 by TheLakers

[Neamhan]

It's a fact. Plenty of data has been posted on the matter. Just because you're too lazy to find it doesn't make it an opinion.

 

Tanksins put out DPS numbers that pure dps classes can even rarely reach. Tanksins out dmg tank Guardians by a factor 4-5 in any given warzone depending on how geared they are.. all while having the most utility of any class, better defensive cooldowns/surivability than any other tank class and a ridiculous self heal.

 

You are the one asserting that Darkness Assassins are overpowered, therefor it is up to you to prove it. If you don't care to provide any actual data, then it is in fact you being lazy.

 

So what is the actual dps? Not screenshots of aberrations, actual dps from parses of the combat logs available on the test server. Let's see them. According to you, if a tank specced Assassin is doing '5 times' the damage of a Guardian, that means the actual dps numbers should be something like 2500 dps vs 500 dps, or 1500 dps to 300 dps or something else equally ridiculous. So let's see those actual, real numbers.

 

You won't post anything like that because you can't, you're just talking out of your rear.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Neamhan

[TheLakers]

You are the one asserting that Darkness Assassins are overpowered, therefor it is up to you to prove it. If you don't care to provide any actual data, then it is in fact you being lazy.

 

Facts have already been posted, try reading the thread.

 

Not screenshots of aberrations,

 

Those screenshots are facts. If you choose to live ignorance, that's your choice. Aberrations?

 

You won't post anything like that because you can't, you're just taking out of your rear.

 

Sounds like you rolled the flavor of the month (more like flavor of every month) class and are in a pretty hefty state of denial.

[Jarfunkz]

Wrong.

 

Darkness spec Assassins get 11% internal DR via Dark Charge and talents, plus another 10% from the buff.

 

Shield Tech Powertech gets 9% internal DR via Ion Gas Cylinder and talents, and will have access to the 10% buff through Legacy if not from teammates.

 

Immortal Juggernaut is a bit low in this regard, with only 4% internal DR but like everyone will have access to the 10% buff through Legacy, as well as from teammates.

 

21% vs 19% vs 14%. However, both Powertechs and Juggernauts will have more than 10% greater 'standard' DR (kinetic/energy).

 

What was your point again?

 

but pt/jugg do not have the added defensive rolls that sin does...

[TheLakers]

 

Immortal Juggernaut is a bit low in this regard, with only 4% internal DR but like everyone will have access to the 10% buff through Legacy, as well as from teammates.

 

Buffs through legacy is a meaningless discussion when talking about class balance.

 

21% vs 19% vs 14%. However, both Powertechs and Juggernauts will have more than 10% greater 'standard' DR (kinetic/energy).

 

Except which damage type is most used in PvP (you do realize you're in the PvP forum, right)? Not to mention, Assasin's God mode cooldown that is only 45 seconds with talents.

 

 

So thanks for pointing out another aspect of how overpowered the class/spec is.

[Neamhan]

Facts have already been posted, try reading the thread.

 

Those screenshots are facts. If you choose to live ignorance, that's your choice. Aberrations?

 

I could post of screenshot of a football team that scored 70 points in a game. That means that football team averages 70 points a game, right?

 

Sounds like you rolled the flavor of the month (more like flavor of every month) class and are in a pretty hefty state of denial.

 

I've rolled my Shadow on day 1 of the game's release, and have been specced Kinetic the entire time. Even when people said they 'sucked'. What do you play?

[Neamhan]

but pt/jugg do not have the added defensive rolls that sin does...

 

Do you mean the Defense stat? Or also the Shield stat as well? PTs have very low Defense but high Shield. Juggs have Defense on par with Assassins and iirc higher shield without Dark Ward up but less with Dark Ward up. Which is why Assassins make the poorest tank for groups of enemies when it comes to mitigation.

[Neamhan]

Buffs through legacy is a meaningless discussion when talking about class balance.

 

Assuming you don't have a buff in a PvP or raid setting is also meaningless. When the devs balance classes they assume all the classes have access to all four group buffs. It would be stupid to balance any other way, so it would be silly to have a discussion about what class has access to which buff. Legacy was mentioned because anyone can have access to any buff they want even solo once 1.2 hits, if they want to put forth the effort to get it.

 

Except which damage type is most used in PvP (you do realize you're in the PvP forum, right)? Not to mention, Assasin's God mode cooldown that is only 45 seconds with talents.

 

Sorry, Kinetic/Energy attacks are still more common than Elemental/Internal. But for the sake of argument, let's say every single attack in the game is Internal. If a PT and an Assassin both take 20,000 damage, the Assassin will end up absorbing 400 more of it. Oh no!

 

And when the Assassin uses Force Shroud, use a non-Force/Tech attack. Problem solved.

 

So thanks for pointing out another aspect of how overpowered the class/spec is.

 

Thanks for showing you still have no idea what you're talking about.

[Astarica]

The only time a long duration mitigation CD even comes into consideration is if you're say running the Huttball from midfield to endzone, except neither Jugg nor PT would do this because they have Charge. The few rare times I caught them actually running the ball, they get focused fired by 6 guys and die immediately too like anyone else.

 

This is a PvP forum not a PvE forum. You don't pop your long duration CD at 100% because you have absolutely no way of knowing the enemy's going to really focus fire on you except for the Huttball situation. Short of developing sixth sense you usually will use your defensive CDs at around ~50% range since that's the only time you can be certain people will focus on you. At this point 100% chance to stop all the dangerous attacks for 5 seconds is far better than a bit more mitigation and 30-40% mitigation for 10 seconds, because you usually won't even live past the next 5 seconds if you're really focus fired. This is why Marauders CDs are strong, as both of them can at least guaranteed they'll still be alive after it ran out no matter how much of a mess they get into. You see people complain about Force Shroud, Force Camo, or Undying Rage, but you sure don't see people complain about Invinicible or Energy Shield. Why? Because you can kill someone through the latter but it's practically impossible to kill someone from the first set of 3 abilities.

 

By the way, what kind of awesome teammates do people play with that the moment they die, they instantly run halfway across the battlefield to buff you again, because I'd like to have some of those guys on my side. After I die once (and believe it or not, even Darkness Assassins die), the only buffs I get is from whoever happened to be behind the respawn shield at that time.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Astarica

[exphryl]

Do you mean the Defense stat? Or also the Shield stat as well? PTs have very low Defense but high Shield. Juggs have Defense on par with Assassins and iirc higher shield without Dark Ward up but less with Dark Ward up. Which is why Assassins make the poorest tank for groups of enemies when it comes to mitigation.

 

Because having high shield stat works wonders in PvP amirite?

[Jarfunkz]

Why would BW nerf shadow? With the nerf of commando, they need a class that everyone can play. If you make that class have a lightsaber... PROFIT. Five million subs easy.

 

I can only assume that is what BW sales and marketing said.

[Darth_Ricky]

Thanks for showing you still have no idea what you're talking about.

 

if u dont think your nerf is coming soon u rly havent been observing bioware to much have u

 

your nerfs coming even if u post 10k times lol

[TheLakers]

I could post of screenshot of a football team that scored 70 points in a game. That means that football team averages 70 points a game, right?

 

This isn't football.

 

But Shadow/SIn tanks putting up 400-600k every competitive voidstar/alderaan is certainly the farthest thing from an aberration. More like a certainty, at least the with people that I play with, against.

 

Of course this doesn't factor in the baddies.

 

I've rolled my Shadow on day 1 of the game's release,

 

Suuuuuuure, you did. That's what all the FOTM re-rolls say.

[TheLakers]

Assuming you don't have a buff in a PvP or raid setting is also meaningless. When the devs balance classes they assume all the classes have access to all four group buffs. It would be stupid to balance any other way, so it would be silly to have a discussion about what class has access to which buff. Legacy was mentioned because anyone can have access to any buff they want even solo once 1.2 hits, if they want to put forth the effort to get it.

 

Sorry, nope. Legacy is legacy, not class balance. Fact is with buffs are not, Shadow/Sins have the inherent advantage. Along with all their other advantages over every class/spec. So another overpowered aspect out.

 

So yes, talking about legacy rewards when everyone is talking about imbalances between actual classes has no place in the discussion.

Edited April 3, 2012 by TheLakers

[TheLakers]

Do you mean the Defense stat? Or also the Shield stat as well? PTs have very low Defense but high Shield. Juggs have Defense on par with Assassins and iirc higher shield without Dark Ward up but less with Dark Ward up. Which is why Assassins make the poorest tank for groups of enemies when it comes to mitigation.

 

 

No it doesn't. Not after you factor in cooldowns and the fact the most PvP damage in the game is of the yellow variety.

 

And we haven't even touched on the fact that they can stealth, self-cleanse (Juggs can't), self heal and then vanish and/or sprint away from danger while being focused. No need to mitigate when you can't even be targeted.