When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[jonezyboy]

I have wasted time reading all the whining on this thread about op shadow spec and under powered spec. Both statements are false we are the most balanced class in the game you just have to learn to play each spec. I am infiltration and i can destroy ever class even tank shadows/assassin it just takes more skill bit i have the same problem with jugger/guardians and powertech/vanguards but i can kill all of them if i play right. i am always top 3 at the end of the match if i want to be and i have great survival skills if my cooldowns are up if they are not then i have the ability to run. which is what the spec is meant to do. No matter what class u are fighting if you are attacking when the pop defensive cooldowns run and wait until they wear off. I have played all three spec of shadow and infiltration fits me. I wish people would stop complaining because they are not better than other players and so they blame it on the class imbalance. I hate sentinel/murders i thought they were op but i took the time to learn to kill now i think they are a joke. I hated sorcerors just the same and i learned to interrupt their heals now i can destroy them to. People must also take into account that every class has another class that they are strong/weak against and you must adapt your game play to maximize your effectiveness. Stop feeling like you should be able to kill everyone and never die. Its Pvp you are gonna get killed. Maybe if you killed the healers healing those who seem impossible to kill you would not have so much trouble.

[TheLakers]

Guardian Leap, 1-2k heal every 20 seconds.

 

That's only from a set bonus.

 

And said Guardian/Jugg will still get outhealed by a Shadow/Sin by about 70k.

 

Try again.

[thefishdude]

Okay I'll do that right now....you know since rated WZs are already out and stuff.

 

Sarcasm is a classic defection mechanism against questions or situations that make us feel uncomfortable. Way to avoid the challenge for the second time....

[Fallensbane]

I have wasted time reading all the whining on this thread about op shadow spec and under powered spec. Both statements are false we are the most balanced class in the game you just have to learn to play each spec. I am infiltration and i can destroy ever class even tank shadows/assassin it just takes more skill bit i have the same problem with jugger/guardians and powertech/vanguards but i can kill all of them if i play right. i am always top 3 at the end of the match if i want to be and i have great survival skills if my cooldowns are up if they are not then i have the ability to run. which is what the spec is meant to do. No matter what class u are fighting if you are attacking when the pop defensive cooldowns run and wait until they wear off. I have played all three spec of shadow and infiltration fits me. I wish people would stop complaining because they are not better than other players and so they blame it on the class imbalance. I hate sentinel/murders i thought they were op but i took the time to learn to kill now i think they are a joke. I hated sorcerors just the same and i learned to interrupt their heals now i can destroy them to. People must also take into account that every class has another class that they are strong/weak against and you must adapt your game play to maximize your effectiveness. Stop feeling like you should be able to kill everyone and never die. Its Pvp you are gonna get killed. Maybe if you killed the healers healing those who seem impossible to kill you would not have so much trouble.

 

 

I can't agree with this anymore if I wanted to. Learn animations and effects and you can take them down. Like you said, you attack them head odd and they pop their cs, run away, back off, whatever. Wait for the effect to wear off and come back in.

 

If you expect your just going to mash keys against every class without formulating some tactics then your going to get torn apart. Play smart.

[Astarica]

I'm going to take a stab at this. Yes I have seen a video of someone just using thrash in the 10-49 bracket and would like to see it in the 50's against a competent team. There are way more 'sins/shadows in the 10-49 bracket than in the 50's on my server, most are re rollers who suck at it, they can do ok damage but do not know how to utilize all the abilities.

 

I know that a lot of players like using numbers in a warzone to drive home there point and trust me, when I play with a good PT or Mara they will beat me in dps every time, its not even close.

 

If people can put 700K damage in screenshots it's certainly not hard to imagine Thrash doing slightly better than half the DPS of the typical Darkness rotation. Darkness is pretty much kite-proof so there's no significant risk for doing a Thrash-only rotation.

 

Either way the numbers are pretty meaningless, but in theory we should see more meaningless numbers that'd lead to more complains about nerfs, except for some weird reason a lot of Darkness Assassins can't even put up meaningless numbers. Either they're very bad, or that Darkness has a tendency to get stuck with objectives in WZ.

 

Darkness is well above 50% against any other class 1on1 in the game. Some classes, like Marauder might be very close to 50%, but it's no less than 50%. Powertechs are a unique case. As the top DPS class in the game, you really should be taking the burden of taking on tough to kill classes like protected healers, Marauders, or Mercs. DPS Powertechs are easily killed and that should be left to lesser classes, but of course since teamwork is usuall nonexistent in PUGs you might be surrpised by a PT that you thought someone else is supposed to take care of while you work on the hard guys.

[Goktsu]

This class is just OVerpowered from all aspects , BIoware need to balance it, a class that has all the jack of the tool cards and can actually impact game balance in such a way other classes are inferior should be fixed. Edited April 1, 2012 by Goktsu

[AMKSED]

Sarcasm is a classic defection mechanism against questions or situations that make us feel uncomfortable. Way to avoid the challenge for the second time....

 

Because I can show you my rating right now?

 

 

When 1.2 comes, I'll be more than happy to share my rating.

Edited April 1, 2012 by AMKSED

[MrXen]

Shadow tanks do not have light armor and have 38-41% damage mitigation from armor alone, you should have this talented because it gives the ability spike to be used out of combat.

 

Sprint is amazing for anti kiting since it breaks roots and snares when used

 

1 burst attack that is their execute? I guess 100% crit shocks that have a 45% chance to proc another shock for 50% of the damage can't be considered burst? Or Super lightning channels that can hit pretty hard.

 

Wither hit's quite hard and so does Death Field... So not really mediocre at all.

 

Sages can stun for 30 seconds? Sages can hit for 8k a hit? WHAT game are you playing?

 

 

1) Assassins DO in fact wear light armor so you are wrong there. Sith inquisitors use light armors. How you don't know this by now, no clue.

 

 

2)Sprint is amazing, you are right, its a 20 second cooldown when talented and is very useful, good observation.

 

 

3)100% crit shocks? Super lightning channels?

 

a) the guaranteed crit shock is a 90s cooldown called Recklessness which gives only 2

charges that increase >force< attacks crit chance by 60%

 

b) Super lightning as you called it, takes a charge, and so does shock

 

c) Since a 31-point darkness sin has not talented his shock, the damage will be

an order of magnitude lower than a deception spec sin (not much of a burst there)

 

 

4) Wither does in fact hit hard sometimes, for about 1600 if you are lucky (vs equal geared), however this is important: DEATH FIELD is in another tree and cannot be used with wither (a 31-point skill in darkness tree) since death field is an 11 point skill. I personally have not encountered a player with 42 skill points to play with, and if you have then I know your problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please, don't say things about a class you obviously have never played and obviously know absolutely nothing about other than "ooo a dual-sided lightsaber they are too tough derr":rolleyes: Of the things you COULD legitimately complain about against the assassin tank spec you picked all the wrong things.

Edited April 1, 2012 by MrXen

[AMKSED]

That's only from a set bonus.

 

And said Guardian/Jugg will still get outhealed by a Shadow/Sin by about 70k.

 

Try again.

 

It's still a heal. Same with the heal from Resolute when spec'd.

[Stratoforce]

Deception is still a incredibly strong burst damage spec, with a rotation as simple as PT, or tracer missiles spam when it comes to pulling off the burst.

[Lina_Inverse]

Deception is still a incredibly strong burst damage spec, with a rotation as simple as PT, or tracer missiles spam when it comes to pulling off the burst.

 

It's not really comparable to those two for a couple reasons which you probably already know, but I won't argue that it's not difficult to pull off.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Lina_Inverse

[AMKSED]

Deception is still a incredibly strong burst damage spec, with a rotation as simple as PT, or tracer missiles spam when it comes to pulling off the burst.

 

Wanna know the difference?

 

 

Deception/Infiltration takes nearly 2x more damage than the 2 others you listed.

[Ankhkharu]

I don't have a problem with high burst and low surv (as stealth dps should be)

 

I don't have a problem with low damage and high surv (as a tank should be)

 

I do have a problem with consistent medium, when stars align - high damage and high surv (which is exactly what current state of hybrid assassin/shadow is)

[Markooo]

O common , we r not that OP , i still cant do 500k dmg per WZ and have more than 70k healing in same WZ

 

We need more buffs !!!!

[Antipathize]

I don't have a problem with high burst and low surv (as stealth dps should be)

 

I don't have a problem with low damage and high surv (as a tank should be)

 

I do have a problem with consistent medium, when stars align - high damage and high surv (which is exactly what current state of hybrid assassin/shadow is)

 

Wrong. It's medium medium.

 

 

And mrXen, I would love to know where you're getting 1600 withers, I get 500 and if I'm lucky, 1000 against low geared opponents.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Antipathize

[Jo-Han]

I don't have a problem with high burst and low surv (as stealth dps should be)

 

I don't have a problem with low damage and high surv (as a tank should be)

 

I do have a problem with consistent medium, when stars align - high damage and high surv (which is exactly what current state of hybrid assassin/shadow is)

 

This guy has nailed it. Shadows dont have amazing damage. They have good damage coupled with very high survivability and a lot of tricks. That combo is what makes them so godlike.

[thecoffeeguy]

Sins/Shadows wont get a nerf until Biowares "statistics" system shows that a group of shadows/sins are constantly stun locking people in WZ, making those people lose the match and unsubscribe from SWTOR. Only then, will they get a nerf....

 

 

"We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Shadows/Sins, then that might be part of that, and they will be not as likely to re-subscribe"

 

 

[AbhiX]

I agree with amksed and just to give u guys an idea about the dps amount a tank sin/shadow(31/0/10) or a hybrid sin/shadow(27/0/14) can do, i'll share some numbers.

 

Now with popped up adrenals and relics, my tk throw using 3x harnessed shadow does about 2.3k per dmg tick on any full bm non tank player on a avg. I.e. more on sorcs, a bit less on medium armor but roughly 2.3k crit per tick. With force potency thats like 2.3k x 4 = 9k + dmg in 3 seconds

 

Same a charged up project with force potency does more than 3.5k dmg and if i get the extra project (50% chance) i get extra 1.5k dmg = 5k dmg

 

If I'm a hybrid spec, my double stike which almost always crits does around 1450/1450 on any non tank class = about close to 3k

 

Slow time is just great for the debuff/harnessed proc but does like 2k + always non buffed

 

 

I'm able to win 95% of 2v1 fights against equally geared people of other classes. The only times i might loose would be when its a healer tank/guard combo.

 

 

Just to make it easy for u, we are able to kill Healing classes 1v1. Now that should tell any 1 about the dps in this spec.

 

Regarding survivability, Almost 40% dmg reduction, 500 hp tick every 4.5k sec, Health potion, 5sec Resillence for 45 secs, 12 sec deflection, Knock back, Force Speed, 10% hp from a 1.5 min cd skill, 10% hp back with a buffed up TK throw, which could be every 10 seconds.

If we have a healer around, we can guard it, while doing crazy dps and making sure both of us arent dying...easily takin on 4 people at once.

 

This is why I agree with AMKSED

[Agooz]

I agree with amksed and just to give u guys an idea about the dps amount a tank sin/shadow(31/0/10) or a hybrid sin/shadow(27/0/14) can do, i'll share some numbers.

 

Now with popped up adrenals and relics, my tk throw using 3x harnessed shadow does about 2.3k per dmg tick on any full bm non tank player on a avg. I.e. more on sorcs, a bit less on medium armor but roughly 2.3k crit per tick. With force potency thats like 2.3k x 4 = 9k + dmg in 3 seconds

 

Same a charged up project with force potency does more than 3.5k dmg and if i get the extra project (50% chance) i get extra 1.5k dmg = 5k dmg

 

If I'm a hybrid spec, my double stike which almost always crits does around 1450/1450 on any non tank class = about close to 3k

 

Slow time is just great for the debuff/harnessed proc but does like 2k + always non buffed

 

 

I'm able to win 95% of 2v1 fights against equally geared people of other classes. The only times i might loose would be when its a healer tank/guard combo.

 

 

Just to make it easy for u, we are able to kill Healing classes 1v1. Now that should tell any 1 about the dps in this spec.

 

Regarding survivability, Almost 40% dmg reduction, 500 hp tick every 4.5k sec, Health potion, 5sec Resillence for 45 secs, 12 sec deflection, Knock back, Force Speed, 10% hp from a 1.5 min cd skill, 10% hp back with a buffed up TK throw, which could be every 10 seconds.

If we have a healer around, we can guard it, while doing crazy dps and making sure both of us arent dying...easily takin on 4 people at once.

 

This is why I agree with AMKSED

 

lol I was going to write a long detailed list of why they are OP, but the above post saved me the trouble. Thank you ^ ^

[viLe-]

lol I was going to write a long detailed list of why they are OP, but the above post saved me the trouble. Thank you ^ ^

 

Yea, except the numbers he's using are not against full BM sorcs, but against fresh 11k hp sorcs in green gear.

[Exilim]

Yea, except the numbers he's using are not against full BM sorcs, but against fresh 11k hp sorcs in green gear.

 

How did you come to that conclusion exactly? How many fresh level 50 sorcs do you see PvPing? It's been about 3 weeks since I've seen one. I was milking my 5k crits off him all day.

 

You may think you countered his argument with some clever 1 liner but what you said is completely baseless.

[viLe-]

How did you come to that conclusion exactly? How many fresh level 50 sorcs do you see PvPing? It's been about 3 weeks since I've seen one. I was milking my 5k crits off him all day.

 

You may think you countered his argument with some clever 1 liner but what you said is completely baseless.

 

Because i pvp with my full BM Shadow tank alot, and with 420 bonus dmg against full BM players i have never hit anything remotely close to those numbers.

 

If you do, why dont you make a short video of you putting up an average 2.3k TK ticks against full BM geared ppl.

 

Otherwise i call BS.

[TheLakers]

I agree with amksed and just to give u guys an idea about the dps amount a tank sin/shadow(31/0/10) or a hybrid sin/shadow(27/0/14) can do, i'll share some numbers.

 

Now with popped up adrenals and relics, my tk throw using 3x harnessed shadow does about 2.3k per dmg tick on any full bm non tank player on a avg. I.e. more on sorcs, a bit less on medium armor but roughly 2.3k crit per tick. With force potency thats like 2.3k x 4 = 9k + dmg in 3 seconds

 

Same a charged up project with force potency does more than 3.5k dmg and if i get the extra project (50% chance) i get extra 1.5k dmg = 5k dmg

 

If I'm a hybrid spec, my double stike which almost always crits does around 1450/1450 on any non tank class = about close to 3k

 

Slow time is just great for the debuff/harnessed proc but does like 2k + always non buffed

 

 

I'm able to win 95% of 2v1 fights against equally geared people of other classes. The only times i might loose would be when its a healer tank/guard combo.

 

 

Just to make it easy for u, we are able to kill Healing classes 1v1. Now that should tell any 1 about the dps in this spec.

 

Regarding survivability, Almost 40% dmg reduction, 500 hp tick every 4.5k sec, Health potion, 5sec Resillence for 45 secs, 12 sec deflection, Knock back, Force Speed, 10% hp from a 1.5 min cd skill, 10% hp back with a buffed up TK throw, which could be every 10 seconds.

If we have a healer around, we can guard it, while doing crazy dps and making sure both of us arent dying...easily takin on 4 people at once.

 

This is why I agree with AMKSED

 

Yeah, they are pretty obviously broken. It's weird/sad/funny/mind boggling why Bioware hasn't acknowledged and fixed this yet.

[MrXen]

I agree with amksed and just to give u guys an idea about the dps amount a tank sin/shadow(31/0/10) or a hybrid sin/shadow(27/0/14) can do, i'll share some numbers.

 

Now with popped up adrenals and relics, my tk throw using 3x harnessed shadow does about 2.3k per dmg tick on any full bm non tank player on a avg. I.e. more on sorcs, a bit less on medium armor but roughly 2.3k crit per tick. With force potency thats like 2.3k x 4 = 9k + dmg in 3 seconds

 

Same a charged up project with force potency does more than 3.5k dmg and if i get the extra project (50% chance) i get extra 1.5k dmg = 5k dmg

 

If I'm a hybrid spec, my double stike which almost always crits does around 1450/1450 on any non tank class = about close to 3k

 

Slow time is just great for the debuff/harnessed proc but does like 2k + always non buffed

 

 

I'm able to win 95% of 2v1 fights against equally geared people of other classes. The only times i might loose would be when its a healer tank/guard combo.

 

 

Just to make it easy for u, we are able to kill Healing classes 1v1. Now that should tell any 1 about the dps in this spec.

 

Regarding survivability, Almost 40% dmg reduction, 500 hp tick every 4.5k sec, Health potion, 5sec Resillence for 45 secs, 12 sec deflection, Knock back, Force Speed, 10% hp from a 1.5 min cd skill, 10% hp back with a buffed up TK throw, which could be every 10 seconds.

If we have a healer around, we can guard it, while doing crazy dps and making sure both of us arent dying...easily takin on 4 people at once.

 

This is why I agree with AMKSED

 

 

I highlighted the areas in red where you lied/bsed/completely made stuff up.

 

 

 

I am a BM geared assassin, with 425 bonus damage, and 700 force bonus damage. When I have 3 stacks of harnessed darkness and use recklessness as I cast lightning, my damage per tick is roughly 1200 per crit on an opponent lesser geared than me (the guy I tested this on is a centurion/champion geared marauder).

 

 

The highest I've ever seen this crit for is 1800 on a green geared 50 (I know he was green geared because he had 11,000 hp and hit me for about 300 damage with a crit maul).

 

 

 

Also, a tank spec sin can never kill a conscience healer because the dps just isn't there. Tank assassins win 1v1 because they can heal so much/mitigate so much while stunning properly to maintain an hp advantage. They do not win 1v1 because their dps is "RAWR OMG." They play like a tank that slowly plinks the enemy away while maintaining hp. Thats it.

 

 

 

If you want proof in my numbers I can post screenshots, more than I know any of you can do.

 

 

 

Wrong. It's medium medium.

 

And mrXen, I would love to know where you're getting 1600 withers, I get 500 and if I'm lucky, 1000 against low geared opponents.

 

 

And thats what I usually get too, I saw a 1600 crit only once or twice (I have power stacked as much as possible) and I had all my power adrenals going etc. Hit some lowbie for 1600.

Edited April 1, 2012 by MrXen

[AMKSED]

I agree with amksed and just to give u guys an idea about the dps amount a tank sin/shadow(31/0/10) or a hybrid sin/shadow(27/0/14) can do, i'll share some numbers.

 

Now with popped up adrenals and relics, my tk throw using 3x harnessed shadow does about 2.3k per dmg tick on any full bm non tank player on a avg. I.e. more on sorcs, a bit less on medium armor but roughly 2.3k crit per tick. With force potency thats like 2.3k x 4 = 9k + dmg in 3 seconds

 

Same a charged up project with force potency does more than 3.5k dmg and if i get the extra project (50% chance) i get extra 1.5k dmg = 5k dmg

 

If I'm a hybrid spec, my double stike which almost always crits does around 1450/1450 on any non tank class = about close to 3k

 

Slow time is just great for the debuff/harnessed proc but does like 2k + always non buffed

 

 

I'm able to win 95% of 2v1 fights against equally geared people of other classes. The only times i might loose would be when its a healer tank/guard combo.

 

 

Just to make it easy for u, we are able to kill Healing classes 1v1. Now that should tell any 1 about the dps in this spec.

 

Regarding survivability, Almost 40% dmg reduction, 500 hp tick every 4.5k sec, Health potion, 5sec Resillence for 45 secs, 12 sec deflection, Knock back, Force Speed, 10% hp from a 1.5 min cd skill, 10% hp back with a buffed up TK throw, which could be every 10 seconds.

If we have a healer around, we can guard it, while doing crazy dps and making sure both of us arent dying...easily takin on 4 people at once.

 

This is why I agree with AMKSED

 

Oh, hey Aryan. I forgot to mention you in the original posts with Prestige.