Why people who are high rated should get better gear: Everyone will be happy!

[Vaipyr]

+1

 

It's time to stop supporting lazy methods of extending game longevity,

And finally demand some quality, innovative game design.

There will be fun,

Oh yes,

There will be fun.

 

Agreed. Kudos to BW for changing the system for their PvP to what is the best. IE: Moddable equipment for vanity, prestige and bragging rights (along with titles and other "LOOK AT ME" awards). That is all true pvpers should need as a reward. A trophy. A trophy doesn't give you an advantage when playing your sport, it's just there to show off and say "Yeah, I'm ******".

[Assaultrooper]

Agreed. Kudos to BW for changing the system for their PvP to what is the best. IE: Moddable equipment for vanity, prestige and bragging rights (along with titles and other "LOOK AT ME" awards). That is all true pvpers should need as a reward. A trophy. A trophy doesn't give you an advantage when playing your sport, it's just there to show off and say "Yeah, I'm ******".

 

Completely agree, but on ONE condition that any new flashpoint or Operation loot also be "Vanity", and "Presitige" because that's what true PvE-ers should need as a reward! A trophy. A Trophy doesn't give you an advantage when playing your game over new guys, its just show off, as it should be!

[maticlandarr]

 

I don't need better gear to outperform, I want it because I deserve it.

 

Brb, puking.

[Jimra]

Completely agree, but on ONE condition that any new flashpoint or Operation loot also be "Vanity", and "Presitige" because that's what true PvE-ers should need as a reward! A trophy. A Trophy doesn't give you an advantage when playing your game over new guys, its just show off, as it should be!

 

Flawed. NPC's don't leave the game because they are being killed too easily and can't even hurt their opponents, while new subscribers do.

[indelible]

Conversely an equally numerous and vocal portion of us "hardcore" PvPers has categorically denied the need for a gear grind in PvP, and pointed at Guild Wars 2 as a testimony to this fact.

 

Gear progression is nice, don't get me wrong. However the lower the gap between entry level players and the top tier of PvPers, the better for the health of the PvP in general. World of Warcraft categorically failed to stimulate competitive PvP because the gap between the upper and lower classes was artificially created with gear. They then attempted to resolve this with Arena Tournament server, but again limited the amount of players involved by asking them for cash to participate.

 

What Bioware are doing in 1.2 is a great idea as it narrows the gap between the upper and lower classes, stimulating competitiveness and (hopefully) setting up the game to grow to a truly competitive PvP affair, something that has been sorely missing from MMOs of late.

[Assaultrooper]

Flawed. NPC's don't leave the game because they are being killed too easily and can't even hurt their opponents, while new subscribers do.

 

But badly geared dps been kicked of the group for sucky dps do.

[Morticoccus]

Hey, I've been seeing a lot of posts lately about skilled players wanting better gear due to their superiority, and I see a lot of people say "No, then you will have advantage over me, and gear>Skill in this game". Others will say "I am not that good, so why give better players then me even better gear then I have?"

 

Answer to guy no. 1: If you are actually hindered killing the guy because he has better gear than you, but you claim you would beat him if everyone had the same gear, why don't you just grind the high rated gear youself?

 

Answer to guy no. 2: If you suck and are getting owned already as it is, then what difference does it make to you anyway?

 

Everyone is happy, give us good players gear to work for, rather than just to grind endless hours for. And don't give it to people who aren't good enough. Hell, even, make like Vanilla times, give only a RARE number of the best ones a supre rank with "Rank 14 PvP gear".

 

Any takers?

 

You are a self entitled elitist just like all the other "good" players of this game, and pretty much all other PvP games, and you also seem to fail to grasp the issue with gear.

 

If you get gear because you are good at beating down other players, you will create a situation where the only way to even be able to compete in high level PvP is to grind by being killed over and over and over by players that have an advantage in both gear and skill.

 

Which means, you'll get to sit in the tree house with all your "good" buddies and beat anyone poking their head up with a hammer.

 

If that is how you like showing the world how skilled you are at a game, take up whack-a-mole instead, it will cause far less annoyance for the rest of us.

[Seriasx]

Item progression works well with pve since the mobs are pit against what players are capable of in said gear, players can choose from the lowest/easiest raid/group to gain gear to do the higher tier mobs.

 

Its kind of lazy, but it works, you get a certain level of gear to defeat such and such encounter.

 

PvP item progression does NOT work because players without any gear have to play against those with gear and they also have to beat those players to aquire the gear. Its a horrible system that puts players who play constantly above those who are new or have less time to play.

 

Notice I said less time to play and not better or worse at pvping because NO ONE knows who is better because of the gear disparity.

 

Good pvpers who play alot, good pvpers who play less, new pvpers, and bad players do NOT want gear progression in pvp because instead of tactics, playing ability, battle awareness "paying attention to your surroundings" and class knowledge "both your class, your teammates class and the ones against you" should be the deciding factor in pvp combat.

 

Gear progression in pvp puts less and less emphasis on playing ability and more and more emphasis on how often and how many bags you opened and put onto your toon. Its as unrewarding an experience as you could have in pvp.

 

Let your playing ability be the deciding factor in winning or losing, let those you dominate know they were outplayed by a superior player/team as opposed to being out geared.

 

No good player could ever want gear progression in pvp, its counter to what they want which is to beat players with their ability to play, not their ability to put gear on.

[Morticoccus]

Item progression works well with pve since the mobs are pit against what players are capable of in said gear, players can choose from the lowest/easiest raid/group to gain gear to do the higher tier mobs.

 

Its kind of lazy, but it works, you get a certain level of gear to defeat such and such encounter.

 

PvP item progression does NOT work because players without any gear have to play against those with gear and they also have to beat those players to aquire the gear. Its a horrible system that puts players who play constantly above those who are new or have less time to play.

 

Notice I said less time to play and not better or worse at pvping because NO ONE knows who is better because of the gear disparity.

 

Good pvpers who play alot, good pvpers who play less, new pvpers, and bad players do NOT want gear progression in pvp because instead of tactics, playing ability, battle awareness "paying attention to your surroundings" and class knowledge "both your class, your teammates class and the ones against you" should be the deciding factor in pvp combat.

 

Gear progression in pvp puts less and less emphasis on playing ability and more and more emphasis on how often and how many bags you opened and put onto your toon. Its as unrewarding an experience as you could have in pvp.

 

Let your playing ability be the deciding factor in winning or losing, let those you dominate know they were outplayed by a superior player/team as opposed to being out geared.

 

No good player could ever want gear progression in pvp, its counter to what they want which is to beat players with their ability to play, not their ability to put gear on.

 

I couldn't agree more, the gear progression curve as it is now is just pure BS.

If they gave us a buff like in the 10-49 bracket that equalized stats for gear at level 50 we could all play based on our skill, and not whatever crap we're wearing.

[iceperson]

Must be your server.

 

i doubt it. anyone who thinks /played time is the same thing as skill probably just doesn't know better.

[KhealThar]

i doubt it. anyone who thinks /played time is the same thing as skill probably just doesn't know better.

 

I know it's hilarious. I bet once Ranked Warzones go live, the OP won't even be at a decent rating.

 

I wish you actually had to post on your main character on these forums so we could see all these self proclaimed awesome pvpers for what they really are, instead of hiding behind an avatar claiming they're super awesome and deserve better gear to show for it.

 

I just find it funny, he's talking about wanting competition, and how if he wanted a competitive game he'd just play counter strike etc, well why can't developers make MMO's competitive? Why do you need a huge gear advantage to feel like you earned something?

 

The Gladiator title in World of Warcraft is a nice example, this used to be a very prestigious title and no one ever was rewarded better gear for being higher rated, except a t2 weapon because of pve but anyways, the title was enough to feel like you earned something.

 

Give me a break, MMO pvp has been terrible from day 1, it's time someone innovates and removes the grind and brings the competition.

 

At least GW2 gets it, hopefully SWTOR does as well.

[Dharnyle]

Tell me something, if the High rated people get their much coveted 'elite' gear... whats to prevent them from solo que'ing and going into random matches just to WTFPWN the people who DON'T have the uberleet high rated gear?

 

*crickets*

 

Anyone?

[slimboi]

Oh Hai Guiz,

 

I just wanted to say that I am the best PVPER in the whole world and I deserve to have to best equipment because when I log into SWTOR I make my whole faction better in PVP. In fact, I am so uber awsome, whenever I log into SW, I make my entire faction on every single server in this game perform better. That's right. My presence alone in game makes my entire side peform better in PVP. I am JUST THAT D**** GOOD. In fact, I think they should just cancel everyone's accounts for SWTOR since every time I log in I win the game.

 

/Sarcasm off

[Defang]

This whole skill vs gear debate is really kind of stupid. I mean gear is probably the only type of progression in this game for people who pvp. The idea is simple: you do lots of pvp and do well and you are rewarded with gear that supports that play style.

 

However several people feel that they are constantly losing because their gear is terrible or whatever, while saying that the game should be based on skill alone and not gear by any measure.

 

I think perhaps the top end pvpers should be rewarded with a bit more power. Even if its just superior weapons. Otherwise ranking and different colored gearsets are the only thing to look forward too.

 

While I do think competitive pvp is fun because it is fun to compete there also has to be incentive to keep pvping. So when both parties are fully geared out the competitive pvper that has obtained the high ranked weapons will be slightly more powerful but not so much that the other person never stood a chance.

[ZuperDweeb]

Don't see why it matters in the first place, you don't need the top tier PvP gear to excel in PvP believe it or not, hell, my bounty hunter uses columni gear and a medium armor operative jacket with level 50 purples and has around 232 expertise. Still manage to kill the battlemasters.

[RichardNoggin]

Tell you the truth Edited March 11, 2012 by RichardNoggin

[Cebby]

There can be gear progession with glaring balance problems. There are glaring problems with gear progression right now.

 

Does play time count or should it, yes. Although you should not be OP compared to the other gear tiers . ALso the time invested needs to cap.. so someone who is playin 25 hours a week should be geared the same as a super nerd who plays 10 hours a day.

 

They cannot balance the game around cronic gamers, its impossible. The balance must be set between casuals and elites. For the health of the game.

[Rohns]

i would make vanity items and speeders for those who do lot of PvP

 

i am full battlemaster, and i admit is funny to kill undergeared player at the beginning, then it's just boaring, hardly they beat me one on one, with all cds up almost never, after sometimes it's just boaring, i would prefere a lot that PvP is about skill and with the same gear.

only bad players want to grind gear because without gear they could not do so good anymore, same gear is fun because at least real skill would emerge....

[Jedi_Wannabe]

I don't need better gear to outperform, I want it because I deserve it.

 

Funniest

post

ever.

[Knockerz]

Mmorpg are moving away from gear with better stats in pvp being the reward. It doesn't promote more people to pvp. In fact, if you look at wow there was a sharp decline in pvp participation as more gear was restricted with ratings. Thus, wow no longer offers gear with better stats as a reward for people with higher ratings. Instead wow rewards cosmetic gear, titles, and non gear upgrades like mounts.

 

What I'm saying is mmorpg are changing. Yes, gear progression was a cornerstone in pvp, but it appears that mmorpg are moving away from that idea in pvp. Thus, pvp rewards in mmorpg are shifting from rewarding better gear to rewarding purely cosmetic or symbolic gear, titles, or other non-gear upgrade rewards.

 

Now this is my opinion. There is probably a lot of dislike of pvp in mmorpg in general about this topic. I know in wow a lot of people stop pvp cause you shouldn't have to defeat teams with better gear. It's counter competitive when you give players an advantage and lot of people refuse to participate in pvp due to the perceived disadvantage. However, when the gear gap is so wide people don't even bother to pvp. This is what was happening in swtor.

 

The gear difference between a new 50 and a full bm was too large. There is also the fact that while people were grinding they weren't really playing the game in the sense that the pvp part of this game didn't start until you were near bm level of gearing. Gear up was too slow too for most casual players. If took you a full month of pvp every day how long do you think it take a casual player? Realistically, those casual players would have quit.

 

Return to the topic at hand. The mmorpg industry is changing and is moving away from gear progression in pvp. Personally, I prefer this way cause that forces the mmorpg company to make better pvp battlegrounds/warzones, world pvp, competitive pvp, and so forth. That's one reason I don't like wow too much any more for both pvp and pve. It has become about chasing gear and not about raiding or pvp. It's just easier to dangle the gear carrot than what it is to make meaningful pvp or pve content.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Knockerz

[MattyLightATX]

Gear doesn't equal an automatic win...ever. I've beaten a few BM's while I was a fresh 50 or with a few pieces of cent. Granted I had to pop all my cd's and a medpac, but it still happened. The current "ranking" system is purely based off time played and that does not deserve a gear reward. The only thing you "deserve" for playing this much to think you're owed gear is a new padded seat cushion so you don't get sores on your backside.

 

Skill > gear. ALWAYS. Just the other night we went up against a premade group of BM's with 4-5 healers. At the end of the match, our side had kills ranging from 1-8, and the other side had anywhere between 38 and 56. We still won the warzone, it was Voidstar for those curious. My point being, they didn't pay attention and even while they killed us a lot, weren't able to kill us fast enough to get planted at all while we made it to the third door. Teamwork and getting the objectives done ftw? Simply put, they're too stupid or ignorant to pay attention because they are decked out in BM so they think automatic win.

 

So go ahead and fight for your gear sir. After you get it though, why don't you find someone that's skilled and allow them to roflstomp you in their lower gear. Please record it too so I can trolololololol while watching it.

Edited March 11, 2012 by MattyLightATX

[Rizael]

The reason I don't think better gear should be implemented for higher ranks is it creates a cushion for people who attain the rank first. With ANY gear advantage it always influences a fight regardless of how minor the advantage is. I would rather PvP be based on a player skill, build, and point allocation of available stats.

[Smashapotamus]

This discussion is a waste of time. Every one who is arguing one side of the argument is completely ignoring another.

 

- The guys who want heavy gear progression in PVP are ignoring the fact that it divides the player base and diminishes legitimate skill and strategy in favor of stat stacking and rewarding those who have the most time to spend online regardless of their actual skill level.

 

- The guys who are strictly anti gear progression in PVP are ignoring the blatantly obvious reason why gear progression in PVP exists in the first place. It's to create a barrier between those who PVE and those who PVP. That barrier is necessary and i'll tell you why, simply put: Removal of that barrier would create the EXACT same situation you're complaining about now where your talent and strategic offerings get diminished in favor of stat stacking PVE players who rolled into a PVP situation stacked to the hilt with gear acquired by killing monsters. Removal of PVP gear progression in a game which contains PVE gear progression would exacerbate the problem you're already complaining about and make it 10x worse!

 

- Then you get the odd person who wants to make comparisons to WoW PVP who is blatantly ignoring the fact that WoW's PVP comparisons should only sparingly be used in specifically targeted discussions and not as a general system comparison as WoW is one of the ABSOLUTE WORST PvP games ever to hit the market. People don't PVP in WoW for the awesomeness of the system, they do it for e-sport or because they simply don't have anything better to do. Every time a new game comes out, WoW PVP'ers flock to it like locusts hoping for something better and only migrate back after the new game fails and they realize they need to maintain their arena rating.

 

 

The fact is that this is a themepark style PVE game which offers PVE gear progression. These games RARELY have decent PVP for all of the reasons you guys are listing here. PVP gear sucks but it's a necessary evil put in place to prevent PVE'ers with a distinct lack of experience and strategy from dominating in PVP. I don't know about you guys but i'd rather get dominated by a PVP'er who outgears me than a PVE'er who outgears me. If you think the cries about gear progression are bad now, wait until you break that wall down.

 

Sure you could remove all stats from PVP entirely, but then where is the progression in this game? MMO's need progression of some type, it's fundamental to the core philosophy of the game. There isn't any bases in this game to take over, there aren't any cities to build and defend, there isn't any territorial control, no resource domination. The question of "what are players working toward" will go completely unanswered in this game if you removed all stats from PVP. Once you remove progression, people will quickly run out of reasons to maintain a subscription to a game you have to pay a monthly fee to play when they can get the same experience in a slew of games with no monthly cost.

 

You guys need to keep your suggestions pointed and relevant and appropriate for the game itself.

 

TLDR: Next time you want a PVP game to play, stop looking to the AAA rated big shot corporate developer who is trying to create "a game for every one." The best PVP games tend to lack PVE gear progression and have very little PVE content to begin with. Look for the more specialized game next time because the big shot corporate developer is always going to build a game like this due to e-peen jealousy of WoW's subscription numbers.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Smashapotamus

[Dego_Locc]

This discussion is a waste of time. Every one who is arguing one side of the argument is completely ignoring another.

 

- The guys who want heavy gear progression in PVP are ignoring the fact that it divides the player base and diminishes legitimate skill and strategy in favor of stat stacking and rewarding those who have the most time to spend online regardless of their actual skill level.

 

- The guys who are strictly anti gear progression in PVP are ignoring the blatantly obvious reason why gear progression in PVP exists in the first place. It's to create a barrier between those who PVE and those who PVP. That barrier is necessary and i'll tell you why, simply put: Removal of that barrier would create the EXACT same situation you're complaining about now where your talent and strategic offerings get diminished in favor of stat stacking PVE players who rolled into a PVP situation stacked to the hilt with gear acquired by killing monsters. Removal of PVP gear progression in a game which contains PVE gear progression would exacerbate the problem you're already complaining about and make it 10x worse!

 

- Then you get the odd person who wants to make comparisons to WoW PVP who is blatantly ignoring the fact that WoW's PVP comparisons should only sparingly be used in specifically targeted discussions and not as a general system comparison as WoW is one of the ABSOLUTE WORST PvP games ever to hit the market. People don't PVP in WoW for the awesomeness of the system, they do it for e-sport or because they simply don't have anything better to do. Every time a new game comes out, WoW PVP'ers flock to it like locusts hoping for something better and only migrate back after the new game fails and they realize they need to maintain their arena rating.

 

 

The fact is that this is a themepark style PVE game which offers PVE gear progression. These games RARELY have decent PVP for all of the reasons you guys are listing here. PVP gear sucks but it's a necessary evil put in place to prevent PVE'ers with a distinct lack of experience and strategy from dominating in PVP. I don't know about you guys but i'd rather get dominated by a PVP'er who outgears me than a PVE'er who outgears me. If you think the cries about gear progression are bad now, wait until you break that wall down.

 

Sure you could remove all stats from PVP entirely, but then where is the progression in this game? MMO's need progression of some type, it's fundamental to the core philosophy of the game. There isn't any bases in this game to take over, there aren't any cities to build and defend, there isn't any territorial control, no resource domination. The question of "what are players working toward" will go completely unanswered in this game if you removed all stats from PVP. Once you remove progression, people will quickly run out of reasons to maintain a subscription to a game you have to pay a monthly fee to play when they can get the same experience in a slew of games with no monthly cost.

 

You guys need to keep your suggestions pointed and relevant and appropriate for the game itself.

 

TLDR: Next time you want a PVP game to play, stop looking to the AAA rated big shot corporate developer who is trying to create "a game for every one." The best PVP games tend to lack PVE gear progression and have very little PVE content to begin with. Look for the more specialized game next time because the big shot corporate developer is always going to build a game like this due to e-peen jealousy of WoW's subscription numbers.

Very well put. Way to cover a lot and make a bunch of good points with one post.

[Dafroog]

Because the rating system is a form of ladder it needs to be a fairly even playing field otherwise it becomes an unfair barrier to newer players, if the best keep getting better and those who arent the best or are just starting out have to beat the best to get better the system is flawed and the "best" will never be challenged.

 

PvP gear is there to prevent high end raiders getting an unfair advantage in PvP, nothing more, if you make it so the best pvp gear is tied to your rank, then your system will actively discourage people who arent already established from participating.

 

With this system, skill is the main factor in how far up the ladder you are, the ladder provides progression with valor ranks providing new titles, mounts etc and pvp gear is there for the sole purpose of doing the job it was originally designed for, preventing pve'ers from dominating pvp