PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Taroen]

Maybe you're misunderstanding.

 

If they posted a gearscrore requirement, I didn't pug with them ....even though I was certainly well over what they required.

 

If they posted a dps requirement I didn't run with them unless they were specifically doing a fight that had a tight enrage time; Tol Barad when cata first launched, for example. Even then, I only did it if they had a reasonable dps requirement for the content that they were doing.

 

I didn't run raids with people if they required certain addons.

 

 

Personally, I was fine with going into a raid, even if I was carrying people with my dps, or teaching people how to do the fights if i was on my tank.

 

Filtering all of these people out didn't have any impact on my ability to pug raids.

 

Nope, not misunderstanding at all. I avoided people who used gearscore like the plague, because they were generally bad players who didn't understand that gearscore wasn't the be-all end-all. I also avoided people who were posting ridiculous dps requirements for fights that didn't even HAVE a dps requirement, or had one that wasn't nearly that high.

 

And, though I am in favor of full combat logs and metrics, I also avoided e-peen strokers, because those are the guys that ignore basic fight mechanics and get the entire raid killed just so they *might* squeeze out another few DPS points.

 

**EDIT** That being said, I am in favor of allowing those things to be in this game, because it makes it really easy to know who I want to avoid.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Taroen

[mufutiz]

No, they removed posts where people are blatantly flaming other people.

 

You can post stuff in support of combat logs without falling back on the "if you don't want it, you must suck" garbage.

 

especially because it's not true. opposing the idea of a basic combat logs does not make you a bad player.

 

The converse argument on the other hand... ok not going to elaborate.

Edited March 8, 2012 by mufutiz

[Vydor_HC]

I agree with combat logs but I believe you may be mistaken I could be wrong but I think star wars galaxies brought that to mmo. but that could just be because the game was around for 7 years i think that .

 

Logging goes back to the days of the MUDs and MUSHs, where all you had was textual output. When the MUD code base where incorporated into graphical UI's, the text output was not removed, and the games allowed the users to pipe the results to a file.

 

The reason it's an issue here is, it's fairly odd for an MMO to have the log functionality removed.

[valgar]

That's just the thing. This complacency is just so wrong.

 

Wrong to YOU. Not to some. Do not speak for other's or tell them there thinking is wrong.

[mufutiz]

Wrong to YOU. Not to some. Do not speak for other's or tell them there thinking is wrong.

 

http://www.better-english.com/easier/theyre.htm

 

some things are just wrong.

[Galbatorrix]

I doubt it's even that... I suspect he's just projecting his problems at the lfd and meters.

 

And we're back to this? Is it not obvious to you by now that I play these games to have FUN and not to hear a bunch of elitists brag and or whine about trivial things? Whether it's me or someone else in the group being blasted due to so so DPS is irrelevant. If the groups downing bosses, mr elite DPSer needs to keep his trap shut and let the group have a good time. DPS meters gives him fuel for his fire. That is simply the way it is in games with DPS meters. The whole "You don't want them because you suck!" argument is weak and tired. If that's the case, most of the people in this thread "suck" as most of us don't want them. We don't want all of the drama that comes along with DPS meters just so some people can show off their epeen.

 

The fact is, we're all posting on the forum right now. With that being the case, most of us also probably check out guides on how to properly play our classes. I'm sure most of the anti-meters people in this thread would have perfectly respectable DPS and if not, would know where to go to check to see what they're doing wrong. Most of us aren't worried about whether we'll be bashed for bad DPS. We just don't want every group we have going forward to get bogged down in such things.

 

 

So, there you go. You guys can stop with the "OMG, you just suck! That's why you're anti meters!" arguments. They hold no weight at all.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[Moosimoo]

So, there you go. You guys can stop with the "OMG, you just suck! That's why you're anti meters!" arguments. They hold no weight at all.

 

QFT.

 

I'm not hardcore, but also I'm not a noob. I care about my dps, my performance. I don't care about others' performance or bragging rights (which comes with good performance). Sure I care about knowing who the weak link is in an Ops.

 

There are three options:

 

1) No logs (current)

2) Self only logs (which they are implementing)

3) Global logs (which a lot of us don't like the idea of)

 

If you don't want 1) or 3), 2) is the only option for you as you can just ignore your own logs.

[Tiddex]

Logging goes back to the days of the MUDs and MUSHs, where all you had was textual output. When the MUD code base where incorporated into graphical UI's, the text output was not removed, and the games allowed the users to pipe the results to a file.

 

The reason it's an issue here is, it's fairly odd for an MMO to have the log functionality removed.

 

thats what is called a design decision. there was a day when the timer was removed from jump and runs and some people thought it was dumbing down the game.

 

BW left it out it to keep this l2p-discussion out of the chat window and ban it for ever to the deeps of messageboards.

 

And as far as feedback is concerned - it seems like 75% of the users simply LOVE the decision.

 

Does anyone really think it would be a feature they lacked the time to implement?

 

We are talking about a text message, as hard to implement as "Hello World".

 

Their decision, their game - devs owe you nothing.

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-11-why-devs-owe-you-nothing

 

...and before you start to wave with your unsub-club - we are 75%, bw better makes us happy.

[Ulmius]

I used to always play a tank. It's what I did. In wow after tanking for a few years on different tanks I was growing bored. I liked being the tank and pretty much the leader of any group, but I was starting to get bored and wasn't sure why. After completing raids I realized it was the same thing... Tank things, use my cds, etc, but after completing the same raids over and over again, I was missing something. After talking a buddy of mine I realized what it was. Lack of competition to keep things fresh. He was telling me the thrill of always being able to compete with others when it came to dps. It sounded fun so I wanted to try it out and rolled an elemental shaman after completing bastion of twilight during cata.

 

I leveled up my new shaman and was lucky enough to be in the same raid because one of the dps wanted to switch to his tank so we essentially switched roles. I have to admit, at first it was a bit daunting being outdone by the others in the group. But after getting some gear, I started to compete with them and soon after when I had equivalent gear, I was beating them. I was hooked, competing for top dps was fun and breathed life into the game. I continued to play till dragon soul came out and completed it while continuing to be top dps and to be honest, it never grew old. Competing with others in the raid group for top dps is just fun to me. Especially when you've completed the same raid over and over again, it gives you something to shoot for every week. My roommate wanted to make the switch to this game so I went with him.

 

On this game I made a sniper because I enjoy dps. While fun... I have to admit, it's not nearly as fun as it was in wow. It's not because wow was better, but it's because I don't have that sense of competition that I once had. I'm finding myself completing the operations on hard mode and I'm having that same feeling I had on my tank. It's just becoming stale after beating the same raids over and over again with nothing being new, it's the same thing every week. I know people don't like damage meters for their own reasons, but I have to say that for me, it makes being a dps feel stale when you don't have them. Yes, I kill my mob first on the council fight so I know on that fight I'm top dps, but it's that one fight. That is literally the only fight where I get that thrill of competition and that feeling of excitement when I raid. All the other fights are like, eh - whatever, let's just kill it so we can move on and log out.

 

So basically, the one reason I play dps is something I can't experience in this game at the time. In the future I'll be able to see it with that parse they are releasing but it'll be a pain having to upload my log somewhere along with the other dps to compare our data. I don't even know if I'll still be dpsing by then anyway. But whatever, we'll see.

[ferroz]

especially because it's not true. opposing the idea of a basic combat logs does not make you a bad player.

No, but it IS true that at least some bad players who are afraid of a log showing them up as bad players, are opposed to combat logs. Maybe some, maybe all of them ... who knows?

 

The motivation of those people at least makes sense; the motivation of other people who are opposed to combat logs? For the most part, I can't make any sense out of their reasons.

 

\The converse argument on the other hand... ok not going to elaborate.

meh,

 

being in favor of combat logs does not make you a bad player

being opposed to combat logs does not make you a bad player.

[Vydor_HC]

thats what is called a design decision. there was a day when the timer was removed from jump and runs and some people thought it was dumbing down the game.

 

BW left it out it to keep this l2p-discussion out of the chat window and ban it for ever to the deeps of messageboards.

 

And as far as feedback is concerned - it seems like 75% of the users simply LOVE the decision.

 

Does anyone really think it would be a feature they lacked the time to implement?

 

We are talking about a text message, as hard to implement as "Hello World".

 

Their decision, their game - devs owe you nothing.

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-11-why-devs-owe-you-nothing

 

...and before you start to wave with your unsub-club - we are 75%, bw better makes us happy.

 

The feature was in the game during beta, but disabled before it went live. It was a conscious choice to remove it, it wasn't left out.

 

Why they did this is subject to much debate.

 

However, I have no idea why you are accusing me of calling it anything other that an explanation. I placed no judgmental statements in my comment,. When did I ever say the devs owe me anything or make any comment along those lines? You're just being snarky for no reason at all.

[Xontier]

I still don't see the point of public combat logs. As long as me and my guild are clearing content and still downing bosses, who cares how much DPS someone's pumping out?

[Niyenna]

The fact that I am posting in such a ridiculous thread shows how bored I am right now.

 

"Competitive PvE" in itself is a pointless and meaningless pissing match made up by people that feel the need to be respected by the community for their accomplishments, rather than just playing the game for the sake of fun.

 

I totally understand the desire to face a seemingly insurmountable challenge and overcome it. I understand that there is a subset of players that find incredible enjoyment in the toughest challenges and the feeling of being stretched outside the norm, and I think these players should be catered to in the form of massively hard encounters. However, I also think that damage metrics are completely unnecessary for these people, and that they will eventually achieve optimal gameplay through trial and error simply because that is how they play.

 

Obviously Bioware does not agree with me in that aspect and is implementing parsable combat logs. Now people are saying that this style of log is unacceptable because it doesn't show you what other people are doing. Again, I will say that this is completely unnecessary. The people that make the most use of this data are not going to to be staring at meters during a fight. They are going to take the gathered data and do lots of math with it when they are not playing, and then try to apply the results to a live encounter.

 

Some people seem to think that a raid will succeed if you have X dps and X hps and X damage reduction. They think that simply swapping out low dps for high dps will make them win. Unfortunately many of the encounters in WoW reinforced this idea. Raid groups are far more than the sum of their parts and while damage meters can be used to optimize certain aspects of gameplay, you will find over and over again that some players are just better at tough raid encounters and will consistently triumph where others will fail, regardless of what the combat log says.

[Ulmius]

The fact that I am posting in such a ridiculous thread shows how bored I am right now.

 

"Competitive PvE" in itself is a pointless and meaningless pissing match made up by people that feel the need to be respected by the community for their accomplishments, rather than just playing the game for the sake of fun.

.

 

Your point starts to fall apart once you've completed a raid multiple times. The excitement of raiding the same place multiple times, especially when you know you can clear the place no problem starts to get stale fast. Having damage meters to compete with other dps keeps things fresh and gives each dpser something to shoot for each week. Does it just come down to a "pissing match" as you put it? Perhaps, but that pissing match gives each person something to shoot for other than, "We've killed these bosses 5 times already, lets just get it over with so we can get our loot and log out." How is something that keeps raiding fresh a bad thing? If you don't want to partake in that, then don't do it. But what's the point in denying others that option?

[Loendar]

I want to see what the hell just happened to my char in pvp... why did i just loose 50% of my hp.

 

Yes to combat logs.

 

And you will see this with the implementation that is being used. Why is that getting lost?

 

They specifically stated that you will see what YOU did and what happened to YOU.

[DarthKhaos]

I am able to see in cold, hard numbers the effects of the various stats I am acumulating on my gear, I can see if I should stack more accuracy because I am missing attacks in pivotal moments

I use common sense. But I guess some need numbers. Because if I'm missing I need more accuracy.

 

its people like you that makes me hate this community even more.

 

his thread was intended for bioware to implement something so basic that every other mmo games have. they boasted this as an mmo yet it does not feel like one.

No this thread was a vote if you want or do not want. So people who also do not want can also be heard.

Edited March 8, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Seregul]

you will find over and over again that some players are just better at tough raid encounters and will consistently triumph where others will fail, regardless of what the combat log says.

 

100% false. A combat log will always tell you who performs better in tough raid encounters.

[Ratajack]

The curious case of an elitist stance against meters..

 

Here's what I'm wondering about the L2P comment: you say that people who need threat meters should L2P, but it's only high dps players that would need a threat meter, right? I mean, if you're low damage, then you probably won't pull threat (unless the tank is really bad). Now, you might say "wait longer" which is fine for ops with a tank you're used to, but in pugs, or when you're really trying to ride the edge of dps, that's not really feasible.

 

I don't really understand what you mean by L2P for people who want threat meters. Do you mean L2DoLessDPS? or L2WaitLongerPointlesslyInFearOfPullingThreat?

What does L2P have to do with threat meters?

 

Statements like these are one of the reasons why so many people are against combat logs and DPS meters. "Riding the edge of DPS" could be interpreted as "I only want to DPS, so I can top the meter". Similarly, "L2DoLessDPS" and L2WaitLongerPointlesslyInFearOfPullingThreat" could be interpreted as "I need to be number one on the DPS meter, and all I want to do is spam my DPS abilities, not think about what might be best for the group survival"

 

 

NO, thank you to anything beyond personal combat logs, damage meters, or threat meters.

[moowart]

Well either way looks like we got em ... now watch it hit the fan.. in other games peeps forced to reroll to fotm (flavor of the month)classes, peeps who normally have no prob getting a group will be shunned, raid groups disallowing certain classes to raid, guilds only allowing peeps who are geared a certain way to play with them, Peeps spending hrs on forums to 'better their own dps' , Peeps being forced to give out details by guilds to show thier combat logs, more elitist gamers putting down newbies to elongate their egos..etc etc etc...

 

Yup fun times great hits from other games coming to a SWTOR forum near you...Now pass the popcorn I hope the excitement lasts....

[SvnStrSlm]

No offense. ut if you are truely a competitive and good guild you shouldnt need any of this. Take pride in beating the game content through wit and skill i stead of crunching numbers to victory. It doesnt make the game better it makes it easier.

[Stupiddrummer]

ITT:

 

an awful lot of people that have never had a raid on farm status.

[Stupiddrummer]

And we're back to this? Is it not obvious to you by now that I play these games to have FUN and not to hear a bunch of elitists brag and or whine about trivial things? Whether it's me or someone else in the group being blasted due to so so DPS is irrelevant. If the groups downing bosses, mr elite DPSer needs to keep his trap shut and let the group have a good time. DPS meters gives him fuel for his fire. That is simply the way it is in games with DPS meters. The whole "You don't want them because you suck!" argument is weak and tired. If that's the case, most of the people in this thread "suck" as most of us don't want them. We don't want all of the drama that comes along with DPS meters just so some people can show off their epeen.

 

The fact is, we're all posting on the forum right now. With that being the case, most of us also probably check out guides on how to properly play our classes. I'm sure most of the anti-meters people in this thread would have perfectly respectable DPS and if not, would know where to go to check to see what they're doing wrong. Most of us aren't worried about whether we'll be bashed for bad DPS. We just don't want every group we have going forward to get bogged down in such things.

 

 

So, there you go. You guys can stop with the "OMG, you just suck! That's why you're anti meters!" arguments. They hold no weight at all.

 

again, if you dont like dps meters, dont use them. I don't see why that isn't a feasible option. I dont care about your performance. I care about MY performance. I want detailed information about what I am doing.

 

edit. I also want that information provided to me in-game. Not alt-tabing to copy a text file into excel

Edited March 8, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[RickmanUK]

Still waiting on a logical answer.

 

Its not Logical too Talk too people and see if they can see whats Happening?

Talking too people tends to get you another perspective. And can help Improve not just your Tactics but others aswell. It might not be as effectant as having a computer Graph/Log, but it can get results. And Those results can often surprise people.

 

Personally i Don't mind Either way. I'd prefer a personal one so i can see if/how i do more damage. Beyond that i can generally tell if somethings not going too work and how too fiddle with things in most flashpoints so far.

 

Example, Black Talon Hard mode. RECENTLY (Ie, that same day) got too level 50 and tried too do my first Hard mode, first and second boss? No problems. Bonus... Tough cookie. Last? DEAR GOD Make it stop.

I took from that that i needed to gear up Quite abit, And having Spoken with afew People who where in it also, Noted were too Start.

 

I Have no Issue with people useing them/having a Global one aslong as it ISN'T Used As Ammunition against people. The Problem that some people have with them isn't that they can help people or the like it is that About Half of the people that use them Either Come Across as Repugant and see nothing beyond the actual Numbers, of those left About half of them deliberatly Cause issues by Being ****ish, and the other actually use them for the purpose that you say they can be good for.

 

Also, I've had both good and Bad experiances with them. So take this Response as what it actually is. Another Opinion... and you know what they say about Opinions...

[Loendar]

that's not true. There is no ingame chat window. Which is what I am complaining about for a while now... it's only a log file.

 

 

Here is the official quote:

 

 

 

If you want to see the combat data you need to do it outside the game, you will not be able to see what just did those 50% damage inside the game.

 

That's what I have been trying to explain but people just keep rambling on about dps meters and all that crap

 

ACT - write a plug-in and use ACT. You continue to assert the same tired argument even though you can do what you want if you put a minimal amount of effort into it.

 

I'm beginning to think you are purposely trolling at this point.

 

You are getting what you profess to want - data regarding your performance. BW isn't feeding it to you in-game but I can guarantee that someone will make a plug-in for ACT that reads that file real-time and presents it to you.

 

Hell - maybe I'll do it just to shut you up.

[mangarrage]

I am certainly not surprised to see so many feel they need crutches to play well.

It is kind of amusing really