I have this conversation with my wife all the time. I tell her it's not the size of the patch that matters, but how good it is.

Not really hard to be bigger than Rift. It's down to around a dozen NA servers now. Rift was a quality game though, which Bioware failed to match.

Don't really matter as long as it's quality.

This game only has itself to fear really.

Yeah, I agree, going with the sub model LOTRO has now really saved that game. It works quite well for them because the game is designed to take advantage of it. I really despised the F2P model until I saw how Turbine implemented it and now think it can be a viable option.

Your wish shall be granted

I don't know anything about WoW, but I'd say there are a lot of players in this game that came from WoW and definitely had bad experiences in this area in that game.

People are here are not posting they want to deny others anything. People are posting that they want to keep certain aspects from the game for the betterment of the game. There is no malice in that desire. edit: grammar.

-shrugs- If it was just one or two people making an anecdotal claim, you would have a point. However, the behavior in this very thread and others like it by the people that want to kick "baddies" and judge their performances is really all the proof one needs to see that nothing is being made up.

I don't know if anyone is really wanting to deny people anything. I think it's more that people want the game to be better and they have a vision of what that should be. The fallout being, it effects the game play of others.

I don't follow.

No, by closed minded I am saying not having the ability to see the validity of the opposing view. You're statement that people are tying to deny you things is just more proof that you only think of yourself in the argument, which is another clue to being closed minded. In the end though you were half right with your original post. The min/maxers will be effected if they do not get their way. In that they do not have a complete picture of everyone's output in an encounter. The other side if they do not get their way will be subject to what can be an emotional and visceral impact on their game if/when the tool is abused. I doubt many min/maxers will quit if the lack of numbers effects them, and I doubt very seriously that any will log off the game in tears. The other side though, I know people will quit and I have seen very adverse effects to players personally and emotionally do to abuse of the tools. Boths sides have made their pitch long ago on this, quite thoroughly. I have a hard time putting any relevance in arguments that do not recognize both sides.

Denying? How do you get someone wanting their preference in a game as them wanting to "deny" anyone anything?

Well, if you intend to argue with a closed mind, that's fine. It will not help you make your case though as half of your argument will be based on an incorrect personal belief. The people that have been arguing about adverse effects to groups due to "meters" are not just making it up. And Bioware recognized it as well. EDIT: You've made some good posts in the past, and I think you'd be better at making your case if you could just see the other sides point of view.

No, it actually influenced Biowares choice to implement the logs the way they did. The argument is not invalid at all. If you choose to ignore it, you're the one that is in the wrong, thus you're assumption for #2 was wrong, making your post conclusion invalid.