Criticism with Positive Ideas? Madness.

[BadgeredMushroom]

You don't need a reward for killing another player.

 

That's the entire point of Ilum, so yes you do. Don't like it? Don't go there. Think logically, then post.

 

Very well written and constructive post OP. I completely agree with your points (and frankly many of the suggested improvements on these boards). This game has a lot of potential but needs a lot of work if its going to withstand the test of time.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Meluna

[Genaya]

OP was excellent, ignore prepubescent trolls.

 

Posting of credentials was justified, people don't want to listen to someone who hasn't experienced the game's end game content giving their opinions on it. People who stated they "stopped reading after that" are merely demonstrating their own ignorance. Don't take it to heart.

 

A lot of good points were made, and I agree that while the levelling/story aspect of ToR beats any other MMO out there, the end-game is still highly unpolished. This is to be expected given it's a new game and Bioware has no MMO experience; hopefully they'll read this thread and take some of your suggestions to heart.

[Tirfin]

So there are a few thiings I would like to remark on:

 

1) I'm not really sure how I feel about the implication that the only thing that will keep the game alive are your suggested changes that, at least to me, cater or are mostly important to the high end player. I'm not suggesting that they aren't good ideas, just questioning their relevance to the average mmo player. I don't know what the average WoW player does in that game, but I wonder if 9 million or so people are all messing with their UI, mastering end game and raiding. I would think that the vast majority of those people are relatively casual. In which case it would seem more prudent for the devs to cater to the casuals that bring in the money, rather than the minority of elitist players.

 

2) Many people have suggested that your "credentials" make you not worth listening to. I disagree. For what you are talking about I think only folks that play at your level can really comment on them. I certainly can't. I only play games for fun. I try to do well, but I'm not gonna spend too much time mastering percentages and grinding to get the uber best stuff. So yea, your creds are important for this analysis, but they do not make you a "more important" customer. Like I said above, if there are more casuals, or carebears giving Bioware money, that should prob be their first priority. That isn't being a fanboy, that is just business.

 

3) Lastly, I am moderately annoyed by the implication that by playing at your level you are somehow above those that enjoy the game for story and gameplay, rather than future endgame and raiding content. I may not be as good as you, but just because I don't devote so much of my life to a game that in 3 weeks I have max leveled and destroyed most of the content doesn't make me less of a player, just a different one. If writing my thesis, doing field work, spending time withfriends and family, and enjoying things other than SWTOR keeps me from being "elite" that doesn't mean I should be held as second class. This attitude has kept me from WOW and if it becomes the prevailing attiude in this community I'll just roll back to more welcoming games.

 

Sorry about typos, no net and typing on my phone.

[TheHauntingBard]

I feel really annoyed.

 

I make a post that lists basic, legitimate criticisms with a game I want to succeed, and I give solutions to them and I ... get overran by a herd of fanboys under the pipe of the Pied Piper of Hamelin...

 

Great community, even WoW's is better.

 

Nice post went through it and while a lot of things have been stated before it's never a bad thing to voice your opinion and share your view.

As much as the obnoxious rude fanboys try to make you believe.

 

It's a shame that a posts like this are getting flamed by these people.

First I thought it was trolling but no this is a part of the community.

 

Dota/WOW/CS communities tend to be more civil, it's a shame really.

It's a nice game it needs some tweaks as for the forum I doubt this will stop.

[livespawn]

 

3) Lastly, I am moderately annoyed by the implication that by playing at your level you are somehow above those that enjoy the game for story and gameplay, rather than future endgame and raiding content. I may not be as good as you, but just because I don't devote so much of my life to a game that in 3 weeks I have max leveled and destroyed most of the content doesn't make me less of a player, just a different one.

 

and that's perfectly fine, I intend to play my alt that way. however, Bioware needs to accommodate to both crowds .

[Occams_Razor]

and that's perfectly fine, I intend to play my alt that way. however, Bioware needs to accommodate to both crowds .

 

But that's his point, Livespawn. The OP insinuated that they need to ignore the more casual crowd and focus on her specific issues to the exclusion of others because she is "uber." I agree that these are significant issues. If Hardmode is as accessible for Operations as it sounds, my semi-casual raiding guild will probably get into that content and I'd rather it was more interesting than it sounds presently.

 

That being said, I think what put most people off was the fact that "credentials" sounded more like a boast about how awesome she is at the game. If she had simply said "I've cleared the hardmode Eternity Vault and most of the hardmode Flashpoints," people would have been more willing to admit that what she's describing sound like real issues. Heck, many people agree on the UI issues, even the self-proclaimed "casuals who will never raid."

 

But the introductory tone, which I firmly believe was intended to be a counter to the inevitable "What do you know about endgame? No one has really gotten into it yet anyway" responses, came across as more insulting than I hope the OP was intending.

 

It's a common misapprehension among humans that all people are pretty much like ourselves. We tend to assume that what we enjoy and what motivates us are universally applicable. There is no reason end game couldn't be improved in many of the ways the OP suggested without damaging the experience of more casual players. Therefore, there is no need to imply that casual players are somehow less valuable or less significant.

[Occams_Razor]

Nice post went through it and while a lot of things have been stated before it's never a bad thing to voice your opinion and share your view.

As much as the obnoxious rude fanboys try to make you believe.

 

It's a shame that a posts like this are getting flamed by these people.

First I thought it was trolling but no this is a part of the community.

 

Dota/WOW/CS communities tend to be more civil, it's a shame really.

It's a nice game it needs some tweaks as for the forum I doubt this will stop.

 

Funny, it seemed to me from the first few pages (yes, I skipped the middle seven) that most people weer objecting, quite calmly and politely to the implication that they were somehow less significant as members of the community. I believe that the condemnation of people objecting to your wording (note: *not* your suggestions) as "fan boys" is quite a bit ruder than anything I read that was "dissenting" from your opinions.

[Jett-Rinn]

Nice post went through it and while a lot of things have been stated before it's never a bad thing to voice your opinion and share your view.

As much as the obnoxious rude fanboys try to make you believe.

 

It's a shame that a posts like this are getting flamed by these people.

First I thought it was trolling but no this is a part of the community.

 

Dota/WOW/CS communities tend to be more civil, it's a shame really.

It's a nice game it needs some tweaks as for the forum I doubt this will stop.

 

I notice that it's okay when the haters are rude and obnoxious though....

 

I think divisive language in both camps needs to stop....I am starting with myself and think everyone should follow suit.

[Tirfin]

and that's perfectly fine, I intend to play my alt that way. however, Bioware needs to accommodate to both crowds .

 

Sorry, didn't comment on this, just implied it. Yes, BW should work on developing for both groups, especially since they are putting endgame content in. Thus the OP is fully justified in addressing issues she sees.

 

I do have a question though, perhaps some folks here can clarify. I understand what mods are for, but I don't understand how they are fair and how the devs can keep the game balanced if mods make the game easier or faster for those that have them? It has been suggested that it is important to allow players to make the game theirs, but it sounds like that will give some folks an unfair advantage in PvP, server firsts, etc.

 

Perhaps BW can get around this by revamping the UI and providing a bit more personalization options. Thoughts anyone?

[BobTheTeepo]

But that's his point, Livespawn. The OP insinuated that they need to ignore the more casual crowd and focus on her specific issues to the exclusion of others because she is "uber." I agree that these are significant issues. If Hardmode is as accessible for Operations as it sounds, my semi-casual raiding guild will probably get into that content and I'd rather it was more interesting than it sounds presently.

 

That being said, I think what put most people off was the fact that "credentials" sounded more like a boast about how awesome she is at the game. If she had simply said "I've cleared the hardmode Eternity Vault and most of the hardmode Flashpoints," people would have been more willing to admit that what she's describing sound like real issues. Heck, many people agree on the UI issues, even the self-proclaimed "casuals who will never raid."

 

But the introductory tone, which I firmly believe was intended to be a counter to the inevitable "What do you know about endgame? No one has really gotten into it yet anyway" responses, came across as more insulting than I hope the OP was intending.

 

It's a common misapprehension among humans that all people are pretty much like ourselves. We tend to assume that what we enjoy and what motivates us are universally applicable. There is no reason end game couldn't be improved in many of the ways the OP suggested without damaging the experience of more casual players. Therefore, there is no need to imply that casual players are somehow less valuable or less significant.

 

Very true post.

 

I think it's odd that the OP belittles casual players, when they're the lifeblood of the game. They're probably over 90% of the population. I'm not a hardcore raider, but I'm certainly a hardcore PvPer (solo PvPer, that is). Even I recognize that the top 5% of a game mean virtually nothing compared to the other 95%.

 

What's messed up is that I agree with most everything this person says. But he boasted, belittled others, and was rude in virtually every single post he made. Through all this, he demands apologies from people just because they didn't read every single one of his posts (true story, really, go back a ways and you can find it). I know that I would certainly leave this poster to his criticisms if he'd simply apologize for the way he treated other people who were being perfectly polite. But he refuses, so what can you do?

 

Ya, also at the start people were being really rude to the OP. But recently, it's been the OP attacking all of us who ask for him to apologize for being condescending and rude. He even admitted to being condescending and still won't apologize, he thinks it was justified -,.,-.

Edited January 1, 2012 by BobTheTeepo

[Cranberries]

Very true post.

 

I think it's odd that the OP belittles casual players, when they're the lifeblood of the game. They're probably over 90% of the population. I'm not a hardcore raider, but I'm certainly a hardcore PvPer (solo PvPer, that is). Even I recognize that the top 5% of a game mean virtually nothing compared to the other 95%.

 

What's messed up is that I agree with most everything this person says. But he boasted, belittled others, and was rude in virtually every single post he made. Through all this, he demands apologies from people just because they didn't read every single one of his posts (true story, really, go back a ways and you can find it). I know that I would certainly leave this poster to his criticisms if he'd simply apologize for the way he treated other people who were being perfectly polite. But he refuses, so what can you do?

 

Ya, also at the start people were being really rude to the OP. But recently, it's been the OP attacking all of us who ask for him to apologize for being condescending and rude. He even admitted to being condescending and still won't apologize, he thinks it was justified -,.,-.

 

The post was an issue to do with end game raiding, while it may unfortunate people think I'm being condescending the reality is I'm speaking the truth. The problems I listed plague the game at level 50, and that's the point. Whether or not you find me to be a dick is irrelevant, and if I need to be "nice" in order to be "listened to" then the community itself is a carebear one which I wont agree with. I'm better than a certain number of people, that much is true and if you disagree and say it's "purely a matter of time" you have no idea what hardcore, the cutting edge of, raiding is like.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Cranberries

[Jett-Rinn]

The post was an issue to do with end game raiding, while it may unfortunate people think I'm being condescending the reality is I'm speaking the truth. The problems I listed plague the game at level 50, and that's the point. Whether or not you find me to be a dick is irrelevant, and if I need to be "nice" in order to be "listened to" then the community itself is a carebear one which I wont agree with. I'm better than a certain number of people, that much is true and if you disagree and say it's "purely a matter of time" you have no idea what hardcore, the cutting edge of, raiding is like.

 

You know you still are posting these rude disrespectful comments despite the fact that several of them have already been removed; one would think you would get the hint.

 

[BobTheTeepo]

The post was an issue to do with end game raiding, while it may unfortunate people think I'm being condescending the reality is I'm speaking the truth. The problems I listed plague the game at level 50, and that's the point. Whether or not you find me to be a dick is irrelevant, and if I need to be "nice" in order to be "listened to" then the community itself is a carebear one which I wont agree with. I'm better than a certain number of people, that much is true and if you disagree and say it's "purely a matter of time" you have no idea what hardcore, the cutting edge of, raiding is like.

 

You can be condescending and truthful, they aren't mutually exclusive. You know, you can state the truth without being rude right? You can state it without boasting too. You know what? You'd be more well received among the intelligent gamers who aren't fanboys but also don't automatically agree with any whiner. People who truly have opinions and are open-minded. It's not only beneficial to you to act with humility and respect, at the end of the day, you also aren't making other people's days a little worse.

 

First off, your "truth" is not truth. You have no way of knowing whether or not you're the only one who has that helmet (you assume without any evidence, only the lack of evidence), or if your guild is the first to have cleared it (same again). That is simply a false statement. I'd dare say, that most of these problems aren't a problem for MOST gamers (except UI, Illum, and responsiveness). In fact, I don't think I even care about the other points you brought up (recalling from memory, may have forgotten a couple). So I wouldn't say they plague level 50, they may plague you, but that's not the case for all level 50s (such as myself), though I haven't done any operations.

 

No one said you need to be, but you SHOULD be. No one needs to be a good person, or show human decency, but you SHOULD do it. Everyone should strive to be the best person they can, but you're flat out trying not to be, even when it makes absolutely no sense. You're acting uncivilized and all it's doing is hurting your cause.

 

Sure, maybe we're all carebears, whatever. If I'm going to be called a carebear for wanting people to be civil and respectful, then I'm proud to be a carebear. Better than being a senseless, illogical, uncivil, immoral, condescending, assumption filled, cutting edge super pro uber leet better than everyone else raider.

[Lord_Itharius]

OP is 100% right. Half the people responding to her thread haven't read the original post.

[Occams_Razor]

The post was an issue to do with end game raiding, while it may unfortunate people think I'm being condescending the reality is I'm speaking the truth. The problems I listed plague the game at level 50, and that's the point. Whether or not you find me to be a dick is irrelevant, and if I need to be "nice" in order to be "listened to" then the community itself is a carebear one which I wont agree with. I'm better than a certain number of people, that much is true and if you disagree and say it's "purely a matter of time" you have no idea what hardcore, the cutting edge of, raiding is like.

 

But the point is that your post, regardless of how accurate or important it is, is being overshadowed because you insist on prefacing it with how great you are and how worthless casual players are. The take-away from this is that you could have achieved the same result without denigrating other folks. And instead of saying "Sorry, I was just trying to demonstrate that I know what I'm talking about," you actually persist in making sure that people understand that not only were you intentionally condescending, but you believe that it was acceptable behavior. Treating people with respect isn't "carebear," it's called common decency.

 

No one is trying to say that you aren't great at this game. In fact, you probably *ARE* better than most people when it comes to playing the game. However, your point and purpose in creating this original post is not served by insisting that people recognize and admire your awesomeness. You are actively damaging your cause by insulting and condescending to others when (without said condescension) most people would have readily agreed with your post. I still agree with it, even though I find your treatment of your fellow community members deplorable.

[LeonBraun]

I've come to TOR from an end game PvE raid guild in WoW as well, and still raid weekly with that guild.

 

You make nice points. One thing I wonder though is does this game have to become WoW in order to thrive?

 

The moment combat logs and ability to parse are added to TOR, it will change this game 100%.

 

It will become WoW where it's all about min/maxxing, one and only way cookie cutter specs, no real flexibility or creative choices on how to play your toon, etc.

 

I have to ask, is that really fun? Many came to SW because it is not WoW, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any enrage timers on any of the bosses currently and as such are DPS meters really needed?

 

If one stays out of the bad and beats the boss abilities, you win in this game. Is that a bad thing?

 

I use Healbot in WoW and would love to see other nice features added to the UI also; it is a fairly universal request atm.

 

So far there is much that can be improved and will with future patches.

 

However,

 

Other things I have to wonder if people have really thought fully out before they ask for them and what it will mean for this game.

[Cranberries]

I have to ask, is that really fun? Many came to SW because it is not WoW, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any enrage timers on any of the bosses currently and as such are DPS meters really needed?

 

Every hardmode Flashpoint boss + normal+ operation has an enrage timer.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Cranberries

[Kurenar]

I can't get over how bad this segment of the TOR community is...It's very similar to having a political discussion with someone who watches fox news all day - ignore facts, spew out whatever talking points hannity gave you for the day, run in illogical circles defending what doesn't need defending and if all else fails focus on symantics until the other person gets tired of dealing with your childishness.

 

Fanboys, you need to take a step back, count to ten, have mommy make you a snack then consider this; people that take the time to offer non-inflammatory criticism in a forum are trying to make this game better, not just tear it down. While your passion is admirable, it could be used more constructively than regurgitating the same talking points in every other thread:

 

"go back to wow"

"you are the problem not the game"

"you are just spoiled by X game"

"X feature/improvement is not needed" - never giving reasons why

"fixing this bug won't fix people"

"by that logic everyone should just get everything for free" <insert all other ridiculous strawman arguments>

Etc etc etc etc

 

 

 

 

 

 

Either way, BW doesn't need you to defend them, they're not going to give you a moonbeam color crystal in game for refuting any assertion that TOR is not perfect.

[Excedrin]

I can't get over how bad this segment of the TOR community is...It's very similar to having a political discussion with someone who watches fox news all day - ignore facts, spew out whatever talking points hannity gave you for the day, run in illogical circles defending what doesn't need defending and if all else fails focus on symantics until the other person gets tired of dealing with your childishness.

 

Fanboys, you need to take a step back, count to ten, have mommy make you a snack then consider this; people that take the time to offer non-inflammatory criticism in a forum are trying to make this game better, not just tear it down. While your passion is admirable, it could be used more constructively than regurgitating the same talking points in every other thread:

 

"go back to wow"

"you are the problem not the game"

"you are just spoiled by X game"

"X feature/improvement is not needed" - never giving reasons why

"fixing this bug won't fix people"

"by that logic everyone should just get everything for free" <insert all other ridiculous strawman arguments>

Etc etc etc etc

 

 

 

 

 

 

Either way, BW doesn't need you to defend them, they're not going to give you a moonbeam color crystal in game for refuting any assertion that TOR is not perfect.

 

All you can do is point out how ridiculously absurd some of the assertions made on this forum are, and take solace in the knowledge that Bioware developers don't think like the average fanboy on this website.

 

They'll continue to defend any potential imperfection, even claiming it's a boon to the game. They aren't defending Bioware, they're defending their own judgement. If the game is a flop they made a poor judgement and so they rush to attack anything that suggests such. It's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with. I mean, if you think not having a combat log is a good thing all I can say is that it's great that you aren't developing MMOs.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Excedrin

[Runealdo]

You may have fantastic points that are spot on and full of relevant constructive logic. However let me be the first to say that I got to this point

 

 

and could care less what you had to say after that. Try removing it and maybe you wont be treated like a self centered pre-modonna brat.

 

 

 

What I wanted to say.

[ajjw]

They'll continue to defend any potential imperfection, even claiming it's a boon to the game.

Yep. My favourite is with the Ability Delay thread that no doubt everyone has seen, where according to some trolls it raises the skill ceiling of the game.

 

Yeah. Good luck explaining to your Raid as MT that yes, you know you were supposed to defensive cooldown for X ability but unfortunately you were CCed by your own parry animation. Clearly a L2P issue. Oh, wait.

 

T_T It's ridiculous.

[Foxtrotmikelima]

I have a life, thank you very much. I raid 2 days a week, the rest of the week I can do whatever I like with my time. Including doing university dissertation material in between telling people I have no life, I infact do have a life.

 

This is the attitude that kills games right here, "you did something fast so you have no life."

 

LMAO, no the attitude killing games is the 'Elitests' that think their opinion is going to save the game from some awful failure. When infact your gamestyle is not what this game garners to at all.

[Boundd]

I feel really annoyed.

 

I make a post that lists basic, legitimate criticisms with a game I want to succeed, and I give solutions to them and I ... get overran by a herd of fanboys under the pipe of the Pied Piper of Hamelin...

 

Great community, even WoW's is better.

 

This is why;

 

With that said - these are my credentals, and why I believe I have a voice that should be listened to:

Edited January 2, 2012 by Boundd

[Cranberries]

Yep. My favourite is with the Ability Delay thread that no doubt everyone has seen, where according to some trolls it raises the skill ceiling of the game.

 

Yeah. Good luck explaining to your Raid as MT that yes, you know you were supposed to defensive cooldown for X ability but unfortunately you were CCed by your own parry animation. Clearly a L2P issue. Oh, wait.

 

T_T It's ridiculous.

 

This.

 

Dropping down after the intro cinematic to Bonethrasher only to have your entire raid cleaved because the drop down point is bugged. Bioware need to understand you do not need cinematics to make a raid exciting, Kael'thas introduction? Kil'Jaeden introduction? No cinematics, yet truly epic introductions.

[Occams_Razor]

I've come to TOR from an end game PvE raid guild in WoW as well, and still raid weekly with that guild.

 

You make nice points. One thing I wonder though is does this game have to become WoW in order to thrive?

 

The moment combat logs and ability to parse are added to TOR, it will change this game 100%.

 

It will become WoW where it's all about min/maxxing, one and only way cookie cutter specs, no real flexibility or creative choices on how to play your toon, etc.

 

I have to ask, is that really fun? Many came to SW because it is not WoW, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any enrage timers on any of the bosses currently and as such are DPS meters really needed?

 

If one stays out of the bad and beats the boss abilities, you win in this game. Is that a bad thing?

 

I use Healbot in WoW and would love to see other nice features added to the UI also; it is a fairly universal request atm.

 

So far there is much that can be improved and will with future patches.

 

However,

 

Other things I have to wonder if people have really thought fully out before they ask for them and what it will mean for this game.

 

While I don't disagree necessarily that retaining some individuality from WoW is critical, I think ignoring functional aspects of Blizzar's game simply to maintain an independent identity is a flawed perspective. Take what works and leave out what doesn't would be a better proposition. In particular, I think that there are several things that Blizzard got right or allowed mods to "get right" with regard to end-game content. It seems unreasonable to leave out these features in some effort to maintain some illusion of extreme differentiation.