Criticism with Positive Ideas? Madness.

[AkikoKittel]

I do not care about small bugs that stop some level 23 Sith Marauder from jumping from 1 hill to another, that's irrelevant. MMOs are about the end game content. If you disagree you should play a single player game because MMOs do not survive unless end game content is both a product of quality and quantity.

No.

 

The game starts at level 1, whether you like it or not. This is not Warcraft.

 

I say this as a former hardcore WoW raider (school > raiding), the game gets boring if it's all centered around endgame. New players are not going to stick around long if their leveling process is a buggy mess.

 

If you disagree, you should go back to Counterstrike. Elitists such as yourself will not be missed.

 

Good day.

[BobTheTeepo]

I don't care what people call me, words are just words. What is more frightening are the actions associated with such words. As long as I'm not being attacked physically, feel free to attack me mentally. Words are used mainly to put points across, weapons are used to put across points ... through people.

 

See, here's your HUGE problem that you can't seem to understand. Just because you feel a certain way about something, that doesn't in any way mean others feel that way, or that they should feel that way. Words hurt most normal people, and rightfully so.

 

Just because you don't care about a word insulting you, doesn't mean you should feel free to insult others. That's like saying you're fine with getting cut by a knife (because let's say, you're a masochist), that doesn't mean everyone else is fine with being cut -- or should be fine with getting cut.

 

Furthermore, your opinions -- for the most part -- revolve around your hardcore raiding self. Do you understand how few people are hardcore raiders? Also, I'd argue that hardcore raiders do nothing for the game, compared to average players. They're generally stuck up, discriminating, and just all around jerks who do more harm than good.

 

I'd also dare say, that you are all these things. You refer to other people as below you, lesser than you, because they may not be (or in fact may be better, you shouldn't assume like that) as good at raiding as you. Let me tell you, I've been max level in over a dozen games, I've led guilds (Inner Circle in Vindictus, name was Arius, and BobTheGirl in LOA) in F2P games that have hundreds of people (that's impressive for a F2P), I've been the highest level in a game that never made it to max level (LOA), I've been a faction leader of a faction with thousands of people (LongHaoKan, TS2, if anyone rolled Guan like 2 years ago or so).

 

If anything, my credentials are far more impressive than yours, just because you're impressive in a certain area, doesn't mean you're better than ANYONE else. You know what though, does that in any way objectively make my opinion more or less correct? Nope.

 

If you'd simply apologize for your rude and elitist comments, all of this would probably end. But instead you defend them, claim they're okay, and in fact embrace them. You know what you most remind me of? A racist. White people were more intelligent than black people after all (due to superior education), therefore black people were lesser. You white people (the hardcore raiders) are entitled to more than the lowly black people, because you think your contribution is larger than theirs, which unless you pay more than them, it's not. Honestly, if you represent hardcore raiders, I seriously hope I never ever see one again. Note that I don't actually think black people were lesser, I'm saying that's what this sounds like.

 

"If you speak to most people in a raiding guild on WoW they would've heard of the following guild names: Paragon, Method, Ensidia, Envy, For the Horde, Premonition, Blood Legion, Slashcry (not so prominent now), Numen. Just so many top tier guilds who generate publicity via their accomplishments."

 

Speak to anyone outside of WoW (such as myself) and no one will know any of those guilds. That's some mighty publicity, clearly very beneficial to the game overall.

 

1. The notice or attention given to someone or something by the media.

2. Public exposure; notoriety.

 

The public you're referring to, I assume, is the non WoW crowd.

 

"A good argument requires some form of authority. You don't listen to The Sun (UK newspaper) about politics if you're intelligent, some people do but they lack the aforementioned trait."

 

Actually, a good argument has no relation to authority. You can have no authority and have a good argument, you can have a bad argument with authority etc.

 

We have good evidence that the Sun isn't good to listen to (If that's true, I'm American so I wouldn't know). That's entirely different than the Sun not having evidence that it's good to listen to. Failed analogy.

 

Just so we can be clear that you are being rude and elitist:

 

"I get overran by a herd of fanboys"

 

"so it is up to the cutting edge players to make the game better" (Such as yourself)

 

"Would you listen to me giving a lecture on nuclear physics when I know nothing or would you listen to the professor who has a PhD in nuclear physics? Really. It's not a hard concept. If me being better than you hurts you, then I'm sorry."

 

"Not really. You should listen to me because I've done it and thus know what I'm talking about? I think I made you angry with my criticisms. Sorry.

 

THIS GAME IS PERFECT." - (It's worth stating, just because you've done something, doesn't mean you have the correct objective or even widely shared opinion on the subject)

 

"SWTOR didn't want to call it "easy mode", but "normal mode" is very easy. Anyone can do it" (Rude if you consider that some people can't do it, pointing that out is rude, no need to be rude when it's uncalled for)

 

"I believe a game should be played to appease the best in it because the best players keep a game going" (Aside from this being an OBVIOUSLY false statement, that top 1% of America don't keep it going, the other 99% do, they're just the biggest relative contributors)

 

"If you found the tone condescending then you should get better so you don't find it condescending." (Yes because, if everyone else in the world thinks I'm insane, they need to change! Not me!)

 

"The good players already have taken me seriously." (I most certainly do not take you seriously. Your opinions I share, but you are nothing more than a condescending elitist *ERROR, REDUNDANCY* *OVERRIDE* to me)

 

"Picking apart legitimacy because I'm better than someone is like practicing tabloid media antics."

 

"Authority only helps fuel an argument, the problem is people are jealous of authority and 'being worse'"

 

I respected your first post well enough. It seemed reasonable, besides the obvious boasting. But the further you go on and on defending your position, the further down you sink. Hope you enjoy the game, also hope you don't take too much offense from this. All I hope is that you think about how you're acting -- which is like a 12 year old who is really good at video games, and lets everyone know it.

 

But if you want a discussion, I refer you to my earlier post. I'm qualified to discuss the problems you brought up, so feel free to look at it if you want a good discussion.

[BobTheTeepo]

Am I really the only one who read the OP and didn't mind the "credentials" part? In fact, personally, I'd listen to someone with credentials over someone with no credentials (and bad spelling) in most circumstances.

 

I agree that credentials are good, but him being the first to clear something, and him being the only one to have a certain helmet, do not qualify as credentials (unless the topic is about who did the first of something, or about equipment). I tend to not believe people when they use an important topic to let people know how awesome they are.

[Vitiatix]

MMO's were originally designed for the hardcore players. Casual players ruined MMORPG's forever. They feel like time invested shouldn't matter, even though the point is improving your character repeatedly, endgame, and so forth. Edited January 1, 2012 by Vitiatix

[Dezzi]

Why do you need credentials for your opinion to matter?

[Cranberries]

I'd also dare say, that you are all these things. You refer to other people as below you, lesser than you, because they may not be (or in fact may be better, you shouldn't assume like that) as good at raiding as you. Let me tell you, I've been max level in over a dozen games, I've led guilds (Inner Circle in Vindictus, name was Arius, and BobTheGirl in LOA) in F2P games that have hundreds of people (that's impressive for a F2P), I've been the highest level in a game that never made it to max level (LOA), I've been a faction leader of a faction with thousands of people (LongHaoKan, TS2, if anyone rolled Guan like 2 years ago or so).

 

When discussing end game, the only credentals or experience that matters revolves around end game. That's not a hard concept. It's unlike anything else because you can only give a proper opinion of it if you've completed all of it. Sure, for some normal mode may be "hard" but if you've done normal mode, hard mode and nightmare mode then the perspective of "normal mode" becomes "ridiculously easy" - and that's what it truly is.

 

If people would like to challenge me and ask me what I've accomplished in other games, I'd gladly show them my most cherished WoW achievement: something only 19 guilds in the world got before the achievement was made a Feat of Strength and unobtainable. Raiding isn't just about your time, it's about everyone elses time. If Bioware waste the time of 16 people because of buggy content, that is something that deserves a complaint. Arguing against that is ridiculous. Just because "you haven't experienced it" doesn't make it fine, any less broken or buggy. You might think it's silly cherishing achievements in a game, but I care about stuff I invest time in and perform to my best in. Just like I expect people to cherish any type of work they do.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Cranberries

[BobTheTeepo]

MMO's were originally designed for the hardcore players. Casual players ruined MMORPG's forever. They feel like time invested shouldn't matter, even though the point is improving your character repeatedly, endgame, and so forth.

 

I respectfully disagree and feel quite the opposite. Games were meant to be fun, they were meant for people to enjoy in whatever form possible. Casuals enjoy the game a certain way, and hardcore's do the opposite. The difference is, hardcore gamers exclude casuals from doing activities (raids, joining the guild etc.). While it's certainly their right, it's still quite annoying. Games should be accessible on all levels, hardcore and casual, and should have plenty of content for both.

[Kabloosh]

MMO's were originally designed for the hardcore players. Casual players ruined MMORPG's forever. They feel like time invested shouldn't matter, even though the point is improving your character repeatedly, endgame, and so forth.

 

Time invested does not always mean you should be better then others.

 

I don't understand how you can find doing the same task hundreds of times enjoyable. You mine as well just get a manufacturing job or work as a cashier. If you like redundancy so much then those should be your dream jobs there. Mine as well get paid for it while you are at it.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Kabloosh

[Cranberries]

Time invested does not always mean you should be better then others.

 

I don't understand how you can find doing the same task hundreds of times enjoyable. You mine as well just get a manufacturing job or work as a cashier. If you like redundancy so much then those should be your dream jobs there. Mine as well get paid for it while you are at it.

 

You only do stuff over and over, and over and over and over if you enjoy it. To do so otherwise would be masochistic.

[Vitiatix]

I respectfully disagree and feel quite the opposite. Games were meant to be fun, they were meant for people to enjoy in whatever form possible. Casuals enjoy the game a certain way, and hardcore's do the opposite. The difference is, hardcore gamers exclude casuals from doing activities (raids, joining the guild etc.). While it's certainly their right, it's still quite annoying. Games should be accessible on all levels, hardcore and casual, and should have plenty of content for both.

 

There were plenty of casual online games to play until they thought they could try to be cool and invade the MMORPG scene. Do you think Ultima Online or Everquest was made for casual carebears?

 

Time invested does not always mean you should be better then others.

 

I don't understand how you can find doing the same task hundreds of times enjoyable. You mine as well just get a manufacturing job or work as a cashier. If you like redundancy so much then those should be your dream jobs there. Mine as well get paid for it while you are at it.

 

Video games are the same over and over no matter how you look at it. Take FPS games, MW3 or BF3. Do you cry because you get the same maps or have to use the same guns? As I said, MMO's were designed for hardcore players who wanted to spend lots of time on them. This is a fact, not disputed by early developers.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Vitiatix

[Kabloosh]

There were plenty of casual online games to play until they thought they could try to be cool and invade the MMORPG scene. Do you think Ultima Online or Everquest was made for casual carebears?

 

 

 

Video games are the same over and over no matter how you look at it. Take FPS games, MW3 or BF3. Do you cry because you get the same maps or have to use the same guns? As I said, MMO's were designed for hardcore players who wanted to spend lots of time. This is a fact, not disputed by early developers.

 

The difference is PvP provides an ever expanding challenge for the same thing. What worked last week might not work for the next week so you gotta change it up a little bit from time to time. PvE is like playing Megaman. Once you figure out what to do and execute it all becomes a breeze.

 

Nothing really changes except it just gets easier as your character becomes stronger with better gear and the content gets nerfed to allow access to other players. By then the hardcore shouldn't even care less simply because they have already cleared the content as it is and it doesn't hurt anyone to allow those who either can't dedicate the time or those who are quite literally "not that good" to experience the content. Blizzard summed it up perfectly that its kind of stupid to spend gobs of development time on something that only 5% of the population would ever experience.

[BobTheTeepo]

When discussing end game, the only credentals or experience that matters revolves around end game. That's not a hard concept. It's unlike anything else because you can only give a proper opinion of it if you've completed all of it. Sure, for some normal mode may be "hard" but if you've done normal mode, hard mode and nightmare mode then the perspective of "normal mode" becomes "ridiculously easy" - and that's what it truly is.

 

If people would like to challenge me and ask me what I've accomplished in other games, I'd gladly show them my most cherished WoW achievement: something only 19 guilds in the world got before the achievement was made a Feat of Strength and unobtainable. Raiding isn't just about your time, it's about everyone elses time. If Bioware waste the time of 16 people because of buggy content, that is something that deserves a complaint. Arguing against that is ridiculous. Just because "you haven't experienced it" doesn't make it fine, any less broken or buggy. You might think it's silly cherishing achievements in a game, but I care about stuff I invest time in and perform to my best in. Just like I expect people to cherish any type of work they do.

 

First paragraph is somewhat irrelevant. You ignored my point entirely. But I'll say this, you can give a correct opinion even if you're not qualified to. Your qualifications or authority only make it so other people should feel you can be trusted or are qualified to state your opinion. It has absolutely no bearing on whether or not what you're saying is correct -- they're completely separate.

 

Second paragraph is the same, you ignored my point entirely, not to mention I don't appreciate you attacking straw men. I listed my credentials to show how little it mattered.

 

I never said you shouldn't cherish achievements -- to each his I own. You're free to do as you will and feel as you will about what you do. But saying others are less than you, demeaning them, is offensive and uncalled for.

[BunnyMage]

Clearing bosses does not give you "credentials" nor does it make your opinion better than any other player. Thinking such is just pompous and juvenile.

 

Go back to World of Warcraft and try to impress people with your gear scores.

[belleflop]

Well thought out post pertaining to the glaring issues that will break this game in half once the majority of players get to max level. You even provided solutions to the problems and expressed concern that, the things that are absent or broken now have actually been launched with another game (rift), and even those features didn't help the game survive. Ignore the fanboys or the people wanting to argue semantics of words. I agree 100% with your post, and hopefully so does Bioware, and HOPEFULLY they are fixing all this ASAP! Otherwise this game will be just like all the other failures 3 months from now.

[doodirock]

Just logged in to say this post is amazing. I covers EVERYTHING I think is wrong with the game. Also, just to point out I'm NOT a hardcore raider. I have however raided a ton of MMO content from WoW to EQ and more on a casual schedule. Everything the OP says is spot on, well thought out, and only stands to BENEFIT the game.

 

I think this is a distinction a lot of fan boys or trolls miss when reading posts like this. The OP isn't saying they don't like the game. Instead they only want the game to be better! It's a post aimed at fixing the glaring issues that need fixing. Saying, "oh its fine go back to WoW" is extremely short sided and without merit. This game has bugs and we as a community should come together and actively discuss them.

 

Bravo OP

Edited January 1, 2012 by doodirock

[Kekuhaupio]

Forget the New Year, I've already rang in the New Year with my boyfriend. Now, while he is contempt I am going to write up a very long winded post

 

I believe/hope you ment "content" as heaven forbide that your BF would be "Contempt" with you

 

Contempt:

 

a : the act of despising : the state of mind of one who despises : disdain

b : lack of respect or reverence for something

 

yes im trolling HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

[Shalynn_Bast]

Can put this in the pile of " Im 50 I know what im doing and listen to me now "

 

Every Carebear on the forums complain about all this stuff, this is the same stuff, just in a soapbox format.

[ArmchairMagpie]

[...]

- Make raid frames a complete carbon copy of Grid. Grid works. It just does, Grid works because raid frames are needed for healers, and that is all. In this game, at the top tier of raiding, there is no need for a DPSer to have operation frames anywhere in view or even look at them and the same can be said for tanks. Thus, make raid frames in the style of Grid to suit the need of the healers who actually need them. Rift uses a Grid style raid frame setup and it works well.

 

I agree on that in basic. Although in WoW I eventually switched from Grid to Vuhdo because its unified code structure is better and there's no 3rd party add-on dependency

But since this doesn't matter in this context anymore I will just repeat that I agree.

[Daeborn]

This isn't WoW. If you wish to make it WoW don't. If you miss WoW go play WoW.

[Cranberries]

This isn't WoW. If you wish to make it WoW don't. If you miss WoW go play WoW.

 

I'm trying to make the game better. If that requires it using features from WoW, shouldn't it be encouraged? Just because Ferarri use a carbon-fibre body work to make their cars lighter, does that mean other car manufacturers shouldn't?

[ajjw]

I feel really annoyed.

 

I make a post that lists basic, legitimate criticisms with a game I want to succeed, and I give solutions to them and I ... get overran by a herd of fanboys under the pipe of the Pied Piper of Hamelin...

 

Great community, even WoW's is better.

The "community" of this game is a complete and utter failure. All the fanboys repeatedly spam out "Go back to WoW!", "Stop being so entitled!", etc etc ad nauseum. They slate you for stating your credentials, but are oxymorons because would also slate you for not posting them. It's a complete and utter joke.

 

On topic: I agree with the things you say. Your post is well structured, thought out and concise. Try to ignore the idiots on these forums, else you'll quickly lose either your sanity, faith in the human race or a combination of the two.

 

Edit: I would also love for the default Raid Frames to mimic Grid. As you said, Grid works. It just does. I'd much rather have a modding API released so we can develop our own AddOns, but if that doesn't happen then they should definitely consider making Grid the standard.

 

This isn't WoW. If you wish to make it WoW don't. If you miss WoW go play WoW.

People with attitudes similar to this need to ****. Seriously, your ignorance and naivety blows my mind. Step back for a minute and think - These suggestions are made because we want to improve the game, not go back to the game we've been playing for 7 years.

 

We suggest objective improvements. Stop letting yourself get stuck in subjectivity.

Edited January 1, 2012 by ajjw

[Cranberries]

 

Edit: I would also love for the default Raid Frames to mimic Grid. As you said, Grid works. It just does. I'd much rather have a modding API released so we can develop our own AddOns, but if that doesn't happen then they should definitely consider making Grid the standard.

 

Rift have a grid style raid layout and it works fantastic. I love Grid, it makes healing so much more enjoyable on all levels of play.

[Graydon]

these are my credentals, and why I believe I have a voice that should be listened to:

- Valor rank 57

- Cleared 4/5 EV on Hardmode

- Cleared 5/5 EV on Normal Mode

- Involved in the world first kill of Bonethrasher on Nightmare difficulty. Currently the only BH in the world with this item

- Cleared every Hardmode Flashpoint (except The Foundry as ... well it's bugged).

 

You forgot to list Low Self Esteem.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Graydon

[Swift]

I feel really annoyed.

 

I make a post that lists basic, legitimate criticisms with a game I want to succeed, and I give solutions to them and I ... get overran by a herd of fanboys under the pipe of the Pied Piper of Hamelin...

 

Great community, even WoW's is better.

 

Next time you should probably not preface it with paragraphs that are essentially saying "Im better than you so thats why you should be listening to what im saying".

 

As good as your post was, your introduction pretty much ensured that 90% of people would not even read past your 'credentials' list.

[Forgon]

Next time you should probably not preface it with paragraphs that are essentially saying "Im better than you so thats why you should be listening to what im saying".

 

As good as your post was, your introduction pretty much ensured that 90% of people would not even read past your 'credentials' list.

 

This.

 

Read your points and had to give you credit that whether I agree or not, you gave constructive criticism. However, just saying that places you in more of an "elitist" like category and discredits you.