Firstly, I wasn't referencing what Qui-Gon said about the living force. I was referencing how he disobeys the Jedi council and many consider him to be a grey jedi. He *may* be one who believes at Satele/Marr do. Secondly, you don't have to assume everything is lies and half truths, you simply don't have to assume they're truths. Just because you don't go one way, doesn't mean you have to go the other way. I'm skeptical of the notion that this middle path is the true/correct path, that does not mean I say definitively it's not. Instead: I say there may be truth to both sides, one side, or neither side (though the last seems very unlikely). What Bioware is trying to do is tell a story from the perspective of the characters. You're ASSUMING (a dangerous road indeed) Bioware is certainly trying to convey something, but perhaps it's better to open your mind to the notion that they're not making a defiinitive statement. Again, just because the in between road has some truth to it, doesn't mean it excludes the others. I highly doubt Bioware is violating the majority of cannon about the Light and Dark being separate to push their own ideas of Star Wars lore.

Just my 2 cents (which others have touched on): This isn't a new concept in the Star Wars universe, in fact Qui-Gon Jinn himself may have believed it (iirc). Firstly I'd say: remember when playing games to not take the exposition from characters as facts of the universe, but rather as facts from the characters perspective of the universe. When Satele says "there is no light or dark" (paraphrasing), you shouldn't take it as "okay so in ToR, definitively, there is no light or dark" but rather "in ToR Satele believes there is no light or dark". Secondly, remember, that not every truth is fully understood from one statement or perspective. For example, it could be that *in some sense* there is no light or dark, only the force. That doesn't mean there isn't a light or dark in any sense whatsoever. Notice, when you're given character dialogue options in the final confrontation with Arcann, you can choose to say you're beyond light and dark... or not... Your character doesn't even have to buy what Satele/Marr/Valkorian are saying. Finally, saying that Zakuul has found "another way" doesn't imply it's the only way. In fact, it literally implies there is at least two ways present (one prior, light and dark, then one after, neither/neutral/whatever). Tl;dr: No one should take it necessarily to be the truth in ToR that there is no light and dark. Your character can believe that, Satle/Marr/Valkorian can believe that, even YOU can believe that, that doesn't mean it's necessarily true. It's character's opinions.

It happens multiple times a day, that's the point. If this were some big singular thing, this would be a serious issue, but it's not, so I'm not convinced it is.

A better system, IMO, would be to get a set amount of tokens from each rank (getting more as you're higher command rank) and being able to use these tokens to buy specifics pieces from vendors. BUT, keep the RNG gear as well, so that when you get something you need it's a pleasant surprise, but overall you still make progress *no matter what*. This is a way RNG can enhance the gaming experience without making you feel like you've made no progress when you don't get something you need. This hybrid model seems like it would be a best of both worlds sort of setup to me. Some of the excitement of RNG with the knowledge you're making steady progress of a token system. Edit: Lol didn't realize the person right above me had beaten me to it. gg

I got Revan Reborn mask so 10/10 was happy thanks rngods.

Not calling you a liar, but I hope you understand that I'll wait to see if this is the case myself.

Please share the proof that what currently is on this PTS is actually going to be that way at launch. Last I checked, such things are usually very volatile and subject to change in most video games.

Wrong that it's bad for the game. You feel ill about it, not for some arbitrary personal reason, but because you think it's bad for the game or bad for your experience with it. Unlike me? Dude how many times do I have to say I've pvp'd since launch lol, I'm a closed alpha tester, you've done almost nothing that I haven't done (except ops and maybe RP). Seriously man, you make all kinds of claims without any backing. Like I've said, you've already made up your mind. Even if it were great and did belong in the game, you've already said you won't even consider it. No point in discussing whether it's good or not for the game with someone who won't even consider it. For the record, I argue against pure RNG gearing. I've said so in many threads already that I'm not especially happy with that particular decision. But go ahead and keep labeling me as the bad guy because I think *YOUR* personal reasons are weak and poorly considered. I don't have to be against you (and I'm not in this case) to believe that your reasoning is wrong. Stop seeing me as the enemy and realize we're both just players that want the game to do better. The difference is, I don't want Bioware damaging their own game because I won't consider the possibility that my pre-conceived notions of how bad/good a feature is may *MAY* be wrong. The difference between you and me is that I control my emotions. I have pre-conceived notions, but I stay open to the option that they may be wrong. I'm willing to wait to see if something is bad, and then I'll start criticizing it. I'm skeptical about pure RNG right now. If they overtune how long it takes, it will be disastrous. They're walking a fine line, one that I hope they can manage. But, I'm actually open to the possibility that they can show me I'm wrong about this. I'll wait and see, remaining skeptical but open.

What does that have to do with anything? I could know much more than you in spite of this. You're trying to brag for absolutely no reason lol. I'm saying I've been here for what you describe so I remember what you're saying, I'm not trying to boast lol. Though to be fair, I don't even know what that stat is or means. So it seems you do know at least 1 thing more than me. None of what you've said gives evidence your claims are true. We're talking whether we know the devs motives, or not, and for that you'll need evidence.

Like I've said many times, even if we grant that it's a slight improvement for non-rng, that's not the point I'm addressing. The point I'm addressing is complaining so harshly about it, as Tux is doing in many threads. The RNG system could be made to be not a big issue whatsoever, and thus not worth that level of complaint or closed-mindedness. That said, I'd like to address your (I believe incorrect) notions from two perspectives that I don't know if you've considered. 1) RNG and steady means of acquiring gear are not mutually exclusive. The outcry against RNG is futile and ill-conceived because the problem people really have is it being RNG exclusively. It's entirely possible Bioware could add something LIKE data crystals as a set amount per crate that you get that can be traded for specific pieces of gear... yet still have gear drop from the crates. So the notion that the problem is with RNG is a demonstrably false one, the problem is with RNG being exclusive. Thus, outcry like Tux's against RNG, is literally complaining about the wrong thing. 2) There are benefits to having an RNG system (either exclusively or in a complimentary style) over a steady token or gold type of system. A - Random loot drops with the chance at awesome stuff is often very satisfying. There's a reason why most MMOs these days sell things like SW:toR's packs: because gambling is fun. The vast majority of us like that rush, even if it burns us when our luck goes the other way. B - Bioware can make the TTA (time to acquire) for the gear be theoretically shorter if it's RNG than otherwise. Since RNG can burn you heavily, Bioware would have to err on the side of caution, meaning with the RNG system you'd have excellent chances of obtaining your gear more quickly at the cost of you not being able to specify which piece of gear. So let's say Bioware wants to have a full set gear be obtained, on average, in 10 hours. For simplicity's sake, let's just say that you need 10 pieces of gear making it 1 piece per hour on average for both systems. Since an RNG gives you many shots at the individual piece of gear you want, this would mean you're going to get more pieces (some useful, some useless) per hour. To make that average out properly, that would mean the system would have to end up working such that you get more of your pieces earlier. This is because, say you have 9 pieces of gear, needing your 10th. The 10th will take longer on average than the previous 9 because where before you had 10 individual things you wanted, all having an equal chance of dropping, now you only have 1. So to average out how it will take longer for you to get your final pieces of gear, they must make your earlier pieces of gear be quicker. This means people can get to a place of minimum effectiveness to do their content more quickly than otherwise. Ultimately, my overall preference is for a hybrid system. I like some RNG for that gambling aspect, but I would like some tokens to assure that--if RNG doesn't go my way--I can get what I want. But that's not a complaint against the RNG, the RNG is not the villain, it's the exclusivity.

I don't like the RNG aspect much myself, but it depends mostly on how they handle it. Being an experienced MMO vet, I know for a fact RNG gearing in games can be completely fine. It depends, largely, on two factors: 1) How often do you get command crates? 2) What are the chances, for any given person, that their desired gear will be in said command crates? 3) How much progress does disintegration get you to your next command crate? These are the things I think we *must* know before we make an absolute decision on the matter. If command crates come often, with a high likelihood of giving you what you mean (e.g. giving multiple pieces of gear per crate, or giving "weight" to pieces of gear you haven't accrued yet etc...). When I've seen how this plays out is when I'll know if I hate the system or not. If it's crazy long to get specific pieces of gear, I'll be the first asking for it to be removed. Until then, for me, I prefer to withhold judgment until I have good enough evidence.

This right here is a shining example of exactly what I'm talking about. You're not even open to the possibility that you're wrong, and thus any evidence or reasoning that suggests you MAY (not are, MAY) be wrong is completely and totally ignored. Too many in this community have that attitude, and it's damaging to this game.

I don't think it sounds perfect, but I largely agree. People jump the gun around here way too much. Have patience. Leaping to conclusions as people have been doing is unwise and unhealthy, you condemn the system before even trying it just because it sounds bad. Not giving things a chance is just being closed-minded. Drives me insane.

I'm getting the idea that we still have no idea how long it will take. Longer doesn't imply how much longer. You still don't know. That's my point. Skepticism, open-mindedness. Wait til we have enough information. Initially it will be a bit rough, yeah, Bioware should look at some way to transition pvp players properly I think. Not really to do with what I was discussing though. I don't like RNG gearing myself, you're preaching to the choir. I don't hate it mind you. I won't be bothered by it like most people I suppose, and I'm overall very positive about the swap to GC, but I agree with you here.

I already said that I have issues with an RNG system. 100% is better in my eyes, yes. I would personally prefer a non RNG system. That does not mean the world is ending. That does not mean the RNG system is horrible. We still don't know how it will all play out and many people on here on wildly jumping to conclusions. That's what I'm saying, voice your concerns in a reasonable manner but don't overstate what you don't know lol (not directed at you specifically, just generally). Fair enough. As I've said, I've got my own concerns. As long as we don't all jump to conclusions and pretend the world is ending because of it, I'll have no issue with what most of you are saying.

Evidence for your assertion, please. I remember the problem being that, when you failed, it was so brutal because of how much time it took to try the RNG again and how long the gearing took in general (I was an at launch PvPer, just so you're aware, been here since alpha testing). Adding more exclamation points doesn't make you more correct. It just means you need to learn to chill.

99% vs 100% means, within the content of gearing, the chances of you ever actually failing to gear is minimal. Even if you do, you simply retry it once and it will work. Meaning, the failure wouldn't be so annoying because you know it will take very little time to rectify it. Your frustration may be higher if it fails, but it's so unlikely to fail it's unlikely you'll be frustrated.

Higher likelihoods, for one. The ability to disintegrate so the item isn't worthless, for another. Turns out there's a few differences this time around. What's your point? Might want to google what Bulverism means before you go any further. Yet again, fallacy. Just because RNG in one instance did not work out does not mean it won't work out in the future. You have to deal with the specifics of WHY it did not work out, and show that those apply to this instance as well. It is EXACTLY like me saying "well my car flew off a cliff last time I took a drive, why would it be any different this time?" This is improper use of inductive reasoning, as I've already said.

I never said THAT reasoning is fallacious. Saying this is not the optimal way of doing things is not fallacious, I have my own concerns about the RNG. Saying that "oh hey, RNG gearing failed in the past, so it will fail now" actually falls in the category of a couple informal fallacies. 99% may not be optimal, but if it is 99% vs 100% it's certainly not something to be complaining about so intently, just mentioning as a possible area of improvement.

Guys, quit with the fallacious reasoning. Just because, in the past, one form of RNG gearing didn't work does not mean it will not work this time (in fact, it doesn't even supply evidence that it won't, that's improper use of inductive reasoning). It depends on how they tune it, ultimately. You guys have no idea how unforgiving the RNG will be, maybe realistically it'll only take a few hours of grind to get all of your gear. You don't know. Stop acting like it's definitely going to be terrible when you haven't even given the system a shot. Saying you're worried about it is fine, acting like it's actually going to be terrible is just acting without thinking plain and simple. No need to make assumptions, no need to jump to conclusions.

1. It remains to be seen if this is true. You're jumping the gun. They've said gear of the same rating can be attained via crafting, which means if that gear is sufficient people will not need subs. You'll lose set bonuses, that is it. Idk if that's enough to hard prevent anyone from doing any content, though it will hurt. Best to withhold judgment, no? 2. You don't know how long it will take, you have not tried the system. Please stop acting like you know in this case. 3. You don't know that, yet again, we do not know how long it will take to get any of the gear. 4. Yet again, you're making assumptions. They announced that we will get good gear via crafting. They announced you can do any content to get command points, thereby getting command endgame gear, therefore you can do non-warzone content to gear up for warzones first (and literally any content in the game, I might add).

Random gear is a system that's been in nearly every MMO since, like, forever. Nothing new, nothing bad, just different. Crafting will still produce gear of the proper item rating that will get you through any content you need. You can continue to get crates after hitting max command rank, so that the "RNG" isn't some limited time thing. You can try an infinite number of times doing any content you like. Since we don't know how rare the types of gear we want will be, complaining about RNG is too soon. It could be such that, effectively, it only takes on average a few hours of grind to gear yourself properly. It could be much, much longer. We do not know. RNG will only be a problem if they tune it improperly, and even then there are adequate substitutes.

That doesn't make the bellyaching good for the game or it's community. Just because they can do something, doesn't mean you should. Criticizing constructively and whining about systems you don't even understand yet are two *entirely* different things. I believe the OP is more addressing the people who are constantly whining.

I think the OP was more addressing how we should deal with our concerns, not that we shouldn't in any way voice them. There's a difference between voicing, what you feel, are the flaws with a system... and complaining. A lot of people on here, often making mistakes, are complaining about content that they haven't even tried. There's a difference between voicing concern, and complaining. This all just comes back to the important distinction a lot on these forums haven't made: There's a difference between complaining and constructively critiquing. One is healthy, one is not. You complain too much, the rational among us will point out you're hurting the game and it's community. Give thoughtful, reasonable critiques of the game, and the rational among us will commend you for doing your best to get the game back on track. What happens on here is less (in general) akin to constructive criticism and more akin to a child throwing a temper tantrum in public because he didn't get his candy the exact way he likes it.

PvP isn't perfect but is quite fun. I play 5+ matches daily at least, which for me is quite a lot. Story is not bad, it's quite good IMO. Better than any MMO outside of the Secret World and most single player games even. Presentation also quite strong in Kotfe, lots of good cinematic content and varied planets. Fun times. Don't personally care about raids/ops, different strokes for different folks. GSF may have been abandoned, but in spite of the current "new player" learning/gearing curve, it's quite fun imo. If it weren't star wars would I play it? For the story and PvP definitely, as long as it remains as solo friendly as it is now. Then again, I suppose you weren't REALLY asking a question. You were pretending to be asking a question so that you could give your own answer. Don't know if you're wanting other opinions or what, but there you have it.