Jedi Sentinel Feedback

[TrixxieTriss]

So I beg you, to watch

nice little video and I mean REALLY watch it, or at least sent it to whoever is calling shots

 

Jackie, I know this is off topic, but certainly relevant with regards to communication for this expansion. Which is why I’m replying to this post.

 

There is a small 1 min part that I think EVERYONE (from top to bottom) at Bioware should watch at around the 31-32 minute mark where they talk about proper communication and involvement of the community. This is something Bioware has failed to do over and over for 10 years. They could really take a page out of Square Enix’s book here and try something that works and not the same old path that makes people trust Bioware less and unsubscribe.

 

Edit : Another really important communication part is at the 48-50 minute mark

Edited July 30, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[ThatRonin]

We need some more transparency here from the devs. Because what they've said is just too little. I can get behind removing unnecessary abilities depending on what you're doing. Playing PVE, well you don't need leg slash or pacify so you can't even add those to your bars. Those abilities do nothing against operation bosses. By all means remove them and the utilities that go with them when I play PVE. But to force me to choose between the abilities that make Sentinels iconic and even valuable and defensives... that is never going to be ok.

 

First, Devs, you need to better clarify and make it known, that what we're seeing on PTS is not final in any way. Because as of right now, we all kind of hate you. I definitely think you should've waited on this. Started an alpha with some players that are experts in each class and can have good conversations on where to go with this pruning you seem to want to do. Then do some builds see what those EXPERTS think and then when they greenlight move on to an open PTS and go from there.

 

Instead we have the **** show you threw at us. Like, I enjoyed the original skill trees from 1.x. They were great and allowed us actual choices to make interesting builds. Obviously a meta would form, it happens in every game ever, and the best skill tree combos were made and that's what people flocked too. Just how it is. What you're currently offering is not that. These are choices between what makes a class iconic vs. survival. And let me tell you, transcendence is necessary. Removing the 30 stack in favor of 30 sec CD is necessary.

 

I am currently progging on ToS @ Revan. And transcendence on a 30 sec CD is literally saving my tank's life and making it just that little bit easier to survive HK without needing to rez anyone, because we're all alive. If I needed a 30 stack to use transcendence still, my tank gets killed by HK. Is it possible for him to live, yes. But its way easier to give him 80% movement speed and break HK's los on him so he doesn't die. That makes my sentinel useful. Valuable even. Because I don't have to give up a 30 stack, that could go toward zen so I can do zen things, to use transcendence to help keep my tank alive or help a player get somewhere for mechanics so we all stay alive. No instead you want me to choose between that incredible ability and my defensives that help keep my squishy butt alive.

 

I think a better direction is to give us clear PVE vs PVP loadouts. Because Sentinel's have abilities that are specific to PVP that are useless in PVE. You can prune those. Geez I haven't even talked about how important force camo is because of the cleanse it provides. I could go on for 10 paragraphs about that. Its nice cleansing myself. Don't remove that. Or make the cleanse an ability that isn't tied to force camo. It also doesn't break combat, just makes an opponent lose focus on you, which hit TAB when a Sentinel randomly jumps on you and you can kill them pretty quickly because if they force camo'd they probably already blew all their defensives. There is no need to force us to choose the iconic abilities of Sentinels and our defensives.

 

Look there are good ideas here. They've just been showcased in the worst way possible. There are abilities that should be removed and can help cut down on bloat on our bars. Sentinels, in all honesty don't have that many abilities compared to everyone else. They really don't need pruning. At all. In all honesty if you want to cut the bloat, combine abilities. Add things that make rotations run smoother. For Watchman, it'd be nice if I had one more ability that built a good amount of Focus. It would also help Watchman create actual rotations. Instead of being trapped on filler and make it seem a little more focused on how it wants to rotate through skills.

 

I like the idea of choosing between what buffs my advanced class is using. That's actually a fun idea. Just leave my abilities out of it. You want us to have freedom of choice, you have to let us use all our abilities. Buffs are a different thing and could be more useful against specific enemies depending on what they do. Oh, a boss with adds, i need buffs that let me aoe better. Single boss I need single target buffs. See how that works. Now you're getting different playstyles according to the situation while maintaining what we've always done. No relearning a class. No confusing new players. Simple. Go with simple.

 

Like I hope these loadouts were samples of how some devs play Sentinels. And that there is a choice were I have my cake and eat it too. As I always have. Because that was an awful experience to play like that. It was like going from eating ice cream cake to eating mud from a rusty puddle. I could do my rotations that was fine, but everything felt wrong. I do not want to play like that again. It was interesting but no. If I have to give up the current system for this new system, I'm just going to unsub. You guys can do better.

[Kaizersan]

I don't main sentinals on live, I only play enough to get through story, vet fp, and the easier tiers of MM fp. I default to fury/concentration since it's the simplest spec to play, keybind wise.

 

For me a sentinal is a dual wielder with force camo (aka: the poor man's stealth), predation/transcendence, pacify, and a fast paced combat style.

 

I ended up quitting the pts after seeing the given loadouts for concentration.

 

On live I have certain keybinds that are the same on all classes. Things like the hard stun, the interrupt, the escape, the short mobility (transcendence on Sentinal).

 

Both loadouts for concentration were missing transcendence, and the hard stun. Plus other abilities.

Although they kept cyclone slash in the loadouts, along with force sweep ... if you want to purge abilities, then why leave cyclone slash, a pretty much useless ability?

 

The abilities being removed, or made optional/a choice just seem to be the wrong ones to me. Especially compared to some of the largely useless abilities (slash? strike? both could be removed with a bit of tweaking for energy management to replace strike).

 

Why do we need two aoe abilities but can't have a hard stun and predation? I understand loadouts are preset, but the choices for the presets make it clear that the dev's are not playing the game the same way I do.

 

I don't know what the end result of the combat overhaul will be, but testing seems pointless to me at this stage when I can't even look at the available loadouts without being baffled by the dev's choices.

 

I like the gameplay on LIVE, barring a few things that could be tweaked, but with what's on the pts right now, I'm pretty sure I will not like what 7.0 ends up being. Whoever the combat overhaul is aimed at; it is not me.

 

Pretty sure they intend to remove all stuns and hard stuns from everyone but tanks as noted by the removal of sent stuns and there post about reworking cc breaking and interrupts.

[Llacertus]

One question. Have you considered actually learning to play?

 

You do realize that mara damage is so poor right now compared to the amount of pressure they take and their outdated dcds that they had to be turned into a stealth class just to stay relevant. Literally the only thing keeping mara's afloat in the current meta is the double stealth crutch. They need damage to compensate for their lack of dcds. Otherwise, why not just play an assassin or operative to have the same damage but stronger cc and stealth.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Llacertus

[OlBuzzard]

Pretty sure they intend to remove all stuns and hard stuns from everyone but tanks as noted by the removal of sent stuns and there post about reworking cc breaking and interrupts.

 

Short ... concise ... accurate. Even for PvE (some of us do more than "face-roll") ... that's just not going to cut it either !!

[Savej]

Short ... concise ... accurate. Even for PvE (some of us do more than "face-roll") ... that's just not going to cut it either !!

 

Guardians (non-tanks) still had force stasis and force push, same cds as on live. I don't think they're removing those. But who knows, maybe it just occurred to them.

[jbuncher]

I haven't tried this on the PTS, but this is a game breaker for me. Having to choose between offensive abilities and mobility (Transcendance / 2nd Leap Charge / Gap Closer / Force Camo) is insane. The Watchman Sentinel is a high mobility / high dps Dot spec. I've played it since 1.5, and it's *always* been like this.

 

Just.........why would you do this? I understand wanting to give choice, by why are you *culling* abilities we already have, some of which have been integral to the class builds since nearly launch? There *can't* be a way to do this well for all 24 specs, certainly not by the time of launch.

 

I'm fairly certain this will be the end of my subscription. *Please* do not wreck the classes like this!

 

--Mop

[arunav]

Pretty sure they intend to remove all stuns and hard stuns from everyone but tanks as noted by the removal of sent stuns and there post about reworking cc breaking and interrupts.

 

How will stealth classes function then?

 

Deception Assassin and Concealment Operative especially?

 

These function somewhat differently in group PVE content vs. solo PVE and PVP, but a constant in the latter two is using stuns on your enemy and then attacking from behind, whether with a saber or a vibroknife.

 

That's simply the basis of those 2 disciplines. How would you remove stuns and still maintain what those advanced classes are?

 

This is insane!!

Edited July 30, 2021 by arunav

[juanmiranda]

The best part about this all is that once 7.0 goes live with all these horrible changes and Bioware start losing even more subscribers that they will have literally 50+ pages of PTS feedback for all the classes asking them and or demanding they don't implement these changes. These devs really think that in a year where several new MMO's have launched and are launching while at the same time apparently FFXIV is soaring in popularity(I wouldn't know because I don't care about mmo PVE) that making such unwanted changes are a good idea? I am getting arenas in regs now at max level. That never used to happen and all people seem to be doing now is TC farms. Hoping that they will snag in some new players to come in and drop a few bucks on the cash shop before leaving is extremely short sighted and makes me wonder if these devs are aware of any of the new games coming out this year? Just being a Star Wars game isn't gona save this game indefinitely.

[juanmiranda]

I don't main sentinals on live, I only play enough to get through story, vet fp, and the easier tiers of MM fp. I default to fury/concentration since it's the simplest spec to play, keybind wise.

 

For me a sentinal is a dual wielder with force camo (aka: the poor man's stealth), predation/transcendence, pacify, and a fast paced combat style.

 

I ended up quitting the pts after seeing the given loadouts for concentration.

 

On live I have certain keybinds that are the same on all classes. Things like the hard stun, the interrupt, the escape, the short mobility (transcendence on Sentinal).

 

Both loadouts for concentration were missing transcendence, and the hard stun. Plus other abilities.

Although they kept cyclone slash in the loadouts, along with force sweep ... if you want to purge abilities, then why leave cyclone slash, a pretty much useless ability?

 

The abilities being removed, or made optional/a choice just seem to be the wrong ones to me. Especially compared to some of the largely useless abilities (slash? strike? both could be removed with a bit of tweaking for energy management to replace strike).

 

Why do we need two aoe abilities but can't have a hard stun and predation? I understand loadouts are preset, but the choices for the presets make it clear that the dev's are not playing the game the same way I do.

 

I don't know what the end result of the combat overhaul will be, but testing seems pointless to me at this stage when I can't even look at the available loadouts without being baffled by the dev's choices.

 

I like the gameplay on LIVE, barring a few things that could be tweaked, but with what's on the pts right now, I'm pretty sure I will not like what 7.0 ends up being. Whoever the combat overhaul is aimed at; it is not me.

 

If you really think the devs are playing this game then you are in for a rude awakening. I doubt these devs even play video games in the first place. Oh I guess maybe except for Keith who does(did) some PVE for a while and bragged about how he had 60 toons at lv.300 command rank back when we were asking for them to not add that tedious system. For a game with such a small community it really blows my mind how much they ignore us. There's like what maybe 2 or 300k active subs? From what I see in game that seems a generous number.

[SirrSlaughterr]

This is less a question regarding the Jedi Sentinel and more so the expansion as a whole. What is the dev team planning to do in future galactic seasons daily and weekly PO's that require group content be completed when the vast majority of the player base leaves due to all the horrible changes being put forward regarding combat styles? It's going to be pretty difficult to complete the 4 starfighter matches or the 3 unranked warzone weekly's if queue times are endless because no one plays the game anymore. Probably not even a minor concern on BioWare's part, just something I had been wondering as it is going to create issues. I have always played on the most densely populated servers by pure coincidence and remember several times for lengths as long as years where you were waiting in a queue for an activity for as long as hours even during "peak" times. This gladly has become less of an issue as the population has increased with the game being introduces through steam, but this issue WILL come back when you ruin the game. Again, probably a small concern in the grand scheme of things, I guess the better question is why change what everyone is begging you not to?

[KashtonNski]

First time in the forums, but as a Sentinel main I felt this worth contributing to. Thanks in advance for reading!

 

• What abilities make the Sentinel unique to you?
  
  Zen, Inspiration, Force Camouflage, Transcendence, Twin Saber Throw.
  
  
   
  
  

  
   
  

• Do these ability paths feel effective against enemies?
   
  
  Combat

  
  

  Path A:
  This one feels a little awkward. Zen Lance fits in nicely with the idea of being the Burst DPS spec, as it gives you a large window of hitting your hardest ability back to back. The awkward part is in the execution, since you run out of Focus so quickly. This makes sense so you don't spam Lance too much, but I'm led to believe this is what you should be doing; further, there isn't a clear alternative to better manage Focus during the rotation.

  
  

  Path B:
  This path feels pretty standard for Combat. Some of the new passives do benefit the spec in general through this path.
  
  
   
  
  

  
  

  
   
  
  Concentration

  
  

  Path A:
  This was pretty fun to try out, and it took very little time to learn a good rotation. The Decisive Slashes and Focused Meditation passives made managing Focus extremely easy. With double Force Leap charges and a lower cooldown on Zealous Leap, proc'ing Force Sweep and adding the Swelling Winds passive will make this a great build for AoE damage and give a high uptime of Zenith.

  
  

  Path B:
  This felt very similar to the live version of Concentration. Other than needing to change when to use Concentrated Slice to be immediately after Zen, I didn't change my rotation at all. Focused Burst as an AoE makes little sense, as Force Sweep already exists and is affected by most of the same passives as Focused Burst.
  
  
   
  
  

  
  

  
   
  
  Watchman

  
  

  Path A:
  The path feels generally the same as the live version of Watchman. Melting Center is very nice in helping increasing Centering to use Zen much more often, increasing Force Melt's damage as well as the rest of the applied DoTs.

  
  

  Path B:
  This path is... interesting. Force Lash replacing Cauterize fits a Hybrid DPS spec better than a Sustained DPS spec. The ability itself is interesting, and seems to be the idea is to spam while 3 stacks of Overload Saber and Force Melt are applied, which is your burst window. I don't hate the idea, but it would need a tactical item to supplement it and replace the loss of Spiteful Saber. This also eliminates one of the two DoTs available to be spread by Force Sweep. TL;DR, Path B = Hybrid DPS, not Sustained DPS.
  
  
   
  
  

  
  

  
   
  
• If you have feedback on the different disciplines and loadouts, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
  
  My general impressions of the changes made to the class are fairly positive with respect to the changes in the individual specializations. The lack of Transcendence, Blade Blitz, Guarded by the Force, and other Active abilities is rather disheartening. I enjoy the choice of being able to choose passive abilities, but there are very many utilities that come from each of the current active abilities in the game that would have major consequences in endgame content. I don't think these changes meet the goal of simplifying combat in the game. Less buttons doesn't mean more simple; it means each choice has to be weighed further. If players are already having a hard time having to learn and understand the many passive and active abilities they're working with, it will be even more imperative that they have to learn and understand when they have to decide what abilities they cut out of their build.
  
  
   
  
  
  If I have to choose between Inspiration and Force Clarity, I will have to set up 2 loadouts for this choice alone. In almost all content I'll be using Force Clarity (due to Descent of the Fearless being the only viable set for Sentinels in the current meta [which should very much change]), but there will be the few niche cases where Inspiration is more beneficial. This is a rather poor example, as both of these abilities are extremely necessary for content such as Master Mode Operations, but the choices in many of these abilities will create the need for constant change. Is the game truly more simple to play if you have to constantly choose what to cut out of your build? Maybe for those running around on Tython slaying Flesh Raiders, but not for those who will need 5 loadouts for each encounter in Master Dread Palace.
  
  

  
  

 

Thank you for reading, and for taking my thoughts and experiences into consideration!

[Costello]

What do you want to achieve by these changes?

 

My main is a Marauder so its a takes a little longer to workout what skills are missing as the names/icons aren't as familiar to me but it feels like at best we are a nerfed version of our current characters and worst we lose the skills that allowed the player to customise the character to their play style.

 

And for what, my quick slot bar is still full, the cool downs still seem to govern my combat style making it mostly about rotation rather than resource management.

 

Surely at the 10 year mark it should be about more choice, more play your way more freedom for players. I would understand if you wanted it to be more action and responsive combat but this doesn't do that in the slightest as its just a nerf and honestly the choice in nerfing makes things worse than at launch.

 

Duel Saber throw and mad dash are not the game changing skills you think they are. Yet we lost some of the general warrior skills back when base classes were removed from the game and lose even more now. Though the biggest loss is combat profession options to customise the build. This should have been made more of the focus not less.

[OlBuzzard]

Guardians (non-tanks) still had force stasis and force push, same cds as on live. I don't think they're removing those. But who knows, maybe it just occurred to them.

 

Possibly. The one thing that has to be frustrating (even to those who are trying to be objective) ... We're not really sure where this is going !!

 

I still like "stuns" though .. and use them frequently ( a couple from the smuggler and the trooper are my all time favorites ). I spend more time playing smuggler and trooper than I do Jedi ! ( Just my personal preferences ) .

 

Time will tell !

[Iymurra]

Sentinel and Guardian are not my preferred classes.

Having said that, I have given them a look over.

 

Fundamentally, the specs I tested feel rotationally complete. There are a couple of missing abilities (force clarity for example) but the base spec is functional. It might not be as fluid as it is on live but it works.

 

However

I have some concerns.

Since this is the Sentinel thread I'll focus on the sentinels.

 

 

Internal Talent Consistency, Watchman.

• Level 20: Transcendence. This is a raid utility ability. It does not compete with "Burning Barrage". What I mean by that is Transcendence does not directly increase your potential damage in a fight, while Burning Barrage does. 2 out of the 3 options at level 20 are mobility related, burning barrage is the odd one out. If this was changed to "Blade barrage roots the target for 3 seconds" this wouldn't pose an issue for me as you now have all 3 options revolving around mobility, not a mix of mobility and damage. Mobility CANNOT compete with damage on a discipline passive selection. Or that won't even be a choice in 99% of content.
  
• Level 35: Force Clarity. I'm a little bit different than most folks here. I don't mind if you get rid of Force Clarity. HOWEVER. It does NOT belong here. Options A and B alter the way you interact with Zen and Centering. Force Clarity has no relation to Zen or Centering. Discipline choices MUST BE INTERNALLY CONSISTENT.
  
• Level 60: Trailblazer. Again, internal consistency is needed. Trailblazer is the DPS talent here, its what people are going to take. Crusader is a good talent, but in PvE content you shouldn't be getting hit. Full stop. A more interesting series of choices would be between Adamant, Burning Zen, and Jedi Crusader here. Each alters the way you interact with effects and your focus. Crusader pushes you to play more recklessly (take damage), Adamant helps you with forced downtime, and burning zen lets you play more recklessly with your focus (note: I'd separate the no stacks/direct crit segment and leave that in the level 35 choice).
  
• Level 70. THIS IS NOT OKAY. Force Camo is your threat drop. You CANNOT remove this from sentinels. Now, you could remove the damage reduction and cleanse from the baseline ability and add those via a discipline talent, but each class MUST HAVE A THREAT DROP BASELINE. FULL STOP. I'm okay with having the choice between GBTF and Blitz here, but Sentinel MUST HAVE A BASELINE THREAT DROP.
  
• Level 80: Stoic. Again, clear outlier here. Passive DR and building centering when attacked (or taking periodic AoE damage) will meaningfully increase your DPS while Incisor will not. Incisor has the potential to reduce your downtime but realistically it belongs in the level 20 talent pool, not in level 80. INTERNAL CONSISTENCY.
  

 

Internal Talent Consistency: Combat.

• Level 20: Blade Barrage. We talked about this in Watchmen, DPS talents competing with snares & roots is not okay.
  
• Level 30: Defensive Flourish. Does not belong here as its competing with DPS increasing talents, this is a DtPS talent.
  
• Level 50: Again, Defensive roll shouldn't be competing with Adamant or Intercessor.
  
• Level 60: Trailblazer. Same as Watchman
  
• Level 70. CAMO IS A THREAT DROP, IT CANNOT BE AN OPTION.
  
• Stoic doesn't belong in this set. Stoic, Defensive Roll, and Defensive Flourish compete with each other. That is a talent set I support. They don't belong in different places, they compete with each other.
  

 

Internal Talent Consistency: Concentration.

• Level 20, kinetic barrage shouldn't be here
  
• Level 30, Zealous Defense. This is less egregious than the other two specs, but again. Defensive Talents should not compete with offensive ones.
  
• FORCE CAMO IS A THREAT DROP AND IS MANDATORY BASELINE FOR THE SENTINAL CLASS.
  
• Level 50, you know my feeling on this matter by now.
  
• Level 60, same thing.
  
• Level 70. INSPIRATION IS BASELINE FOR OTHER SPECS. IT MUST BE BASELINE FOR THIS SPEC AS WELL. ADDITIONALLY, RAID DPS UTILITY CANNOT BE LOCKED TO A SPECIFIC SPEC.
  
• Level 80. You know my feelings on this matter.
  

 

I did not have trouble with silvers and weaks when roaming around onderon with i286 average ilvl. The class changes you're showing us are functional. However, I implore you to look at the internal logic of the sets of talents you are allowing us to choose between. If offensive talents compete with mobility or defensive talents, its as good as those defensive or mobility talents don't exist. In order for us to make a meaningful choice, the choice has to be between different aspects of the same overall goal. You'll note I have no issue with the choices for the level 15 talents. I endorse EVERY SINGLE ONE of your level 15 talent sets. They're all great. You need to apply that same logic to the rest of your talent choices.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Iymurra

[LD_Little_Dragon]

Pretty sure they intend to remove all stuns and hard stuns from everyone but tanks as noted by the removal of sent stuns and there post about reworking cc breaking and interrupts.

 

oof, I really hope they don't go that way.

 

I can sort of understand disabling them in pvp, although that will mean pretty much every class has to be relearnt for pvp.

 

For pve though? A well placed stun/cc can be difference between an easy win or a wipe.

 

 

I don't think these changes meet the goal of simplifying combat in the game. Less buttons doesn't mean more simple; it means each choice has to be weighed further. If players are already having a hard time having to learn and understand the many passive and active abilities they're working with, it will be even more imperative that they have to learn and understand when they have to decide what abilities they cut out of their build.

I hadn't thought of this, but you're right, what is on the PTS right now will not make things clearer or simpler for new players than what is on LIVE.

 

I really wish Bioware was better at telling us just what they are trying to do with these changes.

Edited July 30, 2021 by LD_Little_Dragon

[Llacertus]

How will stealth classes function then?

 

Deception Assassin and Concealment Operative especially?

 

These function somewhat differently in group PVE content vs. solo PVE and PVP, but a constant in the latter two is using stuns on your enemy and then attacking from behind, whether with a saber or a vibroknife.

 

That's simply the basis of those 2 disciplines. How would you remove stuns and still maintain what those advanced classes are?

 

This is insane!!

 

My hope is that this cc removal was only done to sentinels to compensate for their increased damage. With these changes, sentinels will be doing more single target damage than any other spec. Combat can reach a consistent over 100% cit chance during zen even without using Fanged God form which will likely make it the highest single target dps spec in the game. Fury's aoe and single target burst potential will be insane from the autocrit after zen.

 

From the start sentinels were designed to be one of the highest dps frontline style classes. They have 2 lightsabers, but don't have the damage impact that so many other classes have. I really don't like how they destroyed juggernaut dcds, but for sentinels I think this was a step in the right direction. Leave the cc and utility to classes like snipers or operatives who were designed for that.

[Kaizersan]

How will stealth classes function then?

 

Deception Assassin and Concealment Operative especially?

 

These function somewhat differently in group PVE content vs. solo PVE and PVP, but a constant in the latter two is using stuns on your enemy and then attacking from behind, whether with a saber or a vibroknife.

 

That's simply the basis of those 2 disciplines. How would you remove stuns and still maintain what those advanced classes are?

 

This is insane!!

 

The stun isn't part of the identity of those classes they will probably remove positioning from damage on those so you won't need stuns.

[The_Hightower]

One more thnig:

 

Somewhere Bioware posted that the reduction in defs/abilities is inter alia intended to make it impossible to skip certain boss mechanics. However, the skills which are allegedly suitable to skip the mechanics are still there. Selecting them may require to sacrifice dps or something else with 7.0. Fxing the boss mechanics would have been preferable.

 

Hence, sorry, this is just another lame excuse for this arbitrary ability pruning.

 

But one positive effect of this whole 7.0-announcement should not go unmentioned:

 

I could cancel my subscription in time. My main raid group is currently anyway in summer break, however, it appears highly questionable that more than half of our group will continue playing with 7.0.

 

There are only two reasons I'm still playing the game:

- the raidgroup I'm temporary personnel of;

- the hope (which will very likely remain unfulfilled) that someone with reason steps in and at least alleviates the currently planned ability pruning;

Edited July 30, 2021 by The_Hightower

[arunav]

The stun isn't part of the identity of those classes they will probably remove positioning from damage on those so you won't need stuns.

 

Low Slash is literally a spec-defining feature for Infiltration Shadow/Deception Assassin. Sorry, but you don't know what you're referring to in your post. It's been my main for the entire time the game's been live, save for 1 month. I know the class inside and out.

 

Even if positional attacks are removed (which would make them OP in some circumstances), BW would need to almost completely redesign what a stealth class is in SWTOR. They don't seem to be doing that with other specs, as retaining class identity has been emphasized. We'll see what they cut on those 2 classes.

 

In any case, I'm sorry for posting non-Sentinel responses in this thread. I was shocked by someone saying they were removing stuns generally, which doesn't seem to be true.

 

I do think Sents/Maras losing Force Stasis/Force Choke means losing an iconic class ability, particularly for the Warrior mirror. Perhaps it's just not included on the PTS.

Edited July 30, 2021 by arunav

[omaan]

I played with Concentration and Combat in loadout B and A, respectively.

 

The DPS rotation for Concentration is exactly the same, with one exception - Centering builds much faster due to new passives. In PvE, I don't believe there is anything to be gained from this. In PvP, it'll probably be quite useful.

 

The DPS rotation for Combat feels very refreshing, compared to Onslaught. All that remains is to do away with Fanged God Form, and provide an enjoyable alternative as a tactical.

 

However, the main change is to defensive cool downs. Notably, without specialising into any loadout, we're missing:

- Blade Blitz

- Force Stasis

- Pacify

- Force Camouflage

- Awe

- Guarded by the Force

- Transcendance

 

I would hope that the fact that Force Statis and Awe are missing is merely an oversight, as CC plays a fundamental role in any PvP environment, and being left with nothing at all would leave Sentinels in a poor state. Under this assumption, that means there are 5 abilities missing. That's a lot, and their absence is felt. I would argue that both Force Camouflage and Transcendance are iconic abilities for the Sentinel, and making them optional isn't a good idea.

 

What I would instead suggest, is to make Transcendance only affect the Sentinel, and give it baseline. Then one of the "talents" can be to make it group-wide again. Force Camouflage simply needs to be baseline, for both PvE and PvP considerations. Particularly in PvP, if left with so few defensive tools, there needs to be a way to escape focus fire. Blade Blitz, Pacify and Guarded by the Force being optional seems completely reasonable, in that scenario.

 

Overall, I think this direction is alright, but you've gone slightly too far with taking away defensive abilities.

 

IF sentinel can't use trascendence without centering or deprived from this ability at all, if sentinel lost camouflage then what the difference between guardian and sentinel apart from enraged defenses ability? Zero i guess....

[OlBuzzard]

I played with Concentration and Combat in loadout B and A, respectively.

 

The DPS rotation for Concentration is exactly the same, with one exception - Centering builds much faster due to new passives. In PvE, I don't believe there is anything to be gained from this. In PvP, it'll probably be quite useful.

 

The DPS rotation for Combat feels very refreshing, compared to Onslaught. All that remains is to do away with Fanged God Form, and provide an enjoyable alternative as a tactical.

 

However, the main change is to defensive cool downs. Notably, without specialising into any loadout, we're missing:

- Blade Blitz

- Force Stasis

- Pacify

- Force Camouflage

- Awe

- Guarded by the Force

- Transcendance

 

I would hope that the fact that Force Statis and Awe are missing is merely an oversight, as CC plays a fundamental role in any PvP environment, and being left with nothing at all would leave Sentinels in a poor state. Under this assumption, that means there are 5 abilities missing. That's a lot, and their absence is felt. I would argue that both Force Camouflage and Transcendance are iconic abilities for the Sentinel, and making them optional isn't a good idea.

 

What I would instead suggest, is to make Transcendance only affect the Sentinel, and give it baseline. Then one of the "talents" can be to make it group-wide again. Force Camouflage simply needs to be baseline, for both PvE and PvP considerations. Particularly in PvP, if left with so few defensive tools, there needs to be a way to escape focus fire. Blade Blitz, Pacify and Guarded by the Force being optional seems completely reasonable, in that scenario.

 

Overall, I think this direction is alright, but you've gone slightly too far with taking away defensive abilities.

 

IMO .. we still need:

 

** Blade Blitz

** Transcendence

** Guarded by the Force

 

I use these extensively ! So IF I HAD to choose: I'd prefer that these were left in tact !

[Crystal_Mind]

What abilities make the Sentinel unique to you?

When I think of the sentinel, I think of a highly mobile blitz class. They do good damage, but just as importantly, they have great raid utility. The fact that Transcendence isn’t baseline is weird. It’s THE sentinel ability. Transcendence is to Sentinel as Saber Reflect is to Guardian. Full stop. Transcendence is an incredibly valuable thing for a Sentinel to bring to the group, because no other class can provide it. The difference that was made when my HM group added a marauder to our lineup was astounding.

 

And yes, I understand that Transcendence isn’t gone, but not having it in the base kit is jarring. I’m not going to complain about spending centering on it yet, because it wasn’t always free, but having to spec into it at all is… eh.

 

Force Camo being a choice is fine. There are times when it’s useful and times when it’s just a gimmick. It’s a unique kind of stealth, but I’ve never really leaned into Sentinel as a “stealth class.” Its use as threat drop/cleanse is much greater than the ability to skip mobs. But tanks can be encouraged to do better and I don’t always need a self-cleanse.

 

For effectiveness of each ability path and specific feedback, see below.

 

Concentration B:

Skipped to Odessen with a guildie and two-manned veteran/tactical Secrets of the Enclave, which I consider the Level 75 equivalent of Hammer Station. Concentration B felt much the same in Enclave as the live version did in the SM DF run I did 30 minutes before. The rotation works. I don’t feel too squish. Concentration B gets two leaps & blade blitz, so I have no complaints on mobility. Enclave mobs have stealth detection so it's not like I missed camo. No real complaints, but not blown away. It feels like Concentration, and that’s fine.

 

Concentration A:

Despite my initial concern over some of the passives, this path builds centering just fine. Tested by running Vet/Tactical Enclave solo with a companion. Defensives were fine… never felt like I was in danger of dying. Damage felt good. However, it’s not a combination of choices I would ever make. Missing Transcendence, Blade Blitz, AND my second Force Leap made it annoying to keep up momentum, and since the “A” path also lacked out-of-combat centering generation, the overall experience was less enjoyable than the B path.

 

General Bugginess:

--Switching specs at the droid does not initially update abilities, leading to some odd "mixed" loadouts. This can be fixed with a relog.

--The dev post description of loadouts is inaccurate. Both Concentration loadouts have Inspiration. Neither has Force Clarity.

[SeleniumTwo]

With our next phase of PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Jedi Sentinel.

 

Please answer the following questions:

 

• What abilities make the Sentinel unique to you?
  
• Do these ability paths feel effective against enemies?
  
• If you have feedback on the different disciplines and loadouts, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
  

Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking.

 

Thank you!

 

<LONG POST WARNING>

 

I'd like to not only give feedback but if I may, suggest some things that might be beneficial to not only getting the sentinel right, but also the other classes. I don't want to yell at Bioware about how bad this is or how I'll cancel my subscription if they don't listen to me, because I don't think that's a strategy that works for most people to be honest, and I also think that for the goals the devs have, I think this is a step in the right direction. That being said, let's get into it.

 

First off, the aims of this combat styles idea should be clearly stated. From what I gather, the goals are:

- To reduce ability bloat, and from that, reduce overall survivability in things like PvP, reducing the TTK

- To give players increased choices in terms of how they play their chosen spec

- To make the game more friendly to new players who may be overwhelmed by the amount of abilities they get, and not know what they do

- To retain class identities

 

There may be other aims that I've missed, but I think that sums it up fairly well. Next order of business is determining what the players want. I haven't done extensive research into what every single reply to every single PTS thread demands, but in general I can see that existing players:

- Want the current functionality of classes to remain

- Want to not be impaired doing content that previously doable, ie, not being nerfed into the ground

 

I know that Bioware has stated that "PvE encounters will be adjusted to account for the changes", but if I learnt anything from the nightmare that was scaling content in the 6.0 PTS, I'd imagine that would be kept to a minimum in an ideal world.

 

Now that we have an idea of what needs to be achieved by this system, it's a lot easier to see what needs to be done. I'm going to be primarily addressing the Sentinel here, since it is my main class and has been since I began the game about 4 years ago. Please note that I am not a Top 3 ranked PvP legend or 100% NiM raider, so I am sure I could be playing the class more optimally and the reasons I dismiss abilities may not take into account this very niche circumstance, rendering my entire argument invalid. However, I'd say I am a fairly good representation of the playerbase, dabbling a bit in PvP and cleared most HM ops as a Sentinel/Marauder.

 

The first thing is the current attitude towards builds. I understand that we will be given options for all the currently hardwired options in the A/B paths later on, but in my opinion, having the builds being either defense or attack focused makes a lot less sense to me than having a PvP/PvE option each time. I know that this could clash with the aim of giving players more choice regarding builds, but if implemented right it could definitely make a lot of players more happy with the choices. I mean, if you look at the current utility system, it's essentially "choose 3 PvE utilities" or "choose 3 PvP utilities", with a couple mandatory ones that should be baked into the spec as a passive.

 

Secondly, I'd like to address some of the 'choices'. Right now the PTS is pretty buggy, and I understand that's normal, it's a test server, so some of what I'm going to say might not be relevant. I think a clearer post about how the choices currently work would be beneficial in this regard, because I find it hard to understand at the moment regarding the choices marked neither A or B. Enough waffling though: Transcendence and Force Camouflage, like so many are saying, needs to be a definite, not a choice.

As so many have said before, Camouflage is the only threat drop us sents have, and really you need to have one as a DPS, regardless of whether taunts are being buffed or not, as I saw someone suggest. Tanks, like any other player, are going to make mistakes that DPS shouldn't have to pay for. Furthermore, part of the skill in tanking is managing aggro, and if taunts are buffed enough to make threat drops unnecessary, tanking is no longer going to be a challenge, only a contest of who can cycle through defensives most efficiently, which in my opinion would not be fun.

Transcendence, on the other hand, is needed for class identity. When you think Sentinel, you think two sabers and speed, which transcendence is an integral part of. Sentinel would sluggish, not to mention having virtually no group utility without transcendence, thus putting it as a choice would either make them not as worth to play as other classes if not chosen, or suffering from a potential DPS decrease if chosen due to the passive not chosen.

Once again, due to the bugginess of the PTS and the vagueness of the dev post, I don't know if these two are being relegated to choices, or if that is us the players misinterpreting it. Regardless, I would strongly urge Bioware to consider making them a choice.

One thing I will say on this though, and sorry for the rambling sort of form this post is taking, is that I can understand why there two abilities might be put as choices, mainly in terms of PvP balancing, stealthing out and the Defel Spliced Genes tactical. But in the spirit of making suggestions, if Camouflage is going to be a choice regardless of the reasons the community puts out, at least consider making some other ability, eg Zen, a threat drop. I cannot stress enough how important it is for DPS to have one.

 

The last ability I noticed missing from the PTS that I think should have at least some equivalent is Force Stasis. While not 100% needed in all content, there are instances where a stun is very important. Sentinels are already disadvantaged in this regard because they lack a knockback, so a stun is even more vital. However, I will admit that if severe pruning is what the devs are going for, it should be at least one of the 'PvP' options for a passive that buffs some other ability to give the same effect, although due to the long cooldown on most stuns, I'm not sure how that would work balance-wise. Something like this, though I think really illustrates what a choice of passives should be. In most cases, PvP players would choose the stun while PvE players would choose the increased damage or whatever it is. However, a PvPer might opt for more damage to burst through opponents quicker, while certain situations would require the PvEer to forgo the dps in favour of a stun, and encounters like those are the ones which should be balanced to reflect the changes.

 

Next, I'm going to go through some of the abilities pruned on the PTS, and how to not lose their functionality, and for this section, I'll be mainly focusing on the existing player concerns.

 

First up, Leg slash. Thank. You. So. Much. Leg slash is pretty much the only ability I can think of that can easily be disposed off while retaining functionality, because guardian tanks have already done that. Making this into one of the 'PvP' passive choices, where say, Obliterate/Merciless Slash/Lance gives trauma but costs extra focus is such a good idea it's ridiculous. Additionally, I feel like this is one of the more confusing abilities for a new player, I myself taking a good long time to fully understand what it does, so eliminating this kills two birds with one stone.

 

Awe is another missing ability, an AoE soft stun (ie breaks on damage). I feel like this could be handled in much the same way as Force Stasis, with the ability to spec into some other ability producing the same effect, although it suffers from the same cooldown issues. Ultimately, though I understand it is sometimes really important in PvP, it isn't as necessary as a hard-stun in my opinion, so making it into a passive is justified in my opinion.

 

Pacify/Obfuscate is the last flat-out mission ability, I believe, and with it I want to get to how to make balanced choices between abilities. I'm probably going to get a lot of flak for this, but I believe abilities should be made choices when there is another ability with roughly the same effect for the same time and similar cooldowns. That means that offensives should NEVER be paired with defensives, and one-sided choices like saber relfect/saber ward in the guardian paths shouldn't be there. In terms of the sentinel, I have a couple of potential choices as well as a few other suggestions. The first of these choices is Pacify and Guarded by the Force (GBTF). Both basically make you immortal for a short time, have long-ish cooldowns and in a lot of cases can be substituted for each other. I can already see the hate from this, but before people say what an unbalanced choice this is for X and Y reasons, note that I am anticipating some balancing in regards to timing to make this more equal. Additionally, it offers a choice players will have to think about. Obviously, in operations pacify is almost useless, but barring that, the choice comes down to whether players want to emphasis group utility by reducing the damage dealt by one enemy to everyone (or just themselves), or having another DCD to reduce damage taken from everything. In my opinion it is a really interesting choice for players to make, one that is balanced assuming the timings for the abilities are slightly adjusted and there is some solution for operations. This is what an ability choice should look like.

 

The second option for a choice is a no-brainer for me, but might have issues I've overlooked. Essentially, the choice between Cyclone Slash and Force Sweep. The reasoning behind this is that I've observed that no current spec uses both in either the main or AoE rotation, so one of them is always relegated to some other hotbar. I understand that having a spammable AoE with limited range, and a 360 AoE on cooldown can be advantageous, and may be nice for new players, but let's be real, those are mostly theoretical advantages and is not going to severely impact how players play the spec. I also like the idea of having different buffs both of these in the form of the passive choices, so either is viable but both are not needed.

 

My last radical suggestion is to do with Bladestorn/Saber Throw, and even I'll admit that if it went live, I'd be a little bit sad, not to mention it being a nightmare to make equivalent to other classes. Essentially, the suggestion is to have Bladestorm, Saber Throw and Clashing blast to be a new, 5th skill gained from the respective discipline (Concentration, Watchman, Combat). If we're talking in terms of the current PvE meta, which is where I have most of my expertise, nothing would really change, although for PvP the slow from saber throw and stun from Bladestorm might need to be added as optional passives for different abilities. That being said, both abilities are iconic to the Sentinel, so I'd fully understand this being rejected.

 

To finish off, I'm just going to be sharing my thoughts on everything I haven't already discussed. First off, saber ward. I spent a long time thinking about how to turn this into a balanced choice like Pacify/GBTF, but couldn't think of one. My solution, if it really needs to be nerfed by introducing a choice, is to have the bonuses it provides nerfed a bit, but to be honest, it seems like it is fine at the moment.

 

Similarly, Mad Dash is troublesome to balance. My only suggestion is to shorten it's cooldown drastically to make it like the operative roll, and have a choice between it and transcendence, but seeing as the roll is likely to be nerfed drastically, I don't see this being viable. Thus, I think the best option is keeping this as a high-level ability, say, 70 or 75, and trusting in the fact that new players will know the class well enough by the time they get there to be able to handle one unnecessary skill, which I think is entirely reasonable.

 

Regarding Force Clarity, that's an interesting one. Because it is a pure DPS increase, I see this as being a choice with a DPS increase passive if it were going to be a choice, a sort of skill thing: you can either get a flat increase, or have the option to control when you get a bigger increase for a limited time. This is of course disregarding the Descent of the Fearless set bonus, which is currently BiS and relies on force clarity. Seeing as there is going to be a massive overhaul of combat, though , I see it as reasonable that the current bonuses will either be redesigned or abandoned entirely in favour of new ones to account for changes like this one.

 

The last 'ability' is actually 2: valorous call and Inspiration (Raid Buff). One suggestion from a commenter I saw somewhere is actually surprisingly reasonable considering how absurd it is: remove raid buffs entirely. While I understand that this will reduce the skill involved in some fights, as well as make others really hard, I would imagine this is where fight balancing would occur to account for this, and it additionally removes all the problems around balancing raid buffs, some of which are next to useless (cough, cough, commando). Otherwise, another solution I have though of is giving players access to raid buffs only while in, say, warzones and operations, with some kind of temporary ability-like implementation. There are, of course, a lot of issues with this approach and I'd welcome any suggestions, but honestly, if it wasn't for the whole accounting for new players, for which the raid buff is undoubtedly quite confusing, I'd just leave then as they are. As to Valorous Call, I see this as an offensive cooldown, and one which can't really be presented as a choice with another offensive cooldown, so seems like it should just remain as is.

 

Oh, and CC and interrupts are a necessary part of the player experience, something I think Bioware got enough of during the guardian testing, but more importantly, I'd argue that they are by necessity separate from other abilities, due to the varied nature of when they are needed and thus combining them with another ability is going to cause problems in certain situations.

 

That's all the feedback and suggestions I have regarding the future of SWTOR combat, in particular the sentinel. I did not address passives because I'm fairly sure they are going to be changing a lot over the PTS cycle, and quite frankly much more analysis and I think I'd go insane.

 

So to sum up and answer the original questions:

What abilities make the Sentinel unique to you?

Transcendence and speed in general, a Sentinel should play fast, but not be without defensives.

 

Do these ability paths feel effective against enemies?

For the most part, yes. While some need tweaking in terms of quality of life (transcendence), they all feel, from my experiences so far, really fun and fresh. Thank you for giving Combat some love by the way.

 

 

Ultimately, I am super hyped for what is to come next and hope some of this feedback is incorporated. If anyone managed to get through this monster of a post, please let me know if I've missed something or if you have any suggestions of your own.

[JackieKo]

Instead they just unpinned the guardian feedback post in hopes it just disappears.

At this point I'm just waiting for the inevitable sorc outcry when their class gets the same treatment, at least that will be interesting to watch.

Maybe we will get a reenactment of the heal to full saga

 

Hi TevosisHot,

 

The Guardian specific posts were indeed unpinned, but the Guardian feedback thread was included in the main Sentinel post because I did not want players to lose track of the thread. This is in an effort to keep the pinned threads organized, consolidated, and not feel clunky or over cumbered. You can read the main Sentinel post here if you have not yet.