Scoundrels/Operatives ridculously OP.

[Reenolols]

First of all Hidden Strike KD gives a full resolve bar. I said that in my previous post too.

 

Second, even if you're snared there are ways to keep from showing your back to an OP.

 

Third, if you can get out of the KD, and can't manage to land some of your own cc on them to break up their burst, then it either means that your CDs weren't up, or you need to practice more. Even single archtype gets a wide variety of cc effects, most of which are instant cast.

 

For example, if they pop on my sniper - I trinket KD, flash bang the op and dart him (they love to break flash bang with their trinket, so I kite until they reach me, then debilitate, keep kiting (stopping only to Cull), if they reach me again, cover+cover pulse.

 

I mean we can theorycraft scenarios all day on paper - but all I'm saying is that everyone has tools to deal with everyone else. Granted some of the fights may be uphill, but others are the reverse. Instead of complaining about it, which might in some way pay off down the road via a nerf (don't hold your breath that your forum post will trigger a nerf from the devs) you could instead try to brainstorm ways to deal with what's giving you trouble (this also has the benefit of paying off immediately).

 

A good player does not break flashbang. Ever. I have yet to have a problem catching anyone, your theorycrafting isn't what really happens.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Reenolols

[Rucket]

A good player does not break flashbang. Ever.

 

Then I'm at 35m range with 2 dots on him before he's out of my CC, which should give me enough time to weakening blast and Cull before he even gets to me, since Ops don't get a gap closer.

 

Either that, or he vanishes after the flash bang and gets pulled out of stealth by my dots.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Rucket

[Gradx]

Learning how Ops work makes them easy to counter. Hidden Strike knockdown gives a full resolve bar - ie it's the only thing you should be trinketing...then use the plethora of cc abilities that BW gives each class to shut them down and break up their burst.

 

Part of the reason they're so bursty too is because acid blade gives them 50% armor ignore for 6 seconds off a backstab or hidden strike....soooo...trinket the hidden strike and cc/circle strafe/kite them to avoid/delay the backstab so their other abilities don't hit as hard, use a dot on them to prevent a vanish, etc.

 

And if you don't have your trinket or cc up, just remember that if a burst/assassin class catches you without your cooldowns, and they use their cooldowns - they should be winning the fight (assuming else equal). If not, what else are they good for?

 

So many of the "this is OP threads" would be avoided by a little bit of research.

 

My only gripe with the game is that I don't think sprint or leap/charge should work while carrying the huttball, especially when it's possible to pass the ball - but c'est la vie.

 

This post is logical, thought out, and very well-informed.

[Psytic]

Yea there pretty OP in my opinion. I can get pantsed by them with no chance of taking them out before they burst me down due to the weak dmg on my guard. I made a scoundral in beta and I can say they are quite easy to play too. I feel like most other classes have to pop every cool down and have way less room for error. Where as Scoundrel/ Op just pops out can stun backblast or stab and then proceed to chain retard amounts of dmg procs in the scrapper and concealment tree.

[Balmuck]

First of all Hidden Strike KD gives a full resolve bar. I said that in my previous post too.

 

Second, even if you're snared there are ways to keep from showing your back to an OP.

 

Third, if you can get out of the KD, and can't manage to land some of your own cc on them to break up their burst, then it either means that your CDs weren't up, or you need to practice more. Even single archtype gets a wide variety of cc effects, most of which are instant cast.

 

For example, if they pop on my sniper - I trinket KD, flash bang the op and dart him (they love to break flash bang with their trinket, so I kite until they reach me, then debilitate, keep kiting (stopping only to Cull), if they reach me again, cover+cover pulse.

 

I mean we can theorycraft scenarios all day on paper - but all I'm saying is that everyone has tools to deal with everyone else. Granted some of the fights may be uphill, but others are the reverse. Instead of complaining about it, which might in some way pay off down the road via a nerf (don't hold your breath that your forum post will trigger a nerf from the devs) you could instead try to brainstorm ways to deal with what's giving you trouble (this also has the benefit of paying off immediately).

 

I CAN'T wait till Reeno makes his level 50 PVP video. You kids will **** your panties.

 

I just can't wait.

[Reenolols]

I CAN'T wait till Reeno makes his level 50 PVP video. You kids will **** your panties.

 

I just can't wait.

 

I have 2 made but youtube keeps bugging out... try to get them up tonight.

[Reenolols]

Then I'm at 35m range with 2 dots on him before he's out of my CC, which should give me enough time to weakening blast and Cull before he even gets to me, since Ops don't get a gap closer.

 

Either that, or he vanishes after the flash bang and gets pulled out of stealth by my dots.

 

I'd hit evasion, remove everything you have on me, and use my 90s medpack. I'm at full hitting you, and you're stunned. And i have the option to vanish and open on you for 4k if I feel like it.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Reenolols

[Kyrandis]

On a final note before i leave this thread, I wonder if some of the people QQ'ing about Scoundrels and ops are the ones that QQ'd initially about Inq. Proceeded to roll one and found out that they get their *** handed to them by Scoundrels when we start combat. Edited December 30, 2011 by Kyrandis

[Rucket]

I CAN'T wait till Reeno makes his level 50 PVP video. You kids will **** your panties.

 

I just can't wait.

 

Since he responded to my post, I checked out his lvl 40 video. He's a very good player. I saw several times during the video though where he popped on someone squishy like a lvl 23 sniper, ran through his full burst rotation (and about half his specials crit), and the person was left at 30% still.

 

Not taking away anything from him, but that's his full burst rotation, on a person that didn't trinket and they're left at somewhat decent health. He was also outplaying a lot of the folks in that game, and had good support. I feel like that kind of proves my point - I don't think I saw a single person trinket his KD. Granted when his HK crits, it's definitely more pressure.

 

Either way, I look forward to seeing his next video, because they're entertaining and he's a quality player.

[naniyo]

The problem isn't Operative or damage, the problem is HEALING.

 

I'm playing a healing Operative, and I have a slightly lower level healing Merc. And this is true with quite a few classes.

 

If I get a Marauder on top of my Operative healer, I can live for a little while as I pop my two defensive CDs, or I can try to escape with the cloak, but I cannot just stand there and outheal his damaage. Same goes for a Merc that spams tracers and then does a heatseeker/unload/rail combo when I'm debuffed.

 

Healing in this game, especially in PvP, needs some serious changes to make it attractive. I mean, look at the medals. Healers get absolutely SHAFTED in the medals department. We get what, one for a 2.5k+ heal and one for 75k and what else? Nothing. Meanwhile, DPS classes get one for a kill, one for solo kill, one for 10 kills, one for 20 kills, one for 75k damage, etc. Most matches as DPS you get 5+ without even trying. As a tank, you get 7+ just for keeping guard up on people.

 

As a healer I have abandon my chosen role and go on a killing spree mid-match just to get the same commendations as a tracer-missile-spamming moron.

 

 

^^ this !

 

healer operatives and pvp without any premade is ridiculously weak, you get hammered by a marauder who leaps you in under 15 seconds that is how ridiculous they are at 50

 

operatives all go concealment because healing in pvp is soooo bad ,not to mention the operative is so frikken squishy that you better reroll a merc or a sorc who can bubble and continue healing under attack.

 

if a level 50 assassin dps spec or a marauder looses to an operative they need to quit playing and reroll a sorc/sage/bh/trooper

 

if they make operatives any weaker they should just scrap them all together.

Edited January 16, 2012 by naniyo

[Balmuck]

Since he responded to my post, I checked out his lvl 40 video. He's a very good player. I saw several times during the video though where he popped on someone squishy like a lvl 23 sniper, ran through his full burst rotation (and about half his specials crit), and the person was left at 30% still.

 

Not taking away anything from him, but that's his full burst rotation, on a person that didn't trinket and they're left at somewhat decent health. He was also outplaying a lot of the folks in that game, and had good support. I feel like that kind of proves my point - I don't think I saw a single person trinket his KD. Granted when his HK crits, it's definitely more pressure.

 

Either way, I look forward to seeing his next video, because they're entertaining and he's a quality player.

 

Dude... don't even start. At 40, he didn't have his armor bypass, his 30% crit modifier and much, including the PVP gear.

 

As I've said, I just can't wait till you people see what a good Smuggler/OP can do at 50 when full geared. I've played with Reeno for 3 years in WAR and we literally annihilated and demolished 3 servers. I find it rather humorous that many of you drop the L2P bomb over and over again, when everyone we play with is on the same footing when it comes to skills.

 

I'll just wait for him to finish uploading his vid. Then we can continue this convo.

[Alwaysthirsty]

I love how some of you want to nerf the most under player class in the game. I guess you'd like 3 options to come up when you create a new character?

[Mobiwang]

Since he responded to my post, I checked out his lvl 40 video. He's a very good player. I saw several times during the video though where he popped on someone squishy like a lvl 23 sniper, ran through his full burst rotation (and about half his specials crit), and the person was left at 30% still.

 

Not taking away anything from him, but that's his full burst rotation, on a person that didn't trinket and they're left at somewhat decent health. He was also outplaying a lot of the folks in that game, and had good support. I feel like that kind of proves my point - I don't think I saw a single person trinket his KD. Granted when his HK crits, it's definitely more pressure.

 

Either way, I look forward to seeing his next video, because they're entertaining and he's a quality player.

 

The problem is hugely exacerbated by stacking surge and expertise. THAT is why those numbers get so high. Ops are annoying (and scary) from 40-49. Once they get 50 and full PvP gear, they're outright terrifying.

[Rucket]

I'd hit evasion, remove everything you have on me, and use my 90s medpack. I'm at full hitting you, and you're stunned. And i have the option to vanish and open on you for 4k if I feel like it.

 

I used some of my experience as an example, but since we're going into it - in this scenario, you sit through a full 8 second flash bang (because you just opened from stealth so presumably you don't have a full resolve bar, and because "only noob operatives trinket flash bang").

 

I still have quite a bit of distance between us with which to react if you evasion my dots off...i can simple reapply dart (since it has no CD), leg shot (to create more space), keep running away (since I'm already at max range and mobile). I should be out of range of sever tendon (your ranged root/slow since it's only 10m) unless of course I mess up, or decide to go for the ball, or any number of other possible scenarios.

 

If you vanish and try to reopen on me with your rear positional melee range stun, by now at least 12 seconds have elapsed since you first opened on me....if I don't have any teammate support around, and if I can't get that dart back on before the vanish, and if I can't predict your movement so as to just run away while you chase me in stealth, and if I can't stall enough for my cc to come back, then maybe in that situation I'm screwed, and to be honest you've probably earned the kill at that point.

 

Also keep in mind that I'm biochem and I have access to the 90 sec health pot as well.

 

My main point wasn't that operative is a bad class, or that operatives can't get kills. I was saying that they are an assassin class that specializes in taking targets out quickly with burst - and they're good at their job, but that doesn't indicate that there aren't ways to deal with them.

[goulet]

you clearly have read nothing posted to date. you're an idiot.

 

stealth is the closer to get to any target you want. after that you need no closer.. because they die in 3seconds.

 

well thankfully your argument doesn't center on calling people idiots. Especially when said idiots are pointing out you move slower then the target you're supposedly "closing" on. Yeah i can sneak up on someone standing still, but if they're moving unless they run within my range stealth isn't gonna magically remedy that. Unless you're an assassin with their sprint.

 

there's a difference between reading and not agreeing and skipping over and assuming people are idiots.

[Sirokai]

Tracer missile - 2.7k hits

Lightning stirke - 2.3 - 2.5k hits

 

MARAUDERS!

 

 

Im sorry but everything at 50 is hitting hard... You got RNG critted. Once.

 

You sir, do not know how much lightning strike hits for.

[Rexking]

This is just a matter of l2p. Better players are better, because they are, not because they have a secret magic instant win button.

[Rucket]

Dude... don't even start. At 40, he didn't have his armor bypass, his 30% crit modifier and much, including the PVP gear.

 

As I've said, I just can't wait till you people see what a good Smuggler/OP can do at 50 when full geared. I've played with Reeno for 3 years in WAR and we literally annihilated and demolished 3 servers. I find it rather humorous that many of you drop the L2P bomb over and over again, when everyone we play with is on the same footing when it comes to skills.

 

I'll just wait for him to finish uploading his vid. Then we can continue this convo.

 

His past success in a different game with a different class has no bearing on Operative being OP (which was the topic of the thread), if anything it implies that part of the reason he's so effective is because he is a skilled player.

 

I never criticized his skill at all, I criticized the people that don't want to look for a solution before coming to the forums and whining.

[superfeds]

I understand the initial frustration of getting killed by operatives. It can be intimidating to have your health drop that quickly. However, its already been pointed out several times in this thread, that once that initial burst of dmg is over...the op is spent. I know when that happens, I am looking around for other players to finish my target off, or just trying to survive so I can restealth.

 

I think the people asking for a nerf really arent thinking through what they are asking for though. The op/scoundrel ambush specs are designed for high burst openings, and thats it. They take out single targets and get away. That is their job. The requirements for this huge dmg are rather steep compared to other classes. Positional/Stealth requirements. As well as resolve factoring into how much we can CC. If you want to take away, the best thing the operative can do...really the thing the operative can do...they have to be given something to balance it out. You cant just remove their burst damage without increasing their sustained damage.

 

In order for that to happen, an operative would have to not only be given different types of attacks that can be maintained over the course of a fight, but given more survivability to bring them into line with other melee classes.

 

Im sure there are a lot of changes that can be made that would improve PvP balance and competitiveness, but my general sense is that most people are just asking for a nerf, instead of trying to think of how to improve their play against the operative/scoundrel scenarios described.

 

I certainly feel I have advantages in situations, however I have never felt over powered on my Op.

[AdmiralOnasi]

I'd suggest that the people who think scoundrels and operatives are OP to give the class a try and see for yourself how it plays. Both classes are very gimped until you get Shoot First at 36, and the earliest you can get Flechette Round is level 40. It's a burst DPS class that relies on stealth, the element of surprise, and catching enemies by themselves. People who say that scoundrels are unbeatable probably need to get more experience fighting them in warzones.

 

If you try to fight more than one enemy by yourself, you die.

 

If you get AoE'd out of stealth, you die.

 

If you get more than one enemy hammering on you, you die.

 

If you don't execute your opener, you die.

 

If you blow your CC break before your resolve bar fills, you die from chain CC.

 

If you get rooted or slowed, you get kited to death.

 

Your only way to escape any of these situations is with Disappearing Act, an ability with a three minute cooldown. It's not like you can use it as a Get Out of Jail Free Card in every fight like some people think.

Edited December 30, 2011 by AdmiralOnasi

[Nyghoma]

I CAN'T wait till Reeno makes his level 50 PVP video. You kids will **** your panties.

 

I just can't wait.

 

 

I'll beat him.

[Balmuck]

I'll beat him.

 

You do know this is Wrath, right?

 

 

Oh, I'll beat anyone and their mom.. You now this!

Edited December 30, 2011 by Balmuck

[biowareftw]

I'll beat him.

 

So will I. Can't wait for this kid to make a scoundrel and post vids of 250k dmg...

 

I will post a video of a 30 Sorc doing 400k LAWL. I will even slam my keys like a foot above the keyboard shouting DERP DERP DERP.

Edited December 30, 2011 by biowareftw

[Ultratron]

Anyway. Fact remains, they are immensely OP and their damage needs to be turned down ALOT.

 

They are atm the gods of pvp.

 

 

So people are presenting arguments to your statement... you reply to this by brushing off their arguments and saying that you're opinion is "fact"... interesting.

 

Operatives are very easy to counter during the stun combo if you have trinket, without their stuns they are extremely vulnerable. I'm sure this particular Operative had a good chuckle about how he just obliterated 2 people who didn't even attempt to fight back.

[Nyghoma]

You do know this is Wrath, right?

 

 

Oh, I'll beat anyone and their mom.. You now this!

 

Oh snap Wrath! How ya been?