EA Gambling Crates, 1 game went too far, others to follow

[narcsissism]

I have read what was posted originally but I just cant agree with it a lot are conclusions you are making that is called a reach saying that people gamble on crates so they can make credits does not make much sense you can watch most of the streamers even say you make better credits from selling the crates for credits rather then opening them which if that is true I guess there may be a money value associated to them but to me that is called choice (weather to buy or not) It is not like what happened with the other game as they actually gave you an advantage over other players the cartel market does not do that it feels like people are trying to say that it is pay to win as I have often herd in general but at worst it is pay to look how you want stats ability's nothing to do with game mechanic's is changed by these items.

[ivanhedgehog]

What some of you are failing to understand is that you cannot actually purchase any RNG items for actual real life currency in SWTOR. It can be, and is, different for some games... where you direct purchase an item from a microtransaction store for actual real life currency. SWTOR is NOT one of these. Some other games.... "may be" and "may" have to make some tweaks to their transaction business models to avoid any legal violations of any new legal ordinances.

 

A) All items sourced through the CM can only be purchased using a token currency (CCs) which can and are used for a variety of things that players want to do in game. Like appearance changes, or additional character slots, etc. etc. So it is NOT a given that CCs are only used for "alleged" "gambling".

 

B) Further, a lot of the actual CCs in float in game (~ 30% +/-) are not actually purchased, but rather granted as incentives for subscribers, incentives for referrals, and even gifted awards from the studio (either to all players or to players that meet certain conditions.

 

Point being....... the producers of SWTOR have legally decoupled real life currency from in game token currency on multiple levels. [some may in turn claim that they are simply gaming current law..... but that is something game players are actually not qualified to assess, much less act upon]. Plus, CCs cannot be returned or traded for real life currency either, nor can they be gambled in game for a chance to get more CCs. CCs in SWTOR have no actual cash redemption value whatsoever. For this current passion about cheering governments for investigating and setting limits on what and how micro-tranactions are legally applicable... you are going to come out the other side of events very disappointed.

 

As for RNG...... sorry ... but there is nothing inherently illegal about RNG in games.... where the only winnable outcome is a virtual item which you never actually as a player own (it is viritual IP retained by the studio that they let you use for as long as you play the game and qualify to do so). There may or may not be some changes that studios will be forced to make to comply with any changes in laws in the future..... but that does not mean micro-transactions are going to go bye bye.... much less any random nature to gaining items in game.

 

So much conflation and wishful thinking going on about this recently in the forum. It's a lot of wasted energy and emotions.... much like just about every forum topic. Have fun with that.. and don't cry later when the resulting outcome is not what you actually wanted or railed against.

 

If it was that simple, vegas would just sell tokens at the door. Armchair lawyer fail. Gambling is what the lawmakers say it is in the laws they write. If they choose to curb this behavior, be very certain they can.

[IoNonSoEVero]

No comparison. With trading card packs, you can sell both the collections they create as well as individual cards to other collectors directly or purpose-built card shops to recover original purchase prices. If you see a card that you feel could go up in value, you can trade multiple lesser valued (but sought after) cards for them, or simply go to a card shop and buy more of them if they have any left. This is particularly true for sports rookie cards. A little homework & foresight removes a lot of the gyp factor, and it's a hobby that doesn't take long to pay for itself if you "play your cards right".

 

There is nothing underhanded about it.

 

Beckett has a humungous web site and myriad magazines devoted to nothing but publishing current market values for individual trading cards and trading card sets. Trading cards (real ones, not the ones that get redeemed in games for digital items) are designed for not only nostalgia purposes but family heirloom-level returns on investment. It's costing me an additional $6.00 a month just to have mine insured as "Collectibles". They are treated like precious jewelry if their cumulative values (≥$1,500) are high enough.

 

That's not the case with video game gambling crates. Once you buy them your money is gone. Forever. And once the game closes down whatever you were lucky enough to get in your RNG crates is also gone. Forever.

 

Not only that, but when you buy a pack of trading cards or stickers - be it baseball cards, Pokemon, Magic: the Gathering, Garbage Pail Kids, etc. - you know what you're getting. You don't know exactly which cards will be in your random pack; you could get the rarest one out there or nothing but common cards, but you're getting five cards or stickers or what ever.

 

With the CM packs, you can buy a pack that depicts all sorts of cool mounts, armor and weapons in the illustration - and end up with a blue companion gift you could buy at the Fleet, a handful of Jawa scrap, supplemental armor for a set you don't own, and yet another plain blue or yellow crystal. It's not exactly the same as what was advertised, and it's junk that can't even really be resold within the game economy.

[AshenK]

If you ask me trading cards are gambling as well.

 

I'm a Red Sox's fan I have been from when I was a little kid until now. And I learned this when I started buying packs of Topps Baseball cards. Maybe now and then I'd get one Red Sox player, most of the time I got cards for teams I didn't care about. A card store I went to did sell full teams however at an insane price. I remember asking my Dad then why Topps just didn't sell the full team themselves. They would make so much money off the fans if they did and my Dad said I don't know.

 

Oh and add in the lie that those cards would be 'worth something' over time. Barely any of them are and too many people make fake cards now and put them out in the market.

 

This is all gambling marketed at children. And I don't know what's more foul that it is, or that it's been going on for so long.

[LordArtemis]

Yes, the definition of gambling is set by the lawmakers. That is irrefutable.

 

It is also important to point out, however, that at this time it does NOT fall under the current rules or definitions for gambling in any of the 50 states of the union...at least not how they are currently interpreted..

 

All of the gambling laws have one important caveat....chance of complete loss. There has to be at least some kind of chance of no reward for it to be considered gambling in all 50 states.

 

The problem is value...are the items offered valuable enough, compared to the currency spent, to fail to fall under the general definition of what is considered gambling?

 

Some folks are looking at that now. Time will tell, but I suspect it will not be easy to define.

 

Now they could go the angle of "temptation to spend to abuse" in young folks, but that would likely require new legislation.

[Eshvara]

Yes, the definition of gambling is set by the lawmakers. That is irrefutable.

 

It is also important to point out, however, that at this time it does NOT fall under the current rules or definitions for gambling in any of the 50 states of the union...at least not how they are currently interpreted..

 

All of the gambling laws have one important caveat....chance of complete loss. There has to be at least some kind of chance of no reward for it to be considered gambling in all 50 states.

 

The problem is value...are the items offered valuable enough, compared to the currency spent, to fail to fall under the general definition of what is considered gambling?

 

Some folks are looking at that now. Time will tell, but I suspect it will not be easy to define.

 

Now they could go the angle of "temptation to spend to abuse" in young folks, but that would likely require new legislation.

 

But there must be more to it than "as long as you have no complete loss, it's not gambling" in terms of the world.

If they hand out 1cent to people who lose as a consolation prize, it would still be seen as gambling.

 

Which is basically cartel packs, even if you don't win anything good, you'll always get crap.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Eshvara

[Stormwatch]

So far I haven't seen a single post about it being a person's own responsibility of whether they purchase the crates or not at their own expense. Is this the new mindset of the players that it is someone else's fault that they were forced to purchase the crates? As a player it is entirely up to me whether I purchase the game and pay the monthly subscription and whether I purchase the crates, EA didn't force me to and neither did anyone else.

[LordArtemis]

But there must be more to it than "as long as you have no complete loss, it's not gambling" in terms of the world.

If they hand out 1cent to people who lose as a consolation prize, it would still be seen as gambling.

 

Which is basically cartel packs, even if you don't win anything good, you'll always get crap.

 

Loss, as in net loss, not total loss.

 

Here is a rundown of the laws state to state. Note that New Jersey legalized online gambling.

 

Here is an excerpt from the Colorado gambling law, one of the toughest in the nation.

(2) "Gambling" means risking any money, credit, deposit, or other thing of value for gain contingent in whole or in part upon lot, chance, the operation of a gambling device, or the happening or outcome of an event, including a sporting event, over which the person taking a risk has no control, but does not include:

(a) Bona fide contests of skill, speed, strength, or endurance in which awards are made only to entrants or the owners of entries;

(b) Bona fide business transactions which are valid under the law of contracts;

© Other acts or transactions now or hereafter expressly authorized by law;

(d) Any game, wager, or transaction which is incidental to a bona fide social relationship, is participated in by natural persons only, and in which no person is participating, directly or indirectly, in professional gambling; or

(e) Repealed.

(f) Any use of or transaction involving a crane game, as defined in section 12-47.1-103 (5.5), C.R.S.

 

(3) "Gambling device" means any device, machine, paraphernalia, or equipment that is used or usable in the playing phases of any professional gambling activity, whether that activity consists of gambling between persons or gambling by a person involving the playing of a machine; except that the term does not include a crane game, as defined in section 12-47.1-103 (5.5), C.R.S.

 

Risk is the key word here....there has to be a risk of net loss for potential gain. If it can be proved (or interpreted as such) that a person can suffer a loss in value from RMT to in game currency as a result of purchasing the loot crates, and those crates exist as a mechanism SPECIFICALLY to facilitate that risk of loss, than perhaps it can be classified as gambling.

 

All three points have to be met. The risk, the reward mechanism, and the mechanism that is designed to facilitate that risk/reward mechanic. Without all three points it is unlikely it would be judged as gambling under any metric.

 

Making something appealing to purchase, or artificially inflating demand (by controlling supply, something I believe these packs actually do) does not constitute a gambling mechanism IMO. There are many items that would fall into the definition of gambling if that was the case.

Edited November 27, 2017 by LordArtemis

[Eshvara]

http://comicbook.com/gaming/2017/11/26/petition-disney-ea-battlefront/

https://www.change.org/p/lucasfilm-revoke-ea-s-star-wars-license

 

Lol, people really are fed up with EA.

But I know where they're coming from, EA is about the worst corporation to have behind your back. They buy everything, ruin your game and dismantle your studio.

Ruined the new star wars game, ruined BF2, ruined swtor, ruined the epic ME series, now they're on their way to ruin dragon age, with their crappy spin off. That'll just be a multiplayer stinkhole. /Mad

Edited November 27, 2017 by Eshvara

[ufarax]

If you ask me trading cards are gambling as well.

 

I'm a Red Sox's fan I have been from when I was a little kid until now. And I learned this when I started buying packs of Topps Baseball cards. Maybe now and then I'd get one Red Sox player, most of the time I got cards for teams I didn't care about. A card store I went to did sell full teams however at an insane price. I remember asking my Dad then why Topps just didn't sell the full team themselves. They would make so much money off the fans if they did and my Dad said I don't know.

 

Oh and add in the lie that those cards would be 'worth something' over time. Barely any of them are and too many people make fake cards now and put them out in the market.

 

This is all gambling marketed at children. And I don't know what's more foul that it is, or that it's been going on for so long.

 

If I buy a pack of trading cards, I can put into storage, give it away as gifts. At the end of the day...I own whatever is in the pack. You don't buy cartel packs, you rent them. I would much rather buy something that I can own. When the servers finally shut down? What will happen to my fancy speeder, or my shiny new armor set? They will disappear, or maybe they will become one with the farce. You are right that this is not gambling, its far worst than that....brought to by the good people of The Walt Disney Corporation .

Edited November 27, 2017 by ufarax

[Jamtas]

Actually I think EA took the RNG progression idea they pushed out on us in 5.0 and the p2w element of Galaxy of Heroes and combined then to make the EABF2 progression system.

 

With how horribly the RNG progression was received here I'm amazed they tried it again. And put a p2w element on top of it as well.

 

Only themselves to blame and not only shot themselves in the foot on Battlefront, but may be taking away a significant portion of their corporate revenue if lawmakers do enforce regulations and add lootboxes into the gambling definition.

 

But their Star wars track record for pc/console is really disappointing. There is this game that stumbled out of the gate and was never able to realize it's potential as a result, and then the two battlefront games which each had their own controversies from EA greed (releasing unfinished game and trying to charge another $50 right off the bat for DLC that should ahve been included and then the new p2w/rng lootbox fiasco that is going on now)

 

I can't really point to a win outside of the mobile GoH game.

 

Pretty depressing they've put out so little for this franchise.

[Eli_Porter]

Crates are only dangerous if the act of spending money can (RNG willing) give you an edge over others.

 

This was true for BF2 at launch, true for games like Hearthstone, but not true for cartel packs. If you think that cool looking armor is gonna make you superior to others and you end up spending $200 to get it, that's your fault.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[Vhaegrant]

No comparison. With trading card packs, you can sell both the collections they create as well as individual cards to other collectors directly or purpose-built card shops to recover original purchase prices. If you see a card that you feel could go up in value, you can trade multiple lesser valued (but sought after) cards for them, or simply go to a card shop and buy more of them if they have any left. This is particularly true for sports rookie cards. A little homework & foresight removes a lot of the gyp factor, and it's a hobby that doesn't take long to pay for itself if you "play your cards right".

 

There is nothing underhanded about it.

 

Beckett has a humungous web site and myriad magazines devoted to nothing but publishing current market values for individual trading cards and trading card sets. Trading cards (real ones, not the ones that get redeemed in games for digital items) are designed for not only nostalgia purposes but family heirloom-level returns on investment. It's costing me an additional $6.00 a month just to have mine insured as "Collectibles". They are treated like precious jewelry if their cumulative values (≥$1,500) are high enough.

 

That's not the case with video game gambling crates. Once you buy them your money is gone. Forever. And once the game closes down whatever you were lucky enough to get in your RNG crates is also gone. Forever.

 

The marketing psychology is the same, irrespective of the virtual or physical nature of the item being purchased.

[Manathayria]

1958 here and, ya ... guess I should wait until the loot box bubble economy bursts which will likely change things again.Now THAT was awesome. I honestly had not taken the time to step back, relax my eyes and just look. While every generation seems to have its wars and disasters to overcome, the equal rights movements you mentioned that continue to be championed are stuff I wholeheartedly support as a matter of course. My friends are all diverse in race, creed and orientation. I'm basically so "color blind" that maybe I just don't recognize it other than when it becomes flagrant or newsworthy like Charlottesville (which really pissed me off.) Perhaps I should spend less time among friends, in children's hospitals or in town halls and more time at social functions or on the street to see what's really happening.

It's been there, right below the surface and it's been coming to a boil for years. I do a lot of people watching because of my job with the military, even when I'm not on duty I watch people and how they act. We as a society walk around more and more buried in our phones and instagram and facebook and everything else - but the issues are around us outside our tech, and inside our tech to a degree we're jaded and distanced from it - and that is causing things to progress a bit slower than they probably should. Yet there's a reason if you search some of the issues on youtube or anywhere else you will find it. People are recording it and watching it and just a bit more disconnected with their tech so it's taking more time for the issues to really explode. However, it's starting to happen even if slowly.

 

 

Proof? Oh, of the nearly 3 million players originally? Ya - I checked my sources and it was actually closer to just over 2 million units sold and 1.5 million subscribers. https://www.engadget.com/2012/02/01/ea-reveals-swtor-subscription-and-sales-numbers-beats-financial/

What I meant was that it was one generation that went for it. Gaming has become something that crosses the generational gap now. It use to be that female gamers were 'rare' but the companies are starting to sit up and take notice that we're not anymore - we're on the net and buying games right along with the guys and we are becoming a target audience for them now.

 

Once again it would seem that my perspective is antiquated. My definition of a gamer comes from the tabletop days when Avalon Hill strategy games, Chainmail and later Dungeons & Dragons and Traveler were what we had that took days if not weeks to play through a single scenario. True labors of love where content was eminently repeatable and grind meant having to concentrate for extended durations.

 

For us (the Catholic school society I grew up around), arcade games were more about partying than gaming. When they moved from the arcades to consoles it was the same thing ... we just didn't have to leave the house. Fast forward through the introduction of desktop gaming and MUDs to true multiplayer games and later MMOs that blew the scope and scale of the original table top strategy games away while adding D&Desque or Traveleresque story to play through. It's what I and the group of MMO gamers I've played with since the 90s bonded ourselves to.

 

The thrill of the hunt was an actual immersive hunt. Barbie dolls, Wizards & Warlocks and trading card packs were never seen as being even remotely similar. Now it appears that those are being repackaged as the new MMO direction at the expense of MMOs that blow the scope and scale of the original table top strategy games away while adding D&Desque or Traveleresque story to play through.

I still do D&D tabletop off and on - as well as Warhammer 40k and a few others. I've slipped farther away from D&D and more toward the newer warhammer tabletop gaming because even at 'max' level working and crafting a story not only takes time - it entails risk to the player's character - something that with a lot of the older systems faded as you leveled and progressed through the game. I remember playing through MUDs and the like as well - I miss them to a degree but I'm happy I've found things like Warhammer and the various D&D or pathfinder societies that save a character for you to go out and play anywhere by the core rules in an official campaign - though I suspect a lot of the gaming groups I've been a part of are more disjointed as I've moved around more and lost contact with a lot of those I use to play with.

 

It does feel like gamers and the gaming industry are in a sense hunting getting back to some of those roots with sandbox style MMOs rather than the theme park style we're use to with ones like WoW and Everquest and even SWTOR.

 

I honestly did not realize how much the newer generations disdain microtransactions and P2W. Though after the recent Battlefront 2 fiasco I really should have put 2 and 2 together. I truly believed that those systems were becoming the norm because that's what newer generation players wanted ... when it is the video game industrial complex (couldn't think of what else to call it) feeding us that line to cover their tracks.

 

I ask myself why the hell was an entire gaming industry able to take it this far after watching big banking and lending blow up only a decade ago from hiding their transgressions under world-wide speculative collusion ploys. Until your comments reminded me of a video posted earlier about how the "Ultimate Team" loot box machine is generating almost $1 billion in revenue for EA alone.

 

The decision makers for these gaming conglomerates are mostly middle age-ish. I doubt there will be a baby boomer in the bunch as most who weren't RIF'd for being "overqualified" are either retired or doing their own thing now (like me). Case in point: that video I mentioned earlier featuring EA's "Ultimate Team" loot boxes ... Andrew Wilson (EA's CEO who created this mess) is only in his early 40s.

Now, here's a snapshot into something for everyone on the industry, who the execs are for some companies beyond EA, beyond the US and perhaps what EA and other companies may be watching (perhaps more than we realized).

 

I know Perfect World has been around since about 2004, it's style of gaming is meant to emulate that of the style of the east/asia and the games actually have a lot of the loot boxes. Something that becomes more and more apparent both in STO and NWO (which it bought out from Cryptic Studios) and other games it has. I suspect if I played or dug into some of their other games I'd find the same gambling boxes - some of which have the 'best' mounts you can get in the game, or the high end pets (much like our companions) which can only be gotten through their loot crates. Gambling crates which are 'limited edition' with the need to use a key which comes from their cash shop to open each one. The sad thing is - you can't even avoid looting the gambling crates in NWO and STO - it's the keys in STO and NWO that you need to purchase. The other games they have are a little less in your face about them that I remember.

 

here's some information on the actual company and it's execs; Chinese game developer Perfect World Co. Ltd. Michael Yufeng Chi, the company’s founder and chairman of the board of directors took the company private in 2015, their current CEO: Robert Hong Xiao (Aug 2012–).. lets look at Robert Hong Xiao's education since I can't find his actual date of birth on the sites easily and I wasn't finding anything readily available on Yufeng Chi (though I might be able to with a little more digging beyond an at a glance google search).

 

CEO: Robert Hong Xiao Education;

University of Southern California PhD, Engineering, 1995

University of Southern California Master's Degree, Engineering, 1991

Tsinghua UniversityBachelor's Degree, Physics, 1989

 

If he graduated with a degree in physics in 1989, lets say he earned that first degree at the age of 20. That would set him as born around say..... roughly 1969?

 

Most likely my guess at his age is off and setting him as younger than he actually is. I probably didnt dig enough to find his date of birth but there's some dates for you with one of the leaders to a company that's again, heavy with the cash shop and RNG loot crates. Yes, he's from china - but his company spans both countries. So it is a small snapshot of information for you with a company leader that's heavy in the micro-transactions, random loot crates, and targeting the 'whales'.

 

It's my understanding a large number of 'eastern' games tend to have heavy cash shops - though when they come to us in the 'west' they actually remove some of the heavier cash shop items and make it more open for us using the same F2P models. They generally grant more to us without 'making' us spend quite as much as is built into the 'eastern' version - though the cash shops and grinds remain. I distinctly remember one of those 'free to play' games I tried (and fled quickly) where all the cosmetics were temporary and cash shop - as were the mounts which you almost had to have to go anywhere.

 

However, for all that they tone it down - don't forget that our own corporations in the US are watching and paying attention to how much those companies are making;

Such as perfect world (keep in mind, if you go to their site - it's all 'free to play';

Revenue: 3.05 billion CNY (2013)

3,000,000,000

 

In (current) US dollars;

454,421,521 Million USD.

 

Now, these are mostly F2P games - perfect world and eventually NWO, STO and others You can login and get access to pretty much everything for free. But the nice things with the best stats? Those will cost you - and you'll need to get some of it from rng crates which cost money - or from other players who paid out for them.

 

The links below are older and the explosion with BF2 really drowned out a lot of these on microtransactions. They flashed into the news - but I don't think they stuck in the consumer's mind as firmly as BF2 seems to be.

 

There's a graph with a sort of overview (though I dont know if they're focusing on one particular game with it) which addresses Japanese gacha - though I believe it applies for other regions and countries as well;

http://thebridge.jp/en/2016/04/gotcha-time-for-gacha

 

According to that first article, 48% of revenues come from about 0.19% of all players for the mobile games with cash shops and chance loot crates.

 

Some types of japanese 'gacha' monitization;

https://www.serkantoto.com/2016/03/14/gacha-monetization-japan/

 

The last one is one that I've actually seen people do similar to on these forums. Saying they went through seven or eight hundred dollars and multiple crates going after the newer platinum level loot items out of the CM for cosmetics;

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/03/14/business/smartphone-gamers-blow-small-fortune-on-their-obsession/#.Whu1IEqnFEY

 

These are all problems. It's been a creep more and more toward 'pay to win' and loot boxes for cosmetics and other things over time. Keep in mind, BF2 was not the worst offender - looking into the grand scheme of things and how bad other games have been with the crates and pay to win and everything else. It's the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak.

 

The real bottom line here is this; EA finally hit a community that looked at the grind, looked at the game, knew their other options and how far the other cash shops have gone - and the community hit the breaks.

 

The community across age ranges asked for refunds of over 650k~ copies of the game because they refused to deal with the loot crates, and refused to deal with the grind for them with the cash shop included. Had this been battlefield or anything else, the community may have taken it, rolled over and asked for more. However; I don't think that's the type of community that really follows Star Wars. That, or it's a lot of the same community - it's just finally had enough and made the decision not to take anymore. Whatever it was, the community decided to stick with what it already invested in and spoke with it's wallet regarding the newer game and it's cash shop and RNG gambling boxes.

 

For the cartel packs and the boxes in BF2 - I do think the idea that they do prey on gambling addictions - and the 'thrill of the hunt' for those buying them. While it may not be gambling direct - it certainly has elements for it that should be looked at and regulated - with chances for each piece of loot on the loot table posted publicly. I do strongly suspect that direct buy (as we are most likely going to keep the pay to pretty option in games) will eventually end up being the best practice way to go with cash shops in the future.

 

There are a lot of good points people have come up with here - both that it is the individual's responsibility to decide if they want to purchase the boxes to begin with ('but it's the only way to get xyz cosmetic!) and that the gaming industry as a whole needs to see that the more predatory practices that're becoming more common place are not acceptable, and that they are being watched both by the governments and the consumers. Legislation can be changed based on consumer opinion. Also, as EA is finding with pressure from Disney, even without legislation, consumer opinion can change how a company that holds rights to a franchise distributes the marketing and production for their franchise.

 

It'll be interesting to watch how all of this changes, and if it changes any of the current practices with loot crates and cash shops before any form of legislation can be enacted regarding the crates and games. It's going to end up taking gamers across all generations putting their foot down and saying 'No' by speaking with their wallets to really curb the practices that are becoming more prevalent.

[Tsillah]

The marketing psychology is the same, irrespective of the virtual or physical nature of the item being purchased.

Only when people don't realise the difference. People believe they own something when they don't. I admit there are similarities but as long as you keep your cards in good condition they will be a trading commodity, once BW shuts down the servers nothing will left.

 

The added issue with virtual goods is that they are not real goods and their value is only there as long as the company provides the platform for it, in this case SWTOR.

 

If people realised that what they are buying is not ownership but a lease or rental of an item for an undefined period of time that can be ended at any time by Bioware, they might look differently at it.

 

There are baseball cards that are over 70 years old that still have trading value. MMOs are not expected to be around that long. So aside from the gambling issue there is the issue of what it is you're actually spending your money on and whether or not people understand this.

 

When people buy cartel packs, the trade of items is a key element because most items you will not want and what your investment will grant you in game is dependent on RNG. Since cartel packs have a fixed value (for example 300 CC), the reality is that the rare items and particularly platinum items represent this value. That means that when you open a pack and you don't get "anything good" out if it, that pack's content is worth less than than the 300 CC. When you pull that platinum out of a pack the 300 CC was well below the value of that item so your investment gets a big return. However, since the really cool and desireable items are rare most packs have contents that are below the value of the cost. So what do you do? You either buy a couple and hope you're lucky or none at all...or you buy a bunch of them to minimize the risk of coming out short...but it means you have to spend more money to get that.

 

So most people who buy cartel packs either have to spend more than they might like to or they lose out and their return of investment doesn't pay off. I call it an investment because you put money into something with an uncertain outcome. You might win big or you might lose out. Chances are you will lose out unless you are willing to fork out a few hundred bucks...and even then you might be unlucky.

 

If that's not a form of gambling by definition, I think it should be. Now that classification may not make something illegal because gambling is allowed under specific circumstances but game makers will have to make choices towards which type of audience they want to market their games. A teen rated game would not be appropriate in my view.

 

Disney has understood how slippery this slope is and the profit loss is EA's and not theirs. I really am not sure how enjoyable the game is for people now they can only gain loot crates the hard way and I doubt EA can reintroduce loot boxes before xmas. Another row over this just before xmas would be even worse I imagine. I believe they're going to have to do something to make their progression system interesting again and without relying on the easy loot box system they wanted. I suspect that no matter what, reintroducing loot boxes in some form will create another sh..storm.

[ARavingLooony]

This has become a global issue. We all know EA is greedy. Buying up lowbie development houses and ruining their beloved games and sucking the life out of the community.

 

Sound familiar??

 

Now with battlefront's crates countries have considered the Random Number Generated crates gambling. Just yesterday Hawaii was added to the ever growing list.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/22/state-legislators-call-eas-game-a-star-wars-themed-online-casino-preying-on-kids-vow-action.html

 

https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/22/belgium-moves-to-ban-star-wars-battlefront-2-style-loot-boxes/

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-11-22-star-wars-battlefront-2-loot-crates-belgian-gaming-commission-hawaii-chris-lee

 

https://news.google.com/news/story?ncl=dsBXRSlqC39zkgM55HWLL0gEzafKM&q=EA+gambling&lr=English&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjy2sLlwNLXAhUH1mMKHbuKBqMQqgIIKzAA&dogfood=no

 

 

Battlefront isn't the only game being investigated on their RNG systems, Overwatch is on the list as well.

 

Sure SWTOR is mostly cosmetic, but there are buyable boosts and insta level 60 and 65 tokens with a just announced insta 70 token coming soon.

 

People complain about high GTN prices when other dump money into cartel coins to get rare items to sell at high credit prices. People complain about credit farmers, bots, and spam. When there is a direct connection to high GTN prices and 3rd party credit sale websites.

 

People will spend their money on cartel coins for these RNG crates, effectively gambling yo get a rare item to use or sell to afford another item. People set up bots to gain CXP for RNG crates in a horrible end game gearing system.

 

Battlefront's crates are to skip content and get end game bonuses quicker. SWTOR's RNG crates are just as much of a gambling issue.

 

So when do we see a change?

 

A happy gamer is a good gamer willing to pay extra for cosmetic items via micro transactions. Piss off these customers, and stocks tumble when they stop buying, subscribing, and playing.

 

This is only the beginning. We need to take a stand now and speak with out bank accounts. Boycott all cartel purchases, unsub. If you want change, you'll have to do it where it hurts the most. The bottom line.

 

the ppl who buy lvl boosts r stupid, they miss out on interesting class storylines and waste their money as it REALLY doesn't take that long to reach max lvl. Just buy xp boosts which r rlly cheap and keep using em each time they run out.

[Foambreaker]

Next someone is going to tell us they have reported EA to the Nevada Gaming Commission.

 

lol

 

snicker

 

LOL

 

chuckle

 

RFLMAO

[Andryah]

crates are only dangerous if the act of spending money can (rng willing) give you an edge over others.

 

This was true for bf2 at launch, true for games like hearthstone, but not true for cartel packs. If you think that cool looking armor is gonna make you superior to others and you end up spending $200 to get it, that's your fault.

 

+10

 

What they did with BF2 was stupid and I think they now see that. But it has absolutely nothing to do with SWTOR. Some players are just band-wagoning the flap over BF2, through false equivalence attempts, to try to fluff up their complaints about the CM in SWTOR.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Andryah

[TUXs]

Crates are only dangerous if the act of spending money can (RNG willing) give you an edge over others.

 

This was true for BF2 at launch, true for games like Hearthstone, but not true for cartel packs. If you think that cool looking armor is gonna make you superior to others and you end up spending $200 to get it, that's your fault.

I've never died in PvP to a poorly dressed player...only good looking ones. That may just be a coincidence, but I don't think it is...the gooder you look, the gooder you play.

[CaptRogue]

I've never died in PvP to a poorly dressed player...only good looking ones. That may just be a coincidence, but I don't think it is...the gooder you look, the gooder you play.

 

*head desk*

 

Oh gosh!

[TUXs]

*head desk*

 

Oh gosh!

 

Hey now...no spoiling my fantasy...

[Foambreaker]

These are packs not crates and no one cares about packs.

 

You can't buy crates.

[Liquor]

RNG is false advertising.

Nothing is Random in software. It all 1's and 0's. Very advanced algorithms, but still the outcome isn't truly random.

 

The game knows how many items are out there. It know how many times an item is given. RNG is based on numbers, small percentages which can be fine tuned. It's always in favor of the house. The house wants you to spend money on these loot boxes and they are marketed in a way to do so.

 

Putting end game items, faster ways to reach end game, and more powerful items is what these loot boxes are about. It is geared to be the primary way to progress through the game vis "RNG".

 

I'm ok with insta 70's. Fools read too much into it or didn't read the posts at all. They made assumptions.

But those that use them without leaning the actual game, put themselves at a disadvantage.

I made no attempt to speak for you. I can careless about you and your views. They are your opinions, noone cares.

Comsmetic gear in boxes I'm ok with. It doesn't impact end game. But the current end game system killed swtor.

 

I simply made a discussion thread, posted videos and references to back up my stance/opinion.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Liquor

[PlagaNerezza]

Well, it all depends. Right now, even if I approve the initiative of more direct sales (should have been in this game since the beginning), there will still be some other questions or problem to solve, like if it's "normal" to spend 5k cartel coins (40euro) for just a lightsaber, who cost as much as the whole game. But that's not the same subject at all

 

As long as its got a price and has a direct sale option the RNG crate issue for me disappears as a gambling problem. What EA was slammed for was that in original analysis of BF 2 they required direct purchase gambling as a mechanism effectively for advancement.

 

I see no problem with some RNG if the person has a choice. Once that choice is lifted as a consumer you've turned the game loot boxes into slot machine pulls. If you want to sell a $40.00 virtual lightsaber go ahead. I personally won't spend money on it. I take issue with spend $100's of dollars at a chance to maybe win that item as a hypercrate isn't even guaranteed to drop 1. Meaning that at retail full price that is more than $40.00s and still might not be enough. However, sell a pack like its got a realistic chance of you opening just 1 and winning. Its completely non-sense. I've never paid irl money for a pack directly. My sub gets me free ones. I've used ingame currency to buy a few. Those things are gambling packs. hell they call them chance cubes. If that isn't gambling I don't know what would be defined as gambling.

 

As someone would made virtual currency on those I know what it is. I've made money on the spreads between the crate and individual pack. Rarely on the items themselves I get. Those are losers generally. Sell the packs for money. Buy the items direct on the gtn. The one spin item keeps these players broke.

 

Give me your 1.2 million for my pack. Here's your slot machine pull good luck. Nothing. Or sorry bro. Go run some dailies. I got 25 more to sell.

 

Frankly, I think the credit sellers have a spread on this all around. Hypercrates are like the same few players. I see 10 on there. They then sell me at full price a crate. I have time to break it down so they leave me a spread. They resell the credits for the profit. Seems to me like the gambling economy is easier for the credit sellers than bot building.

[Jett-Rinn]

I never minded the cartel packs and I always found the welfare game mentality a bit tedious and unrealistic, it's kinda like watching that kid we all knew in high school who went into a homicidal rage every time some other student with a nicer car drove by.

 

Iv'e actually had folks send me all kind of hateful tells in game just because what Costume or vehicle my character was on...then I get lectured about being a whale and told to kill myself.

 

I guess it's the nature of Star Wars fans.....I love the IP, but the fans are by and large a collection of toxic nutjobs.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Jett-Rinn