Class Changes: Arsenal Merc / Gunnery Commando

[scardera]

Based on Bant's spreadsheet, these proposed 5.3 changes will put Mercenary Arsenal/Commando Gunnery below Sorcerer Lightning/Sage Telekinetics

 

Sorcerer - Lightning = 9324.83

Mercenary - Arsenal = 9163.96

 

jeeezz...we all know it would happen they overreacted like always Merc will be useless now...they lost a subscriber today

[ViciousFett]

While Merc did need some damage nerf, I feel the real issue that made them so OP is RESPONSIVE SAFEGUARDS Which absorbs all incoming damage for 6 seconds, reflects 50%, AND heals the merc for 5% of their health for every hit.

 

This is what made merc so OP with 5.0, not their damage....

 

I'd rather see all the damage perks left alone and RS scaled down than have them get a heavy damage nerf and no change to RS.

 

amiright?

[Exly]

Hey folks,

 

Round 2! Below are the changes planned for Arsenal Merc / Gunnery Commando in Game Update 5.3. Here are the notes from the Combat Team:

 

Let us know what you think of the changes coming to Arsenal and Gunnery in GU 5.3. Thanks!

 

I just checked out the automated ratings here and I am left wondering why you think you need to nerf merc dps. Mercs are already performing 3rd to last in hard mode operations.

 

It would make sense to nerf them if they were actually op, but they aren't, they are already below average. Maybe you should take another look at your metrics and see if your philosophy on class balance actually makes sense before nerfing classes into oblivion just to meet your target number.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Exly

[AllisonLightning]

Would people stop trying to angle for the class wide nerf on DCDs so that it hurts the healers which needed them (and have to take utility options as well)? I mean I could understand if people wanted heal/reflect damage to be restricted to just the healer commando/mercenary. When people whine about DPS Sorcerer/Sages, they never needed a nerf to survivability or DPS but they were hurt by the DPS whack to the face- it was the healer Sorcerer/Sages that needed the fix.

 

It will keep being too much if they continue to nerf entire ACs based on a particular aspect of their DPS/Heal/Tank branch.

 

And Lightning Sorcerers are the real victims so let's please not whine you'll have it as bad.

 

I PvP but sometimes I think a vast majority of PvPers won't be happy until all you can do is kill the other person without any need for strategy or concern for unique abilities. How easy is it to not attack the giant reflecting bubble with the abilities that cause it to hurt you/heal them?

[LonelyWookiee]

Dear Friendly Neighborhood Combat Team,

 

I know a lot of people are upset that Merc defense isn't being nerfed more (sure, I'm one) but I also understand, (because you explained it so well) that the changes are currently focused on bringing their DPS in line with their assigned category. I trust the defense adjustments will come later. I think these changes are good, on target, and I will be very happy not to be on the receiving end of anymore excessively high critical demo rounds.

 

- LW

 

P.S. Wipe the slate clean and give every adv. class a unique healing, DPS, and tank spec. I wanna Operative tank!

Edited June 17, 2017 by LonelyWookiee

[Gyronamics]

I just checked out the automated ratings here and I am left wondering why you think you need to nerf merc dps. Mercs are already performing 3rd to last in hard mode operations.

 

It would make sense to nerf them if they were actually op, but they aren't, they are already below average. Maybe you should take another look at your metrics and see if your philosophy on class balance actually makes sense before nerfing classes into oblivion just to meet your target number.

 

Yes but that's real fight data with tens of thousands of samples. It's not an approved standard.

 

I mean it's open to interpretation but it sounds like the measure in use is the good old 5 mins on a single target dummy which has been warned about for years about requiring a shovel of salt in how it translates into PVE and PVP fighting.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Would people stop trying to angle for the class wide nerf on DCDs so that it hurts the healers which needed them (and have to take utility options as well)?

 

Personally, I don't see Bodyguard keeping some of the DCDs as an issue. It's a healer spec, healing DCDs seems appropriate.

[thetexascuban]

While Merc did need some damage nerf, I feel the real issue that made them so OP is RESPONSIVE SAFEGUARDS Which absorbs all incoming damage for 6 seconds, reflects 50%, AND heals the merc for 5% of their health for every hit.

 

This is what made merc so OP with 5.0, not their damage....

 

I'd rather see all the damage perks left alone and RS scaled down than have them get a heavy damage nerf and no change to RS.

 

amiright?

 

Exactly sir, exactly

[Hombad]

I just checked out the automated ratings here and I am left wondering why you think you need to nerf merc dps. Mercs are already performing 3rd to last in hard mode operations.

 

It would make sense to nerf them if they were actually op, but they aren't, they are already below average. Maybe you should take another look at your metrics and see if your philosophy on class balance actually makes sense before nerfing classes into oblivion just to meet your target number.

 

L O L

 

This might be due to the overrepresentation of bad mercs due to their baseline strengths (more popular pic, more people play, more bad people play, hence lower overall rating vs. specialised mains like lightning sorc nim mains).

 

Arsenal is 100% overperforming in NiM.

 

Arguably the strongest burst spec in game when measured against their sustained dps (up with Carnage), and ranged to boot, with very little resource management required, and a low skill ceiling. They are in NO WAY below average. Not to mention their durability/dcds, which have been discussed at length.

 

In the right hands, you couldn't go wrong with running 4 arsenal mercs in a raid team (with some range adjustment so 2 sit in melee range for certain fights like Tyrans). That is a bad sign.

 

Just because players are bad/perform poorly does not mean that the class itself is bad.

[TopAceOfEarth]

Yes but that's real fight data with tens of thousands of samples. It's not an approved standard.

 

I mean it's open to interpretation but it sounds like the measure in use is the good old 5 mins on a single target dummy which has been warned about for years about requiring a shovel of salt in how it translates into PVE and PVP fighting.

 

That and 16+ Pages of players in general agreement on what the real issue is.

 

I mean all they would have needed to adjust was the surge nerf they did to marksman before and change le utilities...

Edited June 17, 2017 by TopAceOfEarth

[thetexascuban]

As others have mentioned here, I never thought of mercs' dps being an issue. Their SUPER HEALS are the problem!

I can understand if you guys are trying to find a middle ground against all those biased, die-hard merc/commando players and pretty much the rest of us, but this is no middle ground. You are quite simply not making anyone happy with this.

 

Now, I have had lengthy discussions with friends of mine about mercs' suvivability. While I see some of their points I simply cannot come to agree with them. I understand that mercs had very little defenses before 5.0, I do, but that's no reason to give them the most op "defensive" cds in the whole game (I have more than 40 days of playtime on my commando). I am no outsider to mercs and can easily say I know quite a bit about them, so I will say what I think of the arguments pro-merc people have made to me (about Responsive Safeguards). I will do this from the point of view of someone who has played commandos a lot and someone who is too frustrated with how hard they are to kill.

 

1) they say "You can still aoe them while they use RS"

True, but what good is that unless you are an engineer sniper? If you are pretty much any other class, you will only be able to take 5% (10 at most) of their health with aoe while they use 2-3 of their abilities and take a much bigger chunk of yours. Besides, most classes' aoe is very taxing on their energy, so you'd also be wasting that.

2) "You can put dots on them"

True, but how much will that really achieve unless you're a dot class (aka, if you're burst you're screwed). Using dots outside of the rotation cycle can also be quite taxing on the class' energy, even for dot classes.

3) "You can take a little break, los them and heal up"

You guessed it, only operatives, sorcs, and other mercs can do that. Nevertheless, even these classes are likely to win very little from trying to run away for an los (good luck if electronet is on you) and casting a couple of healing abilities that will only give them 5-20% health. Those abilities (with the exemption of scoundrel's "slow release medpac") can also be taxing on energy and will rarely crit, if they ever do. There are also the big self heals that sorcs and mercs have but those are very likely on a cd already, so yeah...

4) "Just stun them and move on"

Yeah right... What if your stuns are on a cd? Stuns are very situational and tend to be used quite often, so most players won't have this option available when needed.

 

Now, another thing I consider to be way too unfair for anyone fighting mercs is the damn utility that makes adrenaline rush the most op self heal in the entire game (do not even try to argue with this). Many a times I've had 1v1 fights with mercs/commandos that were pretty fun up until the moment when they magically went up to nearly full health, even though I was still stuck at my sad 20%... I think you can guess who won every time.

 

I repeat, please understand that none of us is complaining about mercs' dps output, our problem is with their super healing! Nerfing their dps output makes them trash in pve content, and nobody wishes that.

 

My suggestions?

1- Make responsive safeguards a reflect only, get rid of that ridiculous healing. Make it reflect 100% dmg if you must (shorten it's time though), but please just make it an actual defensive cd and not the multi-purpose (especially that healing) op skill it is today. Basically, make it similar to Jug's saber reflect, that'd be much more fair.

2- Eliminate the utility that makes adrenaline rush go up to 70% and bring it back down to 40-50% or so. Decrease its cd if you must.

3- For the love of God, don't nerf their dps for no reason...

Edited June 18, 2017 by thetexascuban

[thetexascuban]

That and 16+ Pages of players in general agreement on what the real issue is.

 

I mean all they would have needed to adjust was the surge nerf they did to marksman before and change le utilities...

 

Yep, exactly

[thetexascuban]

not really we need that survival or we will be back ad 4.0

when we are just paper no thx

 

and no1 talk about opertive survival and there insane damage they can do with only there knive

 

Like others have said, mercs did need an actual defensive cd (something like shield probe), but these superheals are way too unfair on everyone else.

Also, knives are operatives' weapons, there is nothing wrong with that. Plus, don't even dare to compare their survivability to that of mercs..

[Gyronamics]

2- Eliminate the utility that makes adrenaline rush go up to 70% and bring it back down to 50% as it has always been.

 

You mean as it never was?

 

It was originally 15% healing over 10s

Then healing up to 30% for 8s

Then healing up to 35% for 8s

 

All with the same 3 minute cooldown with every version I might add

 

Now with a utility it heals up to 70% heals twice as strongly and carries on for 10s

 

That's actually worth the 3 minute cooldown that has no reductions. Nothing has a longer cooldown.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Gyronamics

[thetexascuban]

You mean as it never was?

 

It was originally 15% healing over 10s

Then healing up to 30% for 8s

Then healing up to 35% for 8s

 

All with the same 3 minute cooldown with every version I might add

 

Now with a utility it heals up to 70% heals twice as strongly and carries on for 10s

 

That's actually worth the 3 minute cooldown that has no reductions. Nothing has a longer cooldown.

 

Thanks for pointing that out, my memory was a bit clouded. But the ability is certainly not ok the way it is. Reduce its cd if you want, but nerf it the heck down, going from 0 to 70% health in a matter of seconds is way too unfair for enemies.

Edited June 17, 2017 by thetexascuban

[StagT]

While Merc did need some damage nerf, I feel the real issue that made them so OP is RESPONSIVE SAFEGUARDS Which absorbs all incoming damage for 6 seconds, reflects 50%, AND heals the merc for 5% of their health for every hit.

 

This is what made merc so OP with 5.0, not their damage....

 

I'd rather see all the damage perks left alone and RS scaled down than have them get a heavy damage nerf and no change to RS.

 

amiright?

 

Please... We all can deal with a 6 sec dcd every 2 min (kite, CC, aoe damages...)

Trauma regulators is the real issue that made them so OP.. It is so often available ( with utility less than one min CD), last 12 sec AND can be clicked before the end of these 12 sec if the merc need his H2full sooner...

Way harder to counter than RS

 

But yeah, Bioware is completely wrong about this nerf. Terribles changes...

[Gyronamics]

Please... We all can deal with a 6 sec dcd every 2 min (kite, CC, aoe damages...)

Trauma regulators is the real issue that made them so OP.. It is so often available ( with utility less than one min CD), last 12 sec AND can be clicked before the end of these 12 sec if the merc need his H2full sooner...

Way harder to counter than RS

 

That's more to do with the utility that's been around since the beginning of the game allowing shield CD reduction suddenly having horrible consequences when it became easier to take in 5.0 plus utility of healing potential from shield

 

If that was removed then shield has a minimum 105s CD with 2pc set bonus that brings it down from 120s.

 

reflect is 120s cd

kolto overload 180s cd <- the only heal you cannot get around

 

That's basically it apart from decoy. All on long cds by default.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Gyronamics

[Amun-Re]

I play my Commando at first as a healer, a twink as an Gunnery.

The first thing I would look at, in what situation is it neccessary to buff/nerf a class - pvp ode pve?

I think the most feedback about an "overpowerd class" comes from pvp-players. If you change offense specs you should really look at the changes for pve! Not for story operations, but for the last bosses in Veteran and even more in Master Modes. After every class nerf the pve content should be playable as before. In the past there were a few problems, when you nerf some classes.

It makes no sense to me, that classes which are in the average DPS range like the gunnery DPS Ranking 5.2 should be nerved. That the costs for some skills will be changed, should be ok (for me).

 

Some people here give the hint, that in pvp the deffes of the Commando are too strong. You should keep that in mind! That seems a problem for pvp-players. But you should also have a look at the situation, that some pvp players are single players and some are in a guild and do nothing else, than pvp.

I'm not a super pvp player, but it make nothing to choose, how strong your deffs are, when you're fokused by 2-5 oponents from a pvp guild. I think the one vs one situation is the situation to keep an eye on it. And yes, the Commando has strong deffs.

 

Do not nerf DPS/HPS of classes for pvp and ruined them for pve operations!

Maybe for a better balancing of the classes it could also be helpfull, that at first the matching in pvp is more exactly than it is at that time. It happend too often, that you have in a 4 vs 4 arena for example 3 DD's + 1 Tank vs 3 Healers + 1 DD. In such situations it makes a big different what classes are in the team, in self healing, stun and stun breakers, deffs, etc. If the matching would be more exactly, the class balancing problems were not such a big deal, because the teamplay could cover a lot, I guess.

[Aetideus]

Do not nerf DPS/HPS of classes for pvp and ruined them for pve operations!

 

That is what they propose, and not even a nerf for PvP.

[Evolixe]

Just wondering, do you play both higher tiers of PVP and PVE?

 

Yes I do.

[GolgoXIII]

Well I don't know if it has been mentioned before but I kind of wonder how much with people speaking of the problems that they see as the main issues, and how much bioware will actually pay attention to what people have to say. I really don't understand the logic about this whole +8% and -5% to the norm as I really don't understand how they get to this point.

 

I have to say how many people play the Marksman sniper now in pve? as it appears to be pretty busted when comparing it to virulence and engineering, when push comes to shove when people are doing the hard modes they are going to naturally gravitate to the thing that gives them the best bang for their buck and then there is no variety in the game, all it does is make it a boring oh everyone is the same until someone at bioware notices and changes another spec and the whole thing repeats itself with the new flavour of the month build.

 

Ultimately in the end these changes are because of pvp and to be honest this is a very sound arguement that abilities should probably have different affects in pvp to pve but that involves work on biowares behalf, work that I would hope that they would be willing to put in but at the present moment they appear to have no interest in doing so.

Edited June 17, 2017 by GolgoXIII

[gabylarson]

One thing, what do they want us to play in range dps in PVE HL: not arsenal mercenary, not lighting sorcerer sniper virulence will be the only way to have valuable range dps in a group ?

Sniper and Mercs have too much and too strong DCD that a fact, everybody knows it but nerf DPS isnt a good idea

[yellow_]

[1:54 AM] Multicam L3E7: Based on Bant's spreadsheet, the proposed 5.3 changes to Merc Arsenal will lower it's DPS by 886

[1:56 AM] doc: putting it where in the rankings?

[1:56 AM] MrBinks: around lightning sorc?

[1:56 AM] MrBinks: that would make me giggle

[1:59 AM] Multicam L3E7: At the bottom

[1:59 AM] Vasmi: by like a couple hundred

[1:59 AM] Multicam L3E7: Sorcerer - Lightning = 9324.83

[1:59 AM] Multicam L3E7: Mercenary - Arsenal = 9163.96

[1:59 AM] doc: lol

For anyone curious. Unless Bant needs to update the rotation to improve the DPS Arsenal may be about to have the worst damage parse in the game.

[stoopicus]

For anyone curious. Unless Bant needs to update the rotation to improve the DPS Arsenal may be about to have the worst damage parse in the game.

 

Nice. So they are severely nerfed for PvE while remaining full of issues for PvP. Literally the worst of both worlds. Then, in a few months when the utilities nerfs happen, Mercs will be at the bottom in PvP too. I feel bad for them.

[nyrkverse]

I don't main arsenal merc so I won't pretend to know the discipline ins and outs.

 

I understand the need to adjust it down, however the damage nerf seems excessive to me. Lowering the crit bonus will impact every ability and coupling it with the increased heat cost of BB seems more than enough, especially because I don't think it should be brought down to lighting and MM depths (on the contrary, those 2 should be propped up a bit).

 

I also don't really understand the need to nerf decoy, especially if you're going to look at utilities later. That's where the focus should be to tone down merc's outstanding survivability, decoy is something very specific to Arsenal and I would prefer to see it unchanged.

 

Also having lived through the destruction of Hatred (not just the damage potential but the very feel of the spec), I'm wary of this type of incremental changes that keep chipping things off here and there when one focused change (survivability + crit bonus removal in this case) could suffice. If you nerf the damage to this extent and decoy now and the utilities later, I worry that Arsenal will be left with very little.

Edited June 17, 2017 by nyrkverse