OddballEasyEight Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 This thread isn't about dealing with reactions. Are you sure about that? Because the thread name suggests otherwise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtJeremy Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 lern 2 play u scrubz, unsub n nevr play agian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 "but you already knew that" No just no, because that's implying that that the person is just playing dumb intentionally. If I was in a WPvP area and someone said that to me I would immediately kill them. Your intention doesn't matter, only how you words are perceived matters, and I and sure most people would perceive that comment as a insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_of_Mu Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) I find anything that ends with, "But you already knew that didn't you". To be totally passive aggressive. Might as well just get Microsoft Clippy to ask, "It looks like you're trying to <Insert role>. Would you like some help with that?" Edited October 28, 2014 by Lord_of_Mu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gleneagle Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 The phrase "But you already knew that didn't you" is for their benefit, so they don't have to admit that they're not playing the right way. If they did or didn't know what you've told them already, they can just shrug it off and say "Yeah I did know that" without feeling stupid. I fail to see how that phrase is in any way patronizing. Yours is a nice sentiment but you cannot control how others will take it. It is rather like theory-crafting and min-maxing: the best of intentions like the best laid plans are prone to grow askew. All it takes is a little dose of human unpredictability and intentions, like algorithms, are bolloxed beyond recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 This is kind of an hilarious troll thread as you guys try to explain to him why something that is obviously patronizing is in fact patronizing. Unless of course English isn't his first language and/or he doesn't understand the definition of patronizing. But I'm kind of doubting that at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gleneagle Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I suspect the OP isn't from the US, that his or her culture is rather different from ours, and have assumed the sentiment was sincere. Many cultures are exceedingly ethnocentric: Ours foremost among them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curulz Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Noone has explained why it's patronizing, they just said it was patronizing. You people are a lost cause. All you can do is nit-pick about the negatives. The way you're using that phrase is patronizing because of the tone you're using. As I said in the OP, you need a calm and friendly tone. But of course, you have to concentrate on the negatives. Tone is important, but choice of words is also, especially since you're typing it to them....hard to discern tone while reading short sentences. If someone is playing poorly, it is either because they don't know, or it was an accident, or they did it intentionally. By saying '"but you know that right?" You are implying they did it intentionally. I don't know if patronizing is the word I would use but it can come across as accusatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Gotta love this thread. OP makes a thread on how to explain things nicely to someone. Gives advice that makes you look like a condescending jerk. Other posters explain nicely why the advice is bad. OP acts like a condescending jerk to everyone. English isn't your first language is it? Is it yours? Edited October 28, 2014 by MillionsKNives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dras_Keto Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 This thread is freaking hilarious. And its so typical, too. Trying to couch your insults in vague innuendo and euphemisms just makes you a coward. If you want to say something, at least have the guts to come out and SAY IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Really difficult to decide whether this is an elaborate troll or actually serious. Please be a troll. Edited October 28, 2014 by Darkelefantos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dras_Keto Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Please be a troll. Sorry to disappoint you, but this guy is dead serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedip_enguin Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Thread provided lulz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeoftime Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Scenario 1: Player 1 is having a bit of trouble with his rotation. Player 2 PM's him and says "Hey if you do this, it will help your damage. But you already knew that didn't you." Player 1 says "Heh heh yeah, I just forgot" Player 2 never brings it up again unless Player 1 asks. Scenario 2: Player 1 is having a bit of trouble with his rotation Player 2 PM's him and says "Hey I noticed you had some trouble with your rotation, would you mind if I gave you some suggestions?" Player 1 thinks for a moment, wondering if Player 2 thinks he's a moron for not playing properly, or if maybe something is actually wrong with the way he's playing his character, and not just his rotation. Both possibilities make him feel worthless. Player 1 either gets upset at Player 2 and tells him to leave him alone, or meekly accepts Player 2's offering to help with his rotation, thereby admitting to himself and Player 2 that he is playing his character the wrong way, making him feel even more worthless. Scenario 1: Player 1 is having a bit of trouble with his rotation. Player 2 PM's them and says "Hey if you do this, it will help your damage. But you already knew that didn't you." Player 1 thinks ".....that was either incredibly patronizing cause if they thought i knew it already, they wouldn't bring it up, so they're just pretending, or they're actually accusing me of messing up on purpose. no thanks." Player 1 tries to stay far away from Player 2 because welp, thanks for the anxiety spike there! Just what was needed for a good day. Scenario 2: Player 1 is having a bit of trouble with his rotation Player 2 PM's them and says "Hey I noticed you had some trouble with your rotation, would you mind if I gave you some suggestions?" Player 1 thinks for a moment, comes to the conclusion that there's no harm in hearing if they're playing less than optimally and agrees because it was a friendly worded suggestion after all and feels perfectly fine about it. Look... I have severe social anxiety. I have severe self worth problems. In 10 months of playing, I've never queued on my own and every time I do use GF, even with my girlfriend, it makes me anxious. I recently agreed to do the Section X heroic and was so incredibly glad the moment I got out there simply because I took a moment to click a thing because it wouldn't let me at first, because that alone made me anxious again. I regularly have to remind myself I'm worth anything at all. And that phrase? It's patronizing. It would make me want to get away from the content I was doing, and by extension the person using it as fast as I can. It's not helpful. It doesn't make you sound nice. I get it, you want to be nice and helpful and that's great, but that phrase? Is not helping with that. It really, really, really isn't. Because honestly, the implication behind it isn't "haha i can just brush it off and follow the advice anyway", it's what I stated in scenario 1. It doesn't make feel people good. Asking nicely if someone wants advice is always, always preferable, because it gives people a choice. If they're interested, they'll say yes and they'll appreciate being given the choice instead of having advice forced on them and then having a "but you knew that already" tagged onto it and feeling even more patronized. If they're not interested they can say as much and appreciate the choice. (or they're one of the "lololol l2p noob i know everything better!11!!" people in which case your method wouldn't have worked either.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandicus Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 OP, tone does not carry across in text accurately. This is because words are read in a default context, as opposed to heard according to literal tone of the person speaking. The default context of "but you knew that already didn't you" is sarcastic and belittling. If that is not how you are familiar with people using the phrase, that's fine, but when you communicate you have to take into consideration what other people are hearing, not just what you're hearing yourself say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYYankee Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) The intention of the OP is in the right place. That said, as the multitude of replies have shown, the particular wording that was suggested will be interpreted by a large number of people as being patronizing. I don't know that it's worth arguing why it's misinterpreted. It's like when I talk to my girlfriend, I sometimes say things that I intend to be nice or funny, but she interprets them differently than I intended, and becomes upset with me. At the end of the day, arguing with her over whether or not her interpretation is valid does not benefit either of us. We just move forward and I learn to phrase things differently. I believe that the intention of the OP can be realized, but (as some have already suggested) by using slightly differently phrasing, such as: You may already know this, but... I found that this approach really worked for me... I'm having a hard time <maintaining aggro, avoiding damage, etc> , would you mind... Please.... In addition to the phrasing of the advice itself, it's important how you interact throughout the whole encounter. Someone who starts of the mission with a greeting and then congratulates, complements, and thanks the group as they go along will typically be given much more latitude when giving critiques than one who stays silent and only speaks up to tell someone to do something differently. EDIT: I'd also recommend providing advice as a whisper. No one likes to be called out or criticized in front of a group of people. A whisper is more personal and some people may respond to it better. Edited October 28, 2014 by NYYankee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calsetes Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I do it a few ways: Could I give you some tips? Here's what I've found helpful when playing as my (insert class here)... I've found that doing A then doing B helps out a bit because of C. It's fairly unobtrusive, doesn't come off as "Do it this way!" and hey - if my info's wrong, then I find out a better way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdatt Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) .. unless you go around telling people randomly what they're doing wrong, and that's a whole different ballgame)... Saw a Sentinel on Black Hole last week. No class buffs, was in walk mode, and no saber form chosen. I thought about giving him some tips, but just gave him my class buffs and moved on. Edited October 28, 2014 by bdatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Poe's Law is in full effect here, but I'll go on the assumption OP is serious... Tell them in a calm and friendly tone, ^ Absolutely correct! This is key to giving any constructive feedback and not coming across like a jerk. and then when you're done, say "But you already knew that didn't you". ^ Absolutely not. This phrase comes across as passive-aggressive, condescending, and insincere. I'd rather have someone say "Dude, PUT ON SORESU WHEN YOU'RE TANKING!!!!" than say "If you're tanking you need to have your Soresu Form on. But you already knew that, didn't you?" Then, unless they ask for more information, drop the subject entirely. What they do with that information is up to them. You cannot control what other people do. ^ Also solid advice. --------- Bonus round: The nice way to acknowledge that a phrase you thought was innocuous (or even helpful) actually comes across as offensive: "My mistake. That phrase honestly sounds harmless to me, and I expected people to take it that way. But since there are dozens of people telling me that is not how they would interpret it, I can probably come up with another phrase instead that will do a better job of communicating what I was actually going for. How does starting the feedback with 'sorry if you already know this, but I've found...' sound to others?" Edited October 28, 2014 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foambreaker Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 That sounds incredibly patronizing. But you already knew that didn't you. I was thinking sarcastic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dras_Keto Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I was thinking sarcastic... In this case, same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyraineAlei Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I use the phrase "You already know the rules, my friend." when talking to the kids at work. However, in text form it sounds snotty and mean. Communication is more than just words with intention. Most of communication is actually hearing and interpreting sounds, facial expression, body language, and accompanying hand motions. That is how some people who do not share a language can still communicate in some basic form. Not saying a fully effective system, but as a poster above showed, even people who share a culture and language still misunderstand each other. "But you already knew that" in spoken form could sound less accusatory, but in text form, there is no body language to read, no pitch to hear. Just words. Sticks and stones may break bones, but words can scar forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharofxev Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 but words can scar forever AS my guild leader is so fond of saying, "Your opinion about me does not matter TO me." He also throws in, "It's a jury of one and the verdict's in". @ The low self-esteem guy - have you seen a doc? I know when we used to come back from the Middle East the Hospital would provide Wellbutrin like it was Pez. Now granted, there wasn't anything TRULY wrong with 90% of us (just a much lower tolerance for inconsequential BS), but they prescribed that crap anyway. You may have a chemical imbalance of some kind. (I'm not being patronizing, my major was Biochemistry). And if you ARE taking pills, get some blood work done AND get a second opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 You really think it's patronizing huh. I'd take it as a compliment. Oh well, guess I should've known better than to try extract some positivity out of a group of people who can see nothing but negatives. It's a lost cause. BTW, it's painfully obviously none of you have even read the thread. says the lost cause. you remind me of a character from clerks two, who was trying to "take back the porch monkeys" it doesn't matter what you supposedly intended. in this case what matters is how it comes across. random people in groupfinder can NOT read your mind, they can NOT read your intentions, they can only read the text you type and make conclusions from that. and what you are saying, contrary to your insistence? is not nice. its snide. helping people play better in a nice way is a good thing. YOUR way however is not nice way, no matter how many times you say it is. people, including me, have made multiple suggestions on how to ACTUALLY help nicely without making people bristle up as much, you are the one being negative, dismissing all of that advice as lost cause. ironic, ain't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValkyrieEin Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I think it'd help if you speak like an elcor: Genuine advice. You shouldn't stand in stupid. Genuine query. But you already knew that, didn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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