Future Content...

[Tatile]

TLDR - People assume poll results indicate // guarantee actual majority opinion and assume it will solely affect decision making.

 

-eric

 

Is that possibly also due to the long lead-time on some development? IIRC, there was a species poll prior to launch (I was not in beta), of which Cathar came out top. We got Cathar... a year and a half after launch, with great cries of "Bioware what the hell I didn't vote for this?!" and more general ambivalence and shruggings of "well, could we suggest other species? have a new poll?"

 

It would be nice, though, to have surveys sent out that aren't just about our experiences with Customer Services (aka M0-T0 copy-pasta.)

[Kaludy]

class stories are cool and all but I honestly would like to see more content that would bring the massive back to MMO. Star Wars is supposed to be in a galaxy yet it still doesn't quite feel like it. I can't really say exactly what I would like to see but, I guess something to make everything less static.

[JimG]

The percentage of players who actively use the forums is very small....and let's face it, the people with something to gripe about are more likely to find their way into the forums. Whether the players voting in the poll is a representative cross-section is complete speculation. Either way, it's still a very, very small amount of the actual players. Plus, with 5 voting options, there's no way to know whether "planets" was someone's 1st most priority or their 5th most priority, which is kind if important to know.

 

Some of these are rather pointless. We already know they will release more species and more planets (although it won't be anytime soon), so maybe people don't pick those because they already know the devs are working on those. For class stories, the devs already know people want more class stories....not exactly earth-shattering news there. They have chosen to do only faction-specific stories going forward, not because people don't care about more class stories, but because it takes 1/4 the development cost and time to do it that way. So a poll that a few hundred people vote in isn't going to make a lick of difference there. By the way, I would love more class stories, but I doubt most people would find 4 times as long of a development time for that content to be acceptable. Another option is new classes. I'm sure that would be of common interest to any MMO. It's generally one of the most popular requests by players in MMOs. However, if they added a new class, then they'd have to design 50 levels of class story for the new class. Yeah, that's not gonna happen. So, again, vote for that all you want but it's not going to matter.

 

Frankly, this poll doesn't provide any information that someone couldn't get by skimming the forums for a few days. The "utility" of the poll is being greatly exaggerated in the minds of the participants. If the devs really wanted to do polling, they'd do an in-game poll which would have a much better cross-section of the playerbase than this. Also, if you're going to have multiple options, they'd need to be ranked by priority so you could determine what are really the highest priorities among players. The 1st choice should not have the same footing as the 5th choice. Plus, there'd need to be some examples or description of those options. "Planets" doesn't really tell us much of what is being voted for there.

[KiithGaalsien]

they could just made polls ingame like they did during beta. this way, every player has a chance to vote and the poll is way more representative.

 

but this way, bw would clearly know what the players want leaving them in a situation where they cant release stuff noone/not many players want but are easy to made for BW.

 

This. I was browsing the topic and my GF immediately said (in regards to the reasons Eric Musco pointed out for not doing polls) "they should make an ingame poll that pops up when you log".

[OddballEasyEight]

Given in the last few posts from the development team there has been talk of listening to the player base and thanking the fans and telling us they are taking note this poll should have been created by the community team to give weight to the design choices of the development team. After all from the galactic star fighters blog

 

 

 

From this you would imagine PvP would be top of the votes as that's the direction that the SSSP took. Likewise if the development team are looking at what the player base want this poll gives them a good idea. Is class story something that should be ignored to focus on more generic story, it seems this would not be acting on player/fan feed back. So if we don't see any more class story it would be wrong for any more blogs to say we are acting on what the players want.

 

You are obviouly not familiar with the dozens and dozens (I think it was 22+ threads, each with a poll) polls made on what we wanted for space combat back in the early days of the game (when alot of people were creating threads complaining about the on-rails combat and including polls on what we would like instead).

Most of those polls came out with space combat versus other players in the top 3.

There is a HUGE differnce between ground PvP and space PvP (which is also why alot of "Pro" PvP players seem to hate the Galactic Starfighter beta, if you ask me.)

[StarMagus]

As I think back to it, when I saw Planets, I assumed they meant more things to do on planets. Like housing areas, social hubs, and the like. The idea of it just being More Planets didn't cross my mind as that was a given that we will have more planets like Makeb and Illum and the like. It's not like if the push out the story or raise the level cap they are going to try to squeeze in massive higher level zones on planets that already exist.. or at least from experience that isn't what they have been doing.

 

It would be funny though, you go down the wrong path on Tython as a level 2 Jedi Newb and suddenly get 1 shotted by a bunch of level 60 mobs.

Edited November 7, 2013 by StarMagus

[LordArtemis]

With all due respect I think Mr Musco is making the same mistake the original dev crew made.

 

If you dismiss the opinions of GD you possibly dismiss the opinion of the majority playerbase. Most of the negative moves and decisions the game made, which at least contributed to it's down fall early on were discussed in the forums quite extensively. Most of the improvements have come from the same, perhaps in small part.

 

This game is different, just like SWG was different. The gamers here are STAR WARS FANS by a vast majority I would assume, and therefore are much more invested than normal MMO players.

 

I would say it's likely our participation is much like STOs forum participation...we are fans of the genre first, game second.

 

Star Wars and Star Trek fans are often misunderstood and dismissed at the peril of those that do so.

[Andryah]

So what you are saying is that you have the best form of evidence... Anecdotal Evidence!

 

No.. I am sharing with you my observations in game that are in fact largely consistent with this poll.

 

Others in this thread have in fact echoed the same.

 

From my listening in on Fleet Conversations, I have gathered that the Topic of Obama is a big deal in the Game and the Dev's need to get something in game to reflect that.

 

learn to filter your observations to remove off-topic content IMO.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Andryah

[LordArtemis]

It's fine that we don't agree. I'm not dismissing the poll, I'm just feel that people shouldn't read more into it then what it is actually capable of producing. Again, I filled out the poll, and it's main high level scores match mine pretty closely. I can see something that matches my opinions, and still doubt the science behind it.

 

Well, I would say that anyone that says it is absolute undeniable proof would be making a foolish statement.

 

However, anyone that wishes to say its a good representation, though perhaps opinion, could make that observation based on other supporting evidence.

 

Mr Musco made a "exist in a vacuum" comment. To avoid taking it out of context, I will only say this...

 

This forum does not exist in a vacuum. This forum exists in a massive swath of information that includes the internet in it's entirety, blogs, reviews, in game chat, fan sites, etc.

 

When the majority of folks are falling in line, saying the same things, that should not be ignored. The original dev staff made that mistake at their own peril.

Edited November 7, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Clarian]

TLDR - People assume poll results indicate // guarantee actual majority opinion and assume it will solely affect decision making.

One way around that: don't let players see the results. In most consumer polls I've seen, they don't show you the results, so I don't think it's really expected.

 

Also, being able to rank your multiple choices in a poll like this would be good.

 

And also, doing it in-game so it's not restricted to forum-goers.

[TUXs]

With all due respect I think Mr Musco is making the same mistake the original dev crew made.

 

If you dismiss the opinions of GD you possibly dismiss the opinion of the majority playerbase. Most of the negative moves and decisions the game made, which at least contributed to it's down fall early on were discussed in the forums quite extensively. Most of the improvements have come from the same, perhaps in small part.

 

This game is different, just like SWG was different. The gamers here are STAR WARS FANS by a vast majority I would assume, and therefore are much more invested than normal MMO players.

 

I would say it's likely our participation is much like STOs forum participation...we are fans of the genre first, game second.

 

Star Wars and Star Trek fans are often misunderstood and dismissed at the peril of those that do so.

 

I don't blame Eric, but I agree with the rest of your post entirely!

[DOHboy]

snip

From my listening in on Fleet Conversations, I have gathered that the Topic of Obama is a big deal in the Game and the Dev's need to get something in game to reflect that.

we already have a training dummy....

[TUXs]

we already have a training dummy....

 

*BOOM* goes the dynamite! 10/10

[StarMagus]

we already have a training dummy....

 

People do seem to love beating up on straw men....

[Vandicus]

Well, I would say that anyone that says it is absolute undeniable proof would be making a foolish statement.

 

However, anyone that wishes to say its a good representation, though perhaps opinion, could make that observation based on other supporting evidence.

 

Mr Musco made a "exist in a vacuum" comment. To avoid taking it out of context, I will only say this...

 

This forum does not exist in a vacuum. This forum exists in a massive swath of information that includes the internet in it's entirety, blogs, reviews, in game chat, fan sites, etc.

 

When the majority of folks are falling in line, saying the same things, that should not be ignored. The original dev staff made that mistake at their own peril.

 

 

I'm going to go ahead and bring in another Bioware forums, game, and poll as an example.

 

DA3 forums had a poll(player made) that indicated that roughly 50% of the people who took the poll viewed the inclusion of other races as make or break for whether they'd buy they game. Bioware's internal metrics however(per dev statement, I believe it was Gaider who brought the number up) showed that over 90% of people who bought and played Dragon Age Origins never played any race besides human.

 

 

The bias introduced by self-selection in polls, and the bias created by the fact that the general forums population most likely does not closely emulate that population break down of players, are very real.

[EricMusco]

Well, I would say that anyone that says it is absolute undeniable proof would be making a foolish statement.

 

However, anyone that wishes to say its a good representation, though perhaps opinion, could make that observation based on other supporting evidence.

 

Mr Musco made a "exist in a vacuum" comment. To avoid taking it out of context, I will only say this...

 

This forum does not exist in a vacuum. This forum exists in a massive swath of information that includes the internet in it's entirety, blogs, reviews, in game chat, fan sites, etc.

 

When the majority of folks are falling in line, saying the same things, that should not be ignored. The original dev staff made that mistake at their own peril.

 

I agree with you entirely! General Discussion and this forums can certainly be a great representation of the playerbase at large, and its opinions. I don't want you to get the idea that I was saying otherwise. My reasoning is specifically tied to polls. Again, not that polls are bad, just that in many cases players can misunderstand poll results as "undeniable proof" of a point. It is when you can put a tangible number behind an opinion that things get a bit tricky and that is where the "in a vacuum" comment comes in. (like the Warzone type example I made)

 

-eric

Edited November 7, 2013 by EricMusco

[Andryah]

I'm going to go ahead and bring in another Bioware forums, game, and poll as an example.

 

DA3 forums had a poll(player made) that indicated that roughly 50% of the people who took the poll viewed the inclusion of other races as make or break for whether they'd buy they game. Bioware's internal metrics however(per dev statement, I believe it was Gaider who brought the number up) showed that over 90% of people who bought and played Dragon Age Origins never played any race besides human.

 

 

The bias introduced by self-selection in polls, and the bias created by the fact that the general forums population most likely does not closely emulate that population break down of players, are very real.

 

I agree that you do not make product decisions based on informal polls of any kind. You use the poll results as a marker and then you go into your telemetry and test the data in the context of the marker.

 

There is so much telemetry available to them..the challenge is more about applying smart analytics against the data to harvest high value conclusions. So polling data can be an excellent marker to evaluate against.

 

Eric is doing what he is supposed to do in this thread -----> remind players that player feedback (polls or otherwise) are just one among many variables use to decide what they work on and how they approach it. As a forum.. we need to be constantly reminded of this since some get it and some do not. And I suspect this is why he does not do polls with us.. as it will get distorted by some as a commitment to apply the poll results in the absence of full and due diligence with all the data they have available to them.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Andryah

[Laurreth]

This forum does not exist in a vacuum. This forum exists in a massive swath of information that includes the internet in it's entirety, blogs, reviews, in game chat, fan sites, etc.

 

The forum exists in a very small subset though. It only reaches very, very few people who actually can stand the vitriol, permanent hating and flaming and general cesspit with rare gems in it. As such, I'd hardly call it in any way representative for the playerbase at large.

 

If Bioware wanted to ask explicit questions, then IMO the only somewhat representative way to do so would be in-client surveys.

[weejohnathon]

I may sound a little defeated here but this poll is just showing what many many threads have stated the desire for more class story which was what was promised with this mmo. If I was asked to give one unique thing about this game is that you feel like your character is important and truly unique through your choices. However from what Eric has said and I may be taking this wrong is that they will still see this as a small percent just like all the other threads created which makes me feel like this poll is a waste of time as their reasoning for not doing more class story content is that they don't feel the time needed for the content is worth the investment.

[Rafaman]

Fair enough, Eric et. al. Polls like this can be misconstrued. Polls like this can be flawed in execution. However, the data points gathered have value. I think Artemis has it right.

 

I personally would like to see more polls as a method of garnering discussion and gathering data. The caveat would be that the polls do not singularly set criteria or the agenda for BW and future development. But it can certainly provide insights into what subs here are thinking at a particular moment in time.

 

In terms of discussion, this thread has been more fruitful than most even if posters didn't agree with the poll or polling method. And the outcome while not surprising gives us, the forums, topics to delve into. ie: What, does "Planets" mean; what is in the "Other" catagory, etc. etc.

 

I say we keep this type of thing going.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Rafaman

[DOHboy]

Fair enough, Eric et. al. Polls like this can be misconstrued. Polls like this can be flawed in execution. However, the data points gathered have value. I think Artemis has it right.

 

I personally would like to see more polls as a method of garnering discussion and gathering data. The caveat would be that the polls do not singularly set criteria or the agenda for BW and future development. But it can certainly provide insights into what subs here are thinking at a particular moment in time.

 

In terms of discussion, this thread has been more fruitful than most even if posters didn't agree with the poll or polling method. And the outcome while not surprising gives us, the forums, topics to delve into. ie: What, does "Planets" mean; what is in the "Other" catagory, etc. etc.

 

I say we keep this type of thing going.

 

I may sound a little defeated here but this poll is just showing what many many threads have stated the desire for more class story which was what was promised with this mmo. If I was asked to give one unique thing about this game is that you feel like your character is important and truly unique through your choices. However from what Eric has said and I may be taking this wrong is that they will still see this as a small percent just like all the other threads created which makes me feel like this poll is a waste of time as their reasoning for not doing more class story content is that they don't feel the time needed for the content is worth the investment.

 

here in lies what others have said, and Eric (as i see it) implied. The poll shows nothing more than what 350 people, who happen to visit the forums and bothered to vote, feel. It in no way speaks for the "entire community". If they could ensure that the community on the forums could constitute a statistically viable sample size (1% of the community equally represented) which is difficult at best. Additionally anything that this poll would arrive at has no power other than "hey some people would like this". The devs see this for what it is, a small sample of people on the forums and what they feel is important. However, taking into account all the factors the poll is a sample point at best. As Eric has stated, people WILL misinterpret the poll results. Not adhering to the poll can be seen as "ignoring the community" and vice verse where if the poll actually predicts the devs next action, that all future polls also then should be followed least they be "ignoring the community".

 

What Eric simply stated the inherit problems with unscientific polls. He did not say that due to small sample size the results are ignored and thus will never come to pass. He in fact said nothing of the results, only that the results hold no real value outside of their context as a random poll of a small sample of people who happen to visit the forums.

 

He could have said simply "thank you for your input and consideration, we will take these under advisement but make no statement on future content. We respect our community and try to take as much feedback as we can into account when making decisions."

 

At best an in game vote of all players on a particular topic wold be about the only way to create a true feedback on what player base wants.

[chuixupu]

I think one of the more interesting statistics to come out of this poll is roughly how many people actively participate in the General Discussion forum.

[Technohic]

I agree with you entirely! General Discussion and this forums can certainly be a great representation of the playerbase at large, and its opinions. I don't want you to get the idea that I was saying otherwise. My reasoning is specifically tied to polls. Again, not that polls are bad, just that in many cases players can misunderstand poll results as "undeniable proof" of a point. It is when you can put a tangible number behind an opinion that things get a bit tricky and that is where the "in a vacuum" comment comes in. (like the Warzone type example I made)

 

-eric

 

While we are on the subject of future content, things feel kind of quiet at the moment. May be just a perception problem but just curious on if we will be hearing anything future content related. Seems like its been a couple weeks since the blog entry of "Galactic Starfighter Development, Introduction: Part I" and I'm kind of expecting a part 2 with just the having part 1 in the first title.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Technohic

[warstory]

I will admit I have absolutely zero interest In pve unless it is class story. Best thing about this game period.

[Jedi_Thran_Kuro]

I'd like to see an extension of the class story. But what I'd most like to see are:

 

1. customizable personal space - our ships would be one way of doing this. But think SWG housing.

2. minigames. We have all these damned casinos. What for? Give us Pazaak! Give us dejarik!

 

It's a bit dull when there's really nothing at all to do but combat.