Bioware AUSTIN has some PR issues right now.

[Palar]

Only if you also like avocado.

 

There are people who don't?

 

 

...Weirdos.

[LordArtemis]

You can't balance classes for the sake of Arena at the expense of the rest of the game. Other games have done so with toxic results....creating a never ending balance crusade.

 

In the best world any changes for the sake of Arena performance would remain inside Arena. At the very least any changes proposed should be viewed across the ENTIRE GAME, not just Arena or PVP performance.

[Serpieri]

You can't balance classes for the sake of Arena at the expense of the rest of the game. Other games have done so with toxic results....creating a never ending balance crusade.

 

In the best world any changes for the sake of Arena performance would remain inside Arena. At the very least any changes proposed should be viewed across the ENTIRE GAME, not just Arena or PVP performance.

 

This game isn't balanced for PVE. To many classes/specs are under performing.

[Yndras]

Newsflash : SWTOR isn't entirely about PvP ... Read this if you don't believe me : http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6701195&postcount=666

 

Yes it is.

[Yndras]

Hey dscount,

 

I can completely appreciate the request, it is just not something that we would do. Internally, it isn't like we have a meeting once a week to discuss things like this where I can come out of the meeting and provide an update. Part of it is that even if changes were to come for Sorcerers/Sages, they would not be coming for some time. As we have stated we are not really planning any big balance changes coming in to 2.4.

 

What I can say is that I will provide you all with updates as I have them. It just wouldn't be logical that every week I came on the forums and said "still no updates, check back next week!" I know it can be hard sometimes but I assure you that things like this don't fall off my radar and I am always eager to deliver you all updates as I have them.

 

As an example, I can assure you Assassins and Shadows have not been forgotten, I just don't have any new updates. We are still actively having discussions about all classes and their balance but I wont pass that on until we have things locked down and more concrete.

 

-eric

 

I would class the vangaurd/commando changes as fairly significant changes. What is the difference here?

[Tremulant]

You can't balance classes for the sake of Arena at the expense of the rest of the game. Other games have done so with toxic results....creating a never ending balance crusade.

 

In the best world any changes for the sake of Arena performance would remain inside Arena. At the very least any changes proposed should be viewed across the ENTIRE GAME, not just Arena or PVP performance.

 

What other games? Surely you're not talking about WoW. The game where you can raid or play arena at a high level as any class. Yes Blizzard underestimated the dev time it would take to balance the game around arena and raiding, but arena is a HUGE reason why even today it is still the top MMO. Blizzard plays and cares about their game. Bioware Mythic EA does not. Open you eyes man, you are playing an abandoned game.

[wollegol]

Hey dscount,

 

I can completely appreciate the request, it is just not something that we would do. Internally, it isn't like we have a meeting once a week to discuss things like this where I can come out of the meeting and provide an update. Part of it is that even if changes were to come for Sorcerers/Sages, they would not be coming for some time. As we have stated we are not really planning any big balance changes coming in to 2.4.

What I can say is that I will provide you all with updates as I have them. It just wouldn't be logical that every week I came on the forums and said "still no updates, check back next week!" I know it can be hard sometimes but I assure you that things like this don't fall off my radar and I am always eager to deliver you all updates as I have them.

 

As an example, I can assure you Assassins and Shadows have not been forgotten, I just don't have any new updates. We are still actively having discussions about all classes and their balance but I wont pass that on until we have things locked down and more concrete.

 

-eric

 

Why are you not planning this, can we get your thoughts around this? Since PVP has been unbalanced since the release of SWTOR, why should we paying customers have to wait many more months for this? The PVP community in this game is big, just look at how many threads that are started here on the forums. The pvp section has 6x the the threads of flashpoints and operations and the largest section, general discussion, only has twice the threads.

 

So, Eric, I am challenging you. Tell me why I, as a PVP:er by heart, should pay you for another 2-4 months before you do something that should have been done last year. And I don't want the answer that WZ will be under F2P in 2.4 because I don't want to play with the restrictions that come with it.

[HoboWithAStick]

I am saying a weekly update is just not something we would likely do. The reason isn't that I am trying to hide anything, it is just that I simply wouldn't actually have an update every week. If I had an update every week on a specific topic (such as Sorc/Sage changes) I would absolutely give them to you

 

I guess in short I am saying I can't really aim to give a weekly update (because there isn't likely to be anything to update about) but like anything else, I will be sure to update you as early and often as I can.

 

-eric

 

PS - I will pass on your feedback about trying to supply more supportive data in our answers.

 

 

 

Would it be possible for classes like assassins to be looked at more then once a year Eric? They are under performing in both pvp and pve and every spec that they have. Regardless of what your data shows if you listen to player feedback and look at sites like torparse you will see that they are greatly behind. As it stands dps sins are not welcome into nm raiding and in some cases even hm raiding, Sin tanks stand a better chance however they can die in a matter of seconds from unshielded attacks. Please stop ignoring certain classes, the 300 reply post in pts should be evidence enough this needs to be looked into.

[BrianDavion]

This game isn't balanced for PVE. To many classes/specs are under performing.

 

PVE can proably blame PVP for that. just as PVP can proably blame PVE for many of their problems, BW has to balance around each to ensure everyone feels capable.

 

granted even there they don't do that great a job. as Focus Guardians are awesome, however vigilance (which is much better for PVE due to it's not being over reliant on sweep) while totally viable are a bit behind sentinals in DPS output.

[WarbNull]

I think you all should just dump the Class Rep idea and just start answering more questions that the community ask.

That is the job of the rep. to be their forum's secretary and "communicate" to the devs what the community wants to ask. I don't suppose you expect them (the devs) to reply to every single question every single person asks in the forums?

What you quoted from my posting and what you said makes no sense. Especially sense you only quoted the first line of the posting. Basically a confusing way to quote and reply. You start off by saying "that is the job of the Rep" but the quote of what I said is basically suggesting the Devs just answer more questions that the community has already asked. So it is like you are saying that the Class Rep are supposed to answer the questions and not ask them. Yet you then explain the Class Rep Job which is communicating the questions to the devs. A bit out of place if you ask me.

 

By the way. We all know that the Class Reps are supposed to communicate to the devs. They are limited to three questions. One on PVP, one on PVE , and one on equal representation.

 

The problem with the Class Rep Program is that it is only what the Class Rep at the time thinks should be asked based on what they gather from the community. How are we to be certain that they will even ask what the majority of their section of the community will want asked? How do we even know that they will even be active enough to do the job in the first place? Also there is a lot more questions than what they are limiting with this Class Rep Program. So far the answers we got have not been to impressive. There is still a lot of un-answered questions and concerns about the game. A lot of which are pretty old and important.

 

What we need is more communication plain and simple. It is not hard to read through the forums and just answer questions. It does not take long to read through the forums. It does not take long to identify questions, and ones of importance. The issue is that they (BioWare and or EA) are just ignoring it and or not even taking the time to reply. So they toss our a Class rep Program and we are to think that it will improve things. Yet how well has it worked so far for its first time? Who here is really impressed with it? Do you actually think it will improve things? The best way to improve things is to just read the forums and answer the questions when they come up. Plain and simple. If they can not do that then there is something seriously wrong.

 

Oh and by the way:

No I do not expect them to answer every single question on the forum. That would be stupid.

I do however expect them to answer questions though, and a lot more often than just a few selective ones per month if that. There is no guarantee that they will even answer all the questions from the Class Reps. If you look at there track record for actually answering question in these forums or just plain commenting on the forums you will see that it is hardly anything at all. Even with this new Class Rep program they just started. They need to communicate a lot more than what they have been doing. They are to hush hush.

[Ycoga]

I would class the vangaurd/commando changes as fairly significant changes. What is the difference here?

 

This question deserves an answer, Eric.

[LordArtemis]

What other games? Surely you're not talking about WoW. The game where you can raid or play arena at a high level as any class. Yes Blizzard underestimated the dev time it would take to balance the game around arena and raiding, but arena is a HUGE reason why even today it is still the top MMO. Blizzard plays and cares about their game. Bioware Mythic EA does not. Open you eyes man, you are playing an abandoned game.

 

http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/

[HoboWithAStick]

http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/

 

So basically Arenas only work when the classes are made around and and are constantly being updated. We are so screwed. With the combat team in this game taking 4 months just to change one class can we only expect class balance once every 4 months and for one class at a time? I wonder if it will be snipers or maruaders who get the next buff

[Kontraz]

This question deserves an answer, Eric.

 

I believe what he meant was that minor tweaks and changes across the board for all classes (ie - balancing) is something they are going to wait for until arenas have been out for a while. The PT/VG changes were close to a class overhaul that has been needed for some time (not saying other classes don't need it, nor that balancing isn't important either)

[SlimsPicken]

I would class the vangaurd/commando changes as fairly significant changes. What is the difference here?

 

perception.

[Kontraz]

perception.

 

where is the blasted "like" button?!?

[Serpieri]

http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/

 

And Bioware is about to repeat that mistake.

[BaronV]

I am not going to play the semantics game with you Andryah.

 

Your posts are as inherently subjective, biased, and rationalized as those you classify as complaints and your continued desire to serve as the General Forum's resident Defender of the Faith, while entertaining as a counterpoint to the more dedicated trolls, provides you in fact with no actual degree of rhetorical authority greater than the one being wielded by Ansalem.

 

The difference of course is that, because you theoretically underpin your statements with the concept that you are somehow "objective," the substantive result is that you are displaying an interesting level of hypocrisy.

 

Why don't you and Ansalem take your party to the PMs where it belongs and clear up this thread for something more topical than his personal offense at the replies and your offense to his feeling offended.

 

Quite possibly the best post ever made on SWTOR forums

[hadoken]

And Bioware is about to repeat that mistake.

 

This isn't the first wheel they're reinventing

[LordArtemis]

So basically Arenas only work when the classes are made around and and are constantly being updated. We are so screwed. With the combat team in this game taking 4 months just to change one class can we only expect class balance once every 4 months and for one class at a time? I wonder if it will be snipers or maruaders who get the next buff

 

Well, the problem there was that Arena became the focus for balance for the entire game, in a nutshell. And a pattern emerged.

 

As they attempted a balance pass for Arena, a problem was discovered for raiding, so another change was made shortly thereafter, after which a problem was discovered in general world PVE, and the changes there created a problem in Arena...and so on and so forth.

 

This started a never ending balance cycle that caused classes to face minor changes every few weeks or so, major changes every six. There were people that had taken a break for only 4 weeks and had to completely relearn how to play their class at max level. It was ridiculous IMO.

 

Instead of looking at balance problems over the entire game, and weighing the effect constant changes like this might have on the populace the just plowed forward. In the end it almost completely destroyed investment in the game.

 

Arena tends to amplify imbalance problems that are barely noticeable elsewhere in the game. PVP can do this to PVE and visa versa as well. There are now four aspects of the game that can trigger balance changes instead of three...Arena, Warzone, Flashpoint, World PVE. Focusing on any one of them would probably cause detriment to the other three, and begin a balance process that would never end.

 

This is what they have to avoid IMO. The effect is far more destructive on the game than those dissatisfied with minor balance issues.

[CosmicKat]

Well, the problem there was that Arena became the focus for balance for the entire game, in a nutshell. And a pattern emerged.

 

As they attempted a balance pass for Arena, a problem was discovered for raiding, so another change was made shortly thereafter, after which a problem was discovered in general world PVE, and the changes there created a problem in Arena...and so on and so forth.

 

This started a never ending balance cycle that caused classes to face minor changes every few weeks or so, major changes every six. There were people that had taken a break for only 4 weeks and had to completely relearn how to play their class at max level. It was ridiculous IMO.

 

Instead of looking at balance problems over the entire game, and weighing the effect constant changes like this might have on the populace the just plowed forward. In the end it almost completely destroyed investment in the game.

 

Arena tends to amplify imbalance problems that are barely noticeable elsewhere in the game. PVP can do this to PVE and visa versa as well. There are now four aspects of the game that can trigger balance changes instead of three...Arena, Warzone, Flashpoint, World PVE. Focusing on any one of them would probably cause detriment to the other three, and begin a balance process that would never end.

 

This is what they have to avoid IMO. The effect is far more destructive on the game than those dissatisfied with minor balance issues.

 

Well put.

 

PvE and PvP must be treated as entirely separate things with entirely different rules or they both end up sucking.

[Andryah]

Instead of looking at balance problems over the entire game, and weighing the effect constant changes like this might have on the populace the just plowed forward. In the end it almost completely destroyed investment in the game.

 

I agree that arenas aggravate this. It's a minor variation on balancing for single player duels IMO.. because it's small team play. If Bioware repeats the mistakes of it's predecessors on this.. things are just going to get worse in terms of player anger and raging in the forums.

 

But there is larger problem within the player base -----> A majority of forum posters believe balance should be performed on the basis of THEIR preferred play content.. and to hell with every other aspect of play content. Further.. many also feel that their class deserves special attention and balance and to hell with every other class. And I am in no way saying there are not balance issues on classes to be addressed (so put the knives away folks)... rather I am saying that most discussions that revolve around any kind of class balance discussion.. are heavily biased.. and very often nothing more then a series of "me first, me most important" demands.

 

Class balance in MMOs is always a developer target and I have yet to see any developer get even close to class balance such that players are not pissed off about it in one way or another. They all take a lot of rage from players about it. It's a favorate whipping boy of those that are generally unhappy and negative about whatever MMO the discussion centers around. it also puts PvP and PvE fans in conflict with one another A LOT.. and it's mostly players at fault here.. because they want/demand/expect perfection in class balance in an MMO.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Andryah

[TUXs]

This started a never ending balance cycle that caused classes to face minor changes every few weeks or so, major changes every six. There were people that had taken a break for only 4 weeks and had to completely relearn how to play their class at max level. It was ridiculous IMO.

 

I'm not suggesting I want major changes every 6 weeks, but I'll be honest, I'd LOVE minor tweaks to balance classes every few weeks...right now we go 6-months to a year between 'tweaks'.

[ImpactHound]

And Bioware is about to repeat that mistake.

 

And they had 4 years to read that article.

[chuixupu]

You never saw WoW remove arenas, though. And they never will, because they're a very popular part of the game.