Dual-Spec: The Necessary (VERY Necessary) Evil

[kclemens]

I agree that dual specs should be available.

[Truga]

I respectfully disagree.

 

I also think we need a poll on this!

[DesleDarksyde]

As long as the dual spec is within the advance class, I don't see a problem with it. Would be nice to be fully efficient in both PvE and PvP with my guardian.

 

Same feeling here.

I am a staunch Anti-AC-change or anything. Your AC is cast in stone.

 

But to flick around between different specs inside your AC, I have no problem with.

 

FWIW, a couple of months ago the devs have said that dual-speccing will be coming. They said it was too late for a launch implementation, but it would come soon after launch.

[DesleDarksyde]

Or rather...

To make sure we don't rush into something that could have negative consequences later I'd suggest that for a start, they should just cap respec cost to 5000c.

 

If that goes well, with no ill side effects, we can go for a free, on the fly pre-defined dual spec, or tri-spec.

Edited December 22, 2011 by DesleDarksyde

[Varghjerta]

Same feeling here.

I am a staunch Anti-AC-change or anything. Your AC is cast in stone.

 

But to flick around between different specs inside your AC, I have no problem with.

 

FWIW, a couple of months ago the devs have said that dual-speccing will be coming. They said it was too late for a launch implementation, but it would come soon after launch.

 

But we already have that in the game called respecc but let me guess you want it for free?

[Kiyasu]

Bioware says their adding it regardless.

[Gestas]

I want to be able to specialize in certain areas, gaining pros and cons, and then when my character faces a situation in which the cons of my particular spec are detrimental, I want to be able to spec out instantly.

[PinnyFox]

Not necessary at all.

 

If you're specced as DPS, you want to be DPS, and your guild is short on healers, RECRUIT PEOPLE! Stop being reclusive shut-ins who only want to play with the same 4 people all the time! You need healers? Recruit healers! Need a tank? Recruit a tank!

 

It's retarded to think that people NEED to be able to have two specs just so people don't have to bother playing with other people. "I can be DPS OR a healer, depending on what we need! We don't need any more DPS or healers cause I can do both!" is NOT a mentality that should be forming.

[Zyillo]

This is something that will make it into the game - no question about if, just a matter of when.

[Axxtasy]

It is not outrageous to think there's nothing wrong with the idea that people can build a character a certain way without some crutch to change their minds on a whim. It's not outrageous to think replaying to build a new character is a viable option. You're welcome to disagree with me, but we can have alts for a reason. If I were to overreact as much as you just did, I could say it's outrageous to want to build a character that can fulfill the functions of two other players. I'm apparently not nearly as into overblown drama as you are, though, so I won't.

 

And it's a game. It's not "100 hours of your life," like someone's sitting there forcing you to do something. It's a game. You're making a far bigger deal out of those 100 hours than they deserve.

 

 

 

So don't. Play your character the way you built it.

 

 

 

I won't argue that dual speccing isn't a convenience feature, but that's all it is. It's nowhere near, as the OP claims, a necessity.

 

 

 

As opposed to your "artificial thought" they should not? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but if it's "my opinion is more important than yours," I humbly disagree.

 

Look, I get that you want this. That doesn't mean people don't have perfectly valid reasons for not wanting it. My biggest? I think it caters to the lazy, who want everything right now. I don't happen to think that's a good part of the population to start kissing up to.

 

 

Can you back out of your own ankle deep rhetoric for one second and answer the question you have glossed over in your zeal to be "right"?

 

How in the hell can you advocate and champion a DPS Sith Marauder having to play through the same storyline 2 times so that he can have 2 separate toons for PvP/PvE? We are talking about the same AC, only different point allocation for CC/DPS/Escape purposes? All for what? Some peoples "immersion"? Christ that is the most inane and circular argument I have ever heard and I truly think at this point you are just being deliberately obtuse for the sake of being "right" in an internet argument.

 

There is NO logical reason to force a player to level the same character twice so that they can enjoy both aspects of the game. And before you say "You can already do that by respeccing", you are only partially correct, as the cost quickly becomes exorbitant and unattainable for the average player, hence why it was implemented in WoW to begin with.

[Axxtasy]

Not necessary at all.

 

If you're specced as DPS, you want to be DPS, and your guild is short on healers, RECRUIT PEOPLE! Stop being reclusive shut-ins who only want to play with the same 4 people all the time! You need healers? Recruit healers! Need a tank? Recruit a tank!

 

It's retarded to think that people NEED to be able to have two specs just so people don't have to bother playing with other people. "I can be DPS OR a healer, depending on what we need! We don't need any more DPS or healers cause I can do both!" is NOT a mentality that should be forming.

 

People like you need to stop reading what you want to read, and start paying attention to the rest. Most of the posters in this thread are not asking to change AC's, only allowing a PvP/PvE spec without an insanely high cost.

 

I would love to see how many of these posters are:

 

1. Not PvPers

2. Not progression raiders

 

Because the whole thing stinks of "I don't like it, so it shouldn't be in here!" Probably because you will never use it anyway since you don't raid end game and PvP in the same week.

[Bigbazz]

I would like dual spec, along with a massive list of other things this game lacks compared to other MMO's.

[Bating]

I've been gaming for decades, and I've never agreed that dual-specs are necessary.

 

In the end, what every demand for them comes down to is "I want my ONE character to be able to fill MORE THAN ONE role."

 

You simply need to create more than one character. What every one of these requests is asking for is the need to not have to create and level a second character, which I do not agree is something the game should provide.

 

At the very least, dual-spec is most certainly not necessary, just a convenient time-saver.

 

I will fill multiple roles anyway, as you stated last, the only difference is I will have to move to a respecc trainer.

 

Basically how i read all you guys who do not want people to have a dual spec is "we want you guys who want diversity to pay a lot, and waste a lot of time (fixing new UI).

[Bating]

People like you need to stop reading what you want to read, and start paying attention to the rest. Most of the posters in this thread are not asking to change AC's, only allowing a PvP/PvE spec without an insanely high cost.

 

I would love to see how many of these posters are:

 

1. Not PvPers

2. Not progression raiders

 

Because the whole thing stinks of "I don't like it, so it shouldn't be in here!" Probably because you will never use it anyway since you don't raid end game and PvP in the same week.

 

100% true

[Yaksha]

MMO discussions like this amuse me.

 

When a large group of people want something - i.e. it will increase enjoyment for many players, how is "we don't need this" or "This is not that useful" even an argument.

 

Not every player is going to use every feature implemented... obviously.

 

What are the arguments *against* dual spec within a AC. Like what problems does it actually cause? I don't see any except that respec becomes less useful = one less money sink in the game. But if that has any economic impact, I'm sure it can be adjusted fairly easily.

 

There is also your usual concern with letting people do more stuff more easily. "Oh, but if a dps person dual specs into a healer now, would they know how to play a healer? I don't want high level noob healers running around". This is more of an argument used in PL debates. But anyhow if people could dual spec from lv10, you'd be fine learning both your builds.

 

Lastly, as for any new feature we consider how difficult it is to implement it. We obviously don't want devs spending too much resources on features that are not that shiny. Given that respec is already in the game, all the tools in the game to adjust for a player character suddenly changing all their skills is there already. All we need to do is take respec, make it free and instant and unlimited and you have dual class. Even if you could only say, switch specs at a quick travel point (i.e. you can't do it any where or at any time), that would probably be acceptable for most people.

[Caelrie]

Dual specs are confirmed as coming. What's the point in arguing about whether they're "needed" or not?

[Kantor_omicron]

Dual specs are confirmed as coming. What's the point in arguing about whether they're "needed" or not?

 

Would you be so kind to link-prove that?

[OrionBurger]

Not necessary at all.

 

If you're specced as DPS, you want to be DPS, and your guild is short on healers, RECRUIT PEOPLE! Stop being reclusive shut-ins who only want to play with the same 4 people all the time! You need healers? Recruit healers! Need a tank? Recruit a tank!

 

It's retarded to think that people NEED to be able to have two specs just so people don't have to bother playing with other people. "I can be DPS OR a healer, depending on what we need! We don't need any more DPS or healers cause I can do both!" is NOT a mentality that should be forming.

 

 

This just doesn't make any sense. You are still going to be playing with the same number of people... dual spec isn't going to allow someone to do the job of two people.

 

I cannot see a single coherent argument against dual speccing.

[Bejita]

Me and many others would gladly fix the healing shortage BUT im not going to spend massive amounts of credits everytime i want to switch to healing from a DPS role, and with dps being far and away more powerfull in questing its obvious a dual specing feature is a must have

 

Note that the content is simple untill heroics, ive main healed with only 5 points in my healing tree all the way up to 30, but its starting to taper off and become more difficult, this is why at the beginning healers were everywhere but now they are no where to be seen

[Axxtasy]

Would you be so kind to link-prove that?

 

I believe it has been linked twice in this thread alone.

[RuneColnor]

I can''t speak for anyone else, but my reason for being against dual-specing has always been for diversity.

 

Often times I see the argument made that people want/need dual-spec in order to have one optimized spec for PvP and another for PvE. This is moot, imo, because the only reason one would need an optimized spec for PvP/PvE is if everyone else had an optimized spec, and having an optimized spec for both without dual-spec would be prohibitively expensive. Therefore, one could assume that while some people would find the money (or simply would never change) to have dedicated optimal specs, the vast majority of people would come up with hybrid builds to compliment their preferred mix of play.

 

I''m in favor of such a system because it means fewer cookie-cutter builds. Yes, eventually someone will figure out the "best" build for every class and everyone will basically have to abide by that build or "suck". What people fail to realize is that performance level is relative, and if you don''t have rampant optimization then you don''t need to optimize in order to play effectively.

 

Its the same reason I argue against DPS Meter/Gear Score/Dual-Spec/etc.

 

I blame WoW. It perpetuated the idea of "min-maxing" as an approved, and even encouraged, form of gaming. Where as, in my experience, most gamers have spent their gaming careers trying to weed "min-maxers" from their gaming groups.

[Axxtasy]

While I appreciate hearing a rational argument, I still have to disagree.

 

What happens in a scenario without dual specs is not less min-maxing. You will still have optimized raid builds and optimized PvP builds. This does not eliminate a cookie cutter build. All it does is force more griding for the players that have time, or a pigeon-holing of characters, ie: the top raiding guilds will be made up of players with optimal PvE builds, same with PvP, with players that will not be able to compete in the other without spending inordinate amounts of cash, or leveling 2 toons.

 

Again, this does nothing except drive off players to other games. You can blame wow for whatever you want, but the reality is min-maxing has been around since tabletop games, log parsing (meters) since EQ, and PvP/PvE specs since the beginning of gaming. The only thing that has changed is that the games help cater to this with dual spec now, after all the complaining about having to pay extreme respec prices.

[RuneColnor]

While I appreciate hearing a rational argument, I still have to disagree.

 

What happens in a scenario without dual specs is not less min-maxing. You will still have optimized raid builds and optimized PvP builds. This does not eliminate a cookie cutter build. All it does is force more griding for the players that have time, or a pigeon-holing of characters, ie: the top raiding guilds will be made up of players with optimal PvE builds, same with PvP, with players that will not be able to compete in the other without spending inordinate amounts of cash, or leveling 2 toons.

 

Again, this does nothing except drive off players to other games. You can blame wow for whatever you want, but the reality is min-maxing has been around since tabletop games, log parsing (meters) since EQ, and PvP/PvE specs since the beginning of gaming. The only thing that has changed is that the games help cater to this with dual spec now, after all the complaining about having to pay extreme respec prices.

 

I agree to all your points, but offer this:

 

Let me begin at the end by saying that min-maxing is, in fact, a product originally of tabletop gaming. In my opinion, min-maxing is the bane of tabletop gaming and is one of the reasons why I refuse to play several systems (most notably 4e). I''ve spent my entire tabletop gaming career trying to find people who won''t min-max because it destroys the fun for me. The same is true in online gaming - min-maxers destroy the fun for me.

 

I agree that removing dual-spec will not stop people who want to min-max, which is why it won''t slow down "hardcore" people, but it will stop the spread of the play style. A minority of players min-maxing is manageable, I can simply not play with them, but when the majority (overwhelming) of players adopt this play style (I believe because it is convenient) it ruins the game for me.

 

Perhaps I am in the minority in this opinion (not liking min-maxers), so perhaps it is a better business option to ignore me and appease others - and I can accept that - but I can''t stop arguing my point because it is what I believe is correct and fun.

 

"Optimized" builds will always exist, all I want is to not cater towards them or rather, not cater towards them being widespread and "cookie-cutter".

[choboon]

Every build is self sufficient in pve if it is in pvp due to companions.

At least for solo content.

Healers may not level as fast as damage classes with a tank companion but if that really bothers you that much, dont play a healer.

 

There are a few points why i dislike dual spec, i posted them in a different thread on the first page that covers the same topic.

[Axxtasy]

I agree to all your points, but offer this:

 

Let me begin at the end by saying that min-maxing is, in fact, a product originally of tabletop gaming. In my opinion, min-maxing is the bane of tabletop gaming and is one of the reasons why I refuse to play several systems (most notably 4e). I''ve spent my entire tabletop gaming career trying to find people who won''t min-max because it destroys the fun for me. The same is true in online gaming - min-maxers destroy the fun for me.

 

I agree that removing dual-spec will not stop people who want to min-max, which is why it won''t slow down "hardcore" people, but it will stop the spread of the play style. A minority of players min-maxing is manageable, I can simply not play with them, but when the majority (overwhelming) of players adopt this play style (I believe because it is convenient) it ruins the game for me.

 

Perhaps I am in the minority in this opinion (not liking min-maxers), so perhaps it is a better business option to ignore me and appease others - and I can accept that - but I can''t stop arguing my point because it is what I believe is correct and fun.

 

"Optimized" builds will always exist, all I want is to not cater towards them or rather, not cater towards them being widespread and "cookie-cutter".

 

Great post. As a min-maxxer I don't see eye to eye with you, but I really appreciate hearing a valid argument from someone who makes sense and isn't just frothing at the mouth. This is the first time I have heard an actual reason for being anti-dual spec, and while I disagree that it is important enough to limit the majorities gaming style over, I cannot honestly say that I think you are wrong. Well said.