Please Remove Tank, DPS and Heal

[Blackavaar]

Ask anyone...ANYONE...and they will tell you...they just want to Tank n Spank and get hell outta there and collect the commendations. In and Out..simple..fast and done

 

Nobody asked me and I do not agree with that assertion. I like helping players new to their roles learn how to properly work with them. I enjoy taking my time and watching all of the cut scenes and enjoying the story. Even after I've seen it several times I still find it enjoyable, plus it gives me time to chat with other players who might need a few tips. Really, the Holy Trinity (Tank, Heal, DPS) is not obsolete. It works and people enjoy it.

 

Now there are games out there that don't use the Trinity (Champions Online, Secret World) but because of that the combat can sometimes be confusing and grabtastic. Everyone can heal but no one is really good at it. Everyone can tank but nobody is The Tank. And everyone can DPS but sometimes the fights still take forever and it really feels more like if you just mash your attacks enough times you will win no matter what. There is no challenge and therefor the game is not fun.

 

DO NOT ASK THEM TO DO THAT TO THIS GAME!

 

Thank you.

 

Edited January 30, 2013 by Blackavaar

[Manifoldgodhead]

You have little concept of game theory. Your just talking about adding GW2 ideas which failed conceptually as well. You have to extrapolate the three role idea backwards to find that it is in fact an evolution of the basic concept of "bang on the enemy".

 

The first evolution was between front row and back row. Front row classes/characters/players started giving up damage for defense since they are in the front lines, while back rows started giving up defense for damage.

 

Next two roles actually split into 4 not 3 as is commonly mistaken. Some front rows started giving up even more damage in an attempt to pull or peel enemies off the weaker back rows. These were your tanks. This allowed other front rows to shift somewhat back to damage.

 

However, when the damage was split amongst all the front rows there was less need for restoration. Now that one player is attempting to generate threat/tank/distract all the enemies at once. Some back rows started shifting from damage to healing. You see healers are actually a resultant role from the front rows shifting most/all damage to a single or smaller group of players/characters/classes.

 

You see you have to understand how the different roles evolved from the basic "bang on the enemies in different ways" classes. Only by understanding how this evolution has occurred can you hope to predict the next evolution.

 

The problem with GW2 is they lost sight of that and tried to devolve the class role system by forcing everyone to do everything. If we really want the class system to get more interesting we need to use the concepts that have grown out of MMO gaming to further specialize the classes.

 

Games like WoW are actually doing more for this than many people think. They have developed concepts like Tank healing vs group healing. Main tanking vs off tanking. AoE damage vs single target damage. These greater specializations are built into the mechanics of high end group content. To greater and lesser degrees across the expansions.

 

Moving forward what I would like to see is further specialization that is built into the mechanics. So if you have a group of 3 dps, a tank and a healer then you can tank and spank. But if you have a CC specialist and two aoe damage specialists and two group healers then there are ways to complete content with that setup.

[AsheraII]

The problem isn't the dedicated roles. The problem is that there are so few of them.

CC isn't a dedicated role anymore.

Buffing and debuffing haven't been dedicated roles for ages either.

 

And let's take hybrids. That's an even bigger no-no these days. Tank trees hardly synergize with DPS trees, and the same applies to the healing trees: they have very little synergy with the DPS trees as well. I know, it IS hard to make a game where all kinds of hybrid specs can synergize properly without unlocking overpowered combinations, but it seems like hybrid synergies are left out almost completely because of fear for that.

 

Now some classes can switch their stance into one matching another role. But that's a rather empty ability:

Switching to DPS stance as a tank doesn't improve your DPS much, since you lack the talented abilities and bonusses that really open up your potential to DPS. You might as well stay in your tank stance for the extra survivability and so you can immediately take over incase the main tank dies.

And switching to tank stance as a DPS? Good luck with that as well.

 

Same for the healers: they can deal some respectable damage, but it's still not as much as a dedicated DPS.

While a DPS trying to heal will suffer a similar fate: it works, to a certain degree.

 

For most storymode flashpoints, this isn't an issue. A DPS who put a few spare points into the tank tree can tank most storymode flashpoints, and a healer who put a few spare points into the healing tree can heal most storymode flashpoints. But for False Emperor and upward (hardmodes, operations), that's no longer the case: you'll want to be properly specced and geared for your role, or you simply won't make it. The mechanics of the content start to require specific abilities, specific procs, specific buffs, specific shortened cooldowns to keep up the pace.

 

So say goodbye to the funspecs at lvl 50. Though those might still work in PvP, where the rules are different and the enemies' expectations of your spec and style matter more than what your spec and style actually is.

[FreePrometheus]

I'm not into PVP much at all. So generally these roles arent much of a consideration for me. However, i can see the need for them. They give, in theory, a clear idea of what you should be doing in a fight. They allow people to take on the role. Its also stops people complaining about never being able to do the other guys job in a battle. If you are a healer, you heal and help when necesary. And so on... They are not old, they are tried and trusted methods of giving people a purpose in a battle. If you just have everyone pilling in you are just hack and slashing and hoping for the best. There is no tactics.

 

Tank, DPS, Healers. Even as a roleplayer who doesnt enjoy PVP i can see why they still function.

[Klarick]

Guild Wars 2 proved that an MMO without dedicated roles, such as in the trinity system, is soleless, bland, dull, and just plain boring. Roles of Tank, Heal, and baddies (DPS) are the staple of MMO's -- and they shouldn't be messed with.

[Lt_icer]

The problem isn't the dedicated roles. The problem is that there are so few of them.

CC isn't a dedicated role anymore.

Buffing and debuffing haven't been dedicated roles for ages either.

 

And let's take hybrids. That's an even bigger no-no these days. Tank trees hardly synergize with DPS trees, and the same applies to the healing trees: they have very little synergy with the DPS trees as well. I know, it IS hard to make a game where all kinds of hybrid specs can synergize properly without unlocking overpowered combinations, but it seems like hybrid synergies are left out almost completely because of fear for that.

 

Now some classes can switch their stance into one matching another role. But that's a rather empty ability:

Switching to DPS stance as a tank doesn't improve your DPS much, since you lack the talented abilities and bonusses that really open up your potential to DPS. You might as well stay in your tank stance for the extra survivability and so you can immediately take over incase the main tank dies.

And switching to tank stance as a DPS? Good luck with that as well.

 

Same for the healers: they can deal some respectable damage, but it's still not as much as a dedicated DPS.

While a DPS trying to heal will suffer a similar fate: it works, to a certain degree.

 

For most storymode flashpoints, this isn't an issue. A DPS who put a few spare points into the tank tree can tank most storymode flashpoints, and a healer who put a few spare points into the healing tree can heal most storymode flashpoints. But for False Emperor and upward (hardmodes, operations), that's no longer the case: you'll want to be properly specced and geared for your role, or you simply won't make it. The mechanics of the content start to require specific abilities, specific procs, specific buffs, specific shortened cooldowns to keep up the pace.

 

So say goodbye to the funspecs at lvl 50. Though those might still work in PvP, where the rules are different and the enemies' expectations of your spec and style matter more than what your spec and style actually is.

 

Not exactly. you can easily get through most HM fps without a tank or specialzed healer. Just some knowledge of the fight and gear is all you need. HM LI is probably the exception where you need the tank and healer to get through.

 

To OP

I think you dont know what everyone means, as everyone i know and majority of players will disagree with you

[paowee]

Its,..2013

 

Recommendation:

1. Give everyone a natural heal buff over time duration

2. Give everyone heavy armor

3. Give everyone an equal amount of dps

4. Get rid of need and pass and make all loot drop particular to your class and automatically go into your inventory

 

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

 

I think you should go and try out GW2.

[IBJammin]

I'm not into PVP much at all. So generally these roles arent much of a consideration for me. However, i can see the need for them. They give, in theory, a clear idea of what you should be doing in a fight. They allow people to take on the role. Its also stops people complaining about never being able to do the other guys job in a battle. If you are a healer, you heal and help when necesary. And so on... They are not old, they are tried and trusted methods of giving people a purpose in a battle. If you just have everyone pilling in you are just hack and slashing and hoping for the best. There is no tactics.

 

Tank, DPS, Healers. Even as a roleplayer who doesnt enjoy PVP i can see why they still function.

 

I would think that PvE would require more defined roles that PvP?

[paul_preib]

*wonders aloud how many "do away with the trinity" threads are started by dpsers that don't want to wait in Group Finder queues or are unhappy with the performance of a given tank/healer compared to those legitimately seeking a change in approach.

[Pantaro]

Go play GW2 if you're so interested in this. Oh wait, that game is boring as hell after a couple of weeks.

 

The trinity works fine for this game. QQ somewhere else.

damn someone beat me to it! lol

 

hey OP GW2 fanboys belong on the GW2 forums!

Edited January 30, 2013 by Pantaro

[AshlaBoga]

There's a better solution.

 

Join a guild and never partner with people who don't know what the heck they're doing again.

 

It sounds like every time you group you get clueless players. The problem isn't the game, the problem is you keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[CosmicKat]

Developers of today have neutered all classes in the name of balance. People insist on being able to solo everything, which is not possible with truly distinct classes. The result is that the differences in classes is now relatively minor compared to what it was. That is the problem, not the opposite.

 

A pure "healer" Sage in this game is far more survivable than a DPS was in EQ (without even bothering to heal), and does far more damage than a tank did in EQ.

[AsheraII]

Guild Wars 2 proved that an MMO without dedicated roles, such as in the trinity system, is soleless, bland, dull, and just plain boring. Roles of Tank, Heal, and baddies (DPS) are the staple of MMO's -- and they shouldn't be messed with.

It's pretty easy to ask in hindsight "what were they thinking, removing roles like that".

Well, their decision to take out the classroles wasn't that strange an idea. Quite a few Guild Wars developers originated from Blizzard. The REAL blizzard, pre-Activision times. Some of them even worked on Diablo II. And that's where it starts to make sense. Diablo II didn't have dedicated roles either. Variation in things like offensive and defensive stats were very minor, it was mostly the abilities that made a difference. And Diablo II was quite a success. A bigger success than its successor if you look how long it kept people playing.

 

They made a few mistakes though:

1) Diablo II wasn't an MMO. It actually wasn't even an RPG, but a Hack & Slash with gear and stats.

2) Most people actually played Diablo II on their own.

3) Unbelievable as it sounds, MMO players want to do something more than just push buttons. They want a bit of a challenge as well. The challenge of working together and keeping an eye on your groupmembers was taken out of the equation, but the void wasn't filled with another challenge. They could've compensated the loss of challenge with things like EQ2 style puzzles or something, but for some reason, they chose not to, making the initial excitement about the game very shortlived.

 

Another game decided to keep the roles, but give everybody access to them: Rift. And somehow, this too turned out to be a flawed design. It quickly became evident that some baseclasses were way better at certain roles than others, and they simply left it at that. So while it seemed a very player-friendly system, it simply didn't deliver on that promise.

 

And while disbalances will always be there, seperate classes with only few assigned roles to each, are easier to manage for the developer. Some classes are slightly better than others at certain roles, but the difference isn't big enough to deny or kick certain classes from your guild, since you know that they aren't far behind the rest anyway, and occasionally even pull ahead of the rest.

[DorkTrooper]

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

 

I enjoy tanking and healing more than just doing damage. So yeah, I disagree with your post.

 

Eliminating tanking will not get rid of any jerks. It's still possible to screw over a whole group playing as a DPS. I've seen it happen many, many times.

 

ETA, I do not play PvP. I don't care if the roles are balanced beyond everyone being able to contribute to an ops/boss win.

Edited January 31, 2013 by DorkTrooper

[Rafael_Peres]

Its,..2013 and I think we all can agree something needs to change. I am talking about the old, worn out and tired system of Tank, DPS, and Heal. It really is obsolete in this day and age,...everyone...EVERYONE no matter what class you are ....wants to beat on the bad guy,..they want to slay,..ok.....they don't want to follow rules in fights...they just want to beat on stuff and watch stuff die

 

This notion that you have to have dps, heal and tank in fights is old school...it's past its time

 

Ask anyone...ANYONE...and they will tell you...they just want to Tank n Spank and get hell outta there and collect the commendations. In and Out..simple..fast and done

 

As it is now,...what do people do in flashpoints? Lol...they skip trash and go directly to Boss and kill for the phat lewt. Spacebar commandos and don't you dare listen to the story...rush to the Boss...get your objective and done

 

Dps fights stuff that the tank isn't even fighting ROFL...healer is healing the dps'rs instead of the tank ROFL...tank is has no clue what aggro is ROFL.....i mean it is total chaos in mmo gaming now days. It is rare to find a coordinated group in traditional tank, heal and dps roles working like a swiss watch

 

Recommendation:

1. Give everyone a natural heal buff over time duration

2. Give everyone heavy armor

3. Give everyone an equal amount of dps

4. Get rid of need and pass and make all loot drop particular to your class and automatically go into your inventory

 

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

Try to do this in TFB HM or any other ops.

 

Game is more than few flashpoints.

[dacentabaal]

Dps fights stuff that the tank isn't even fighting ROFL...healer is healing the dps'rs instead of the tank ROFL...tank is has no clue what aggro is ROFL.....i mean it is total chaos in mmo gaming now days. It is rare to find a coordinated group in traditional tank, heal and dps roles working like a swiss watch

 

Sounds about right to me, unless its a guild pre made group then thats all i tend to get with my DPS'ers

Edited January 31, 2013 by dacentabaal

[tanktest]

Its,..2013 and I think we all can agree something needs to change. I am talking about the old, worn out and tired system of Tank, DPS, and Heal. It really is obsolete in this day and age,...everyone...EVERYONE no matter what class you are ....wants to beat on the bad guy,..they want to slay,..ok.....they don't want to follow rules in fights...they just want to beat on stuff and watch stuff die

 

This notion that you have to have dps, heal and tank in fights is old school...it's past its time

 

Ask anyone...ANYONE...and they will tell you...they just want to Tank n Spank and get hell outta there and collect the commendations. In and Out..simple..fast and done

 

As it is now,...what do people do in flashpoints? Lol...they skip trash and go directly to Boss and kill for the phat lewt. Spacebar commandos and don't you dare listen to the story...rush to the Boss...get your objective and done

 

Dps fights stuff that the tank isn't even fighting ROFL...healer is healing the dps'rs instead of the tank ROFL...tank is has no clue what aggro is ROFL.....i mean it is total chaos in mmo gaming now days. It is rare to find a coordinated group in traditional tank, heal and dps roles working like a swiss watch

 

Recommendation:

1. Give everyone a natural heal buff over time duration

2. Give everyone heavy armor

3. Give everyone an equal amount of dps

4. Get rid of need and pass and make all loot drop particular to your class and automatically go into your inventory

 

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

 

I don't disagree at all I mean it is a total cluster f .. but if they remove tanking , healing I wouldn't play Swtor , I didn't play GW2 because everyone could heal tank etc ... not fun to me

 

and I'M

 

 

Still

 

LMAO

 

But So true ...

Edited January 31, 2013 by tanktest

[Vitellius]

The more you try to get rid of the trinity, the more you find out that you can't get rid of the trinity.

[BJWyler]

Like many others, you obviously didn't ask me. I played GW1 and beta tested GW2. I must say, that after all my years of being a GW and Anet fanboi, GW1 and SWTOR are much more superior to Anet's "sequel." The defined roles and trees available to the classes here make rolling alts much more fun and interesting because you can create many different ways and strategies to play.

 

BJ

[wifeaggro]

Its,..2013 and I think we all can agree something needs to change. I am talking about the old, worn out and tired system of Tank, DPS, and Heal. It really is obsolete in this day and age,...everyone...EVERYONE no matter what class you are ....wants to beat on the bad guy,..they want to slay,..ok.....they don't want to follow rules in fights...they just want to beat on stuff and watch stuff die

 

This notion that you have to have dps, heal and tank in fights is old school...it's past its time

 

Ask anyone...ANYONE...and they will tell you...they just want to Tank n Spank and get hell outta there and collect the commendations. In and Out..simple..fast and done

 

As it is now,...what do people do in flashpoints? Lol...they skip trash and go directly to Boss and kill for the phat lewt. Spacebar commandos and don't you dare listen to the story...rush to the Boss...get your objective and done

 

Dps fights stuff that the tank isn't even fighting ROFL...healer is healing the dps'rs instead of the tank ROFL...tank is has no clue what aggro is ROFL.....i mean it is total chaos in mmo gaming now days. It is rare to find a coordinated group in traditional tank, heal and dps roles working like a swiss watch

 

Recommendation:

1. Give everyone a natural heal buff over time duration

2. Give everyone heavy armor

3. Give everyone an equal amount of dps

4. Get rid of need and pass and make all loot drop particular to your class and automatically go into your inventory

 

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

 

This is not the answer. Elimanating roles completey waters down team play. Look at gw2 everyone is a dps class dungeons are zerg fests on bosses. If is the worst group.play expierence ive ever had in an mmo what we need is more roles not jus tank heal and dps. We need to return to 6 roles adding true cc and true buffing and debuffing. We have totaly lost what mmos really are.

[Heezdedjim]

Archetypes happen because they matter.

[Cylnael]

I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

 

Eliminate jerks in mmos ?!?

 

You, sir, seem to have had quite a few bad experiences. Could you please enlighten us and explain what/who you put under the meaning of "Jerk". I know the dictionary definition. I, of course, have my own understanding of that term. But i think everybody has his/her own "Jerk" category.

 

What are jerks in mmos for you. People who don't play their role up to some standard ? People who skip every possible things ? PvErs, PvPers, RPers, crafters/gatherers/deconstructers ?

 

Because, as jerks in general are part of the human race and i don't think that you're calling for genocide, i don't see how whatever you suggested would prevent "them" from entering any game. So you must be speaking about something specific but apart from your "on loot" point i don't see where you're going.

 

As for mmos with out predefined roles, some people above pointed toward valid examples to which i would had Eve or secret world in their own ways but you're asking for a different game.

 

I don't think that it would be possible to change swtor that much, so again i don't see where you're going.

 

P.S. : ho, and to much RoFL and ... just point out your anger which is a bad ink.

[Lord_Karsk]

They tried this in Guild Wars 2. Guess what the biggest complaint is in the game?

 

Lack of dedicated roles.

 

This, GW2 is mega boring.

[Marak]

I leveled a thief to 80 in GW2 and I absolutely hated any sort of group PvE encounter due to the lack of the trinity. It was mildly novel idea for a day or two, but when squishy melee-centric classes become a liability then the system is fundamentally unstable.

 

The trinity is good because it works.

[bigray]

The one thing I would like to see is that the non-healing companions get some kind of self-heal to keep them viable. After about level 40 there isn't much point in running with any companion other than your healer. If story is the main focus then there is no need to hamstring it by forcing players to run with specific companions.