Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Comfterbilly]

Designed plays vs random disorganization... yeah they belong in the same queue.

 

Any other olive branch is unacceptable, without solo-only queue toggle. Don't care what 2.4 has - if not solo, its worthless.

[DariusCalera]

Designed plays vs random disorganization... yeah they belong in the same queue.

 

Any other olive branch is unacceptable, without solo-only queue toggle. Don't care what 2.4 has - if not solo, its worthless.

 

It is random disorganization only if people don't know what they are doing. If the players have even a semblance of competency then the WZ will begin to fall into place without much effort.

[Comfterbilly]

It is random disorganization only if people don't know what they are doing. If the players have even a semblance of competency then the WZ will begin to fall into place without much effort.

 

The objectives are simple but how you accomplish them can be complex; if you plan in advance it can be much more copmlex than your regular warzone. Think we can all agree ranked teams practice? - plan? - know what they're going to do in advance, a lot of times its a very out of the ordinary plan that a whole other ranked team might not expect. We're talking about putting these plans into play in regular warzones against 8 random players who come in knowing on their end that only so much is possible with the time and the tools that they have.

 

Takes more than competency when you have a queue bleed problem.

[cashogy_reborn]

The objectives are simple but how you accomplish them can be complex; if you plan in advance it can be much more copmlex than your regular warzone. Think we can all agree ranked teams practice? - plan? - know what they're going to do in advance, a lot of times its a very out of the ordinary plan that a whole other ranked team might not expect. We're talking about putting these plans into play in regular warzones against 8 random players who come in knowing on their end that only so much is possible with the time and the tools that they have.

 

Takes more than competency when you have a queue bleed problem.

 

i have never, ever seen a real rwz strat in regs. ever.

 

im guessing this is b/c the guilds that actually do RWZ cant be bothered to try the super queue, and when they queue 4-mans they usually have to play straight up b/c the rest of the team are less than adequate.

 

 

i can agree that PUGs v Premades is an issue. i think the problem can partly be solved by every player looking themselves in the mirror, and honestly asking/answering "do i suck?" and "what can *I* do to improve my game?". matchmaking would also be nice, to keep high skilled players from terrorizing newbies/low skilled players and turning them off of the game.

 

but nowhere in that problem is that RWZ strats are being run in regs. occasionally see one of those "im gonna play General" types that tries to organize some insane strat at the start of a WZ. ive yet to see one actually result in an positive outcome.

 

PUGs are simply overpowered, straight up, by better players/groups. fancy/complex strats have nothing to do with it.

[Comfterbilly]

but nowhere in that problem is that RWZ strats are being run in regs. occasionally see one of those "im gonna play General" types that tries to organize some insane strat at the start of a WZ. ive yet to see one actually result in an positive outcome.

 

Yeah that's complete hooey. See title of thread, "ranked teams ruining regs PVP", what are they doing in regs, NOT practicing? I see it all the time.

 

You're suggesting you get the same team and the same setup, and that somehow they're going to be like, "Nope, honor code, no plays guys this is regs, not like we're here to exploit regs or anything..."

 

Example, Huttball starts and its a team with rollers and maras ++, less than 35 seconds into the match six of them are all lined up in a passing row, they're passing before 20 seconds is up, that's a team with a coordinated practiced plan and a plan for what to do after people read their plan, and a plan for how to adjust after that. Doesn't belong in regs against 8 randoms who don't even know if they can play together.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[chaosmadness]

Already won matches in normal warzones against premades.

Not all premades are good...

Edited July 5, 2013 by chaosmadness

[Cretinus]

There's no organisation without communication, as a rule of thumb. Some people even claim that there's no organisation without some sort of leadership.

This is the reason why random teams are disorganized and bad, even in case that every single players is good.

 

A premade team on the other hand communicates and has 1 or 2 people organizing the actions during a WZ.

 

This makes such a huge difference that there should be different brackets for premades and randoms.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Cretinus

[DariusCalera]

Yeah that's complete hooey. See title of thread, "ranked teams ruining regs PVP", what are they doing in regs, NOT practicing? I see it all the time.

 

You're suggesting you get the same team and the same setup, and that somehow they're going to be like, "Nope, honor code, no plays guys this is regs, not like we're here to exploit regs or anything..."

 

Example, Huttball starts and its a team with rollers and maras ++, less than 35 seconds into the match six of them are all lined up in a passing row, they're passing before 20 seconds is up, that's a team with a coordinated practiced plan and a plan for what to do after people read their plan, and a plan for how to adjust after that. Doesn't belong in regs against 8 randoms who don't even know if they can play together.

 

That's a team of experienced players and not necessarily a premade because I have seen, and been a part of, that same scenario in a full PuG group.

 

It is also why a lot of the responders in this thread are saying that a better match making system would be better than split queues.

[TonyDragonflame]

i think the problem can partly be solved by every player looking themselves in the mirror, and honestly asking/answering "do i suck?" .

 

 

Bioware specially made video game for this purpose? What players in this game must look in mirrors and ask themselves "do I suck"?

[Atramar]

'do you suck'

things not to ask on the first date.

 

but please, give us some reasonable win/lose match making, separating ques would be bad thing.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Atramar

[Doomsdaycomes]

Bioware specially made video game for this purpose? What players in this game must look in mirrors and ask themselves "do I suck"?

 

Your lack of reading comprehension and lower-than-average intellect is showing again...

 

Nothing in Cash's post mentioned Bioware designing this game for any reason. He's correct though, most of the problems expressed in the PvP forum would be solved by people getting better/getting a better or more competitive attitude (since PvP is a competition by definition). There would be less QQ about grenades, gear, legacy respec, miss-informed class abilities, etc...

 

But since people's attitude/skill/competitive level is something Bioware can't control... other solutions are needed.

[Winterwolfen]

Almost 4300 replies now. Bio? Any chance we can get you to weigh in this? Anything at all?

[akabane_k]

Almost 4300 replies now. Bio? Any chance we can get you to weigh in this? Anything at all?

 

their response-deal with it, its a team game. Someone posted it a while back

[Vasagi]

Um...

 

Who exactly is saying any one isn't/shouldn't be unhappy about the current PvP landscape?

 

As far as I can tell everyone in this thread agrees there's a problem, just few agree on what the problem is or how to fix it. So your comments... kinda make no sense half the time.

 

I think most of us agree on what the problem is, even if you won't admit it. The problem is that solo players are getting farmed by premades. That leads to the game being frustrating or boring, which leads to people quitting. It still baffles me that some premade white knighters claim that being in a group doesn't give an advantage.

 

I'm not going to get bogged down into the semantics of the issue. There are already people here who are trying to derail and slow down the debate with rhetoric, circular arguments, etc.

 

Premades have these advantages over pugs:

 

-Voicechat to improve communication. This is the biggest advantage and why premades are able to win games even if they are outgeared

-Handpicked team comps with healer, tanks, and high dps classes

-Faster gear progression due to high win ratio

-Incentive to play to win, rather than pursue selfish medal farming etc.

-Experienced players helping new players to learn warzone strategies

-The ability to exclude bad/lazy/selfish/undergeared players from their premades

 

Don't bother with the "not ALL premades use vent, have healers, etc etc" argument. I've played enough to know that nearly all premades have the advantages I just listed, and there is no point in trying to cherrypick the few bad premades and totally random groups that suck as justification for premades farming pugs freely.

 

The best solution I can see is to get cross server queues in, implement a solo only queue, and allow groups of 2 and 4 into rated WZs.

 

Matchmaking would partly solve the issue, but high rated solo players are still going to have no chance against high rated premades.

[rlamela]

I think most of us agree on what the problem is, even if you won't admit it. The problem is that solo players are getting farmed by premades. That leads to the game being frustrating or boring, which leads to people quitting. It still baffles me that some premade white knighters claim that being in a group doesn't give an advantage.

 

I'm not going to get bogged down into the semantics of the issue. There are already people here who are trying to derail and slow down the debate with rhetoric, circular arguments, etc.

 

Premades have these advantages over pugs:

 

-Voicechat to improve communication. This is the biggest advantage and why premades are able to win games even if they are outgeared

-Handpicked team comps with healer, tanks, and high dps classes

-Faster gear progression due to high win ratio

-Incentive to play to win, rather than pursue selfish medal farming etc.

-Experienced players helping new players to learn warzone strategies

-The ability to exclude bad/lazy/selfish/undergeared players from their premades

 

Don't bother with the "not ALL premades use vent, have healers, etc etc" argument. I've played enough to know that nearly all premades have the advantages I just listed, and there is no point in trying to cherrypick the few bad premades and totally random groups that suck as justification for premades farming pugs freely.

 

The best solution I can see is to get cross server queues in, implement a solo only queue, and allow groups of 2 and 4 into rated WZs.

 

Matchmaking would partly solve the issue, but high rated solo players are still going to have no chance against high rated premades.

 

NO THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE IS NO MATCHMAKING SYSTEM. SERIOUSLY YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I AM IN A FULL PUG GROUP AGAINST ANOTHER FULL PUG GROUP AND THE WARZONE IS HORRIBLY ONE SIDED. LETS JUST SAY WAY MORE THEN I AM IN WHERE I LOSE BECAUSE OF A PREMADE FACEROLLING ME. STOP BLAMING OTHERS FOR BEING BETTER AT A GAME THEN YOU ARE AND START BLAMING BIOWARE FOR BEING A USELESS COMPANY. THE DAY THEY ADD MATCHMAKING SYSTEM IS THE DAY THIS THREAD ENDS.

 

The Bastion

Rellik - Jenna'syyde - Crackroxx

Edited July 6, 2013 by rlamela

[Forsaked]

Here on Jar'Kai Sword you can be to 70% sure that you end up in a pug vs. premade fight, if the round starts as rep vs. imp!

[cashogy_reborn]

Here on Jar'Kai Sword you can be to 70% sure that you end up in a pug vs. premade fight, if the round starts as rep vs. imp!

 

maybe form your own premade?

[Vasagi]

NO THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE IS NO MATCHMAKING SYSTEM. SERIOUSLY YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I AM IN A FULL PUG GROUP AGAINST ANOTHER FULL PUG GROUP AND THE WARZONE IS HORRIBLY ONE SIDED. LETS JUST SAY WAY MORE THEN I AM IN WHERE I LOSE BECAUSE OF A PREMADE FACEROLLING ME. STOP BLAMING OTHERS FOR BEING BETTER AT A GAME THEN YOU ARE AND START BLAMING BIOWARE FOR BEING A USELESS COMPANY. THE DAY THEY ADD MATCHMAKING SYSTEM IS THE DAY THIS THREAD ENDS.

 

The Bastion

Rellik - Jenna'syyde - Crackroxx

 

Holy cow, batman! Have a beer, go for a walk. Calm down.

 

I am absolutely willing to admit I am not an elite pvper. I put myself at above average, semi-casual player. If I mess up and it costs us a node, points, or a loss, I admit it. If you are going to try and tell me every player on every premade that farms me is more skilled than I am, I am going to say you are wrong.

 

Matchmaking will only solve part of the problem. Premades are at an advantage because they handpick their team, have far, FAR superior communication. Matchmaking will not fix that at all.

[Vaerah]

maybe form your own premade?

 

Those who play regular WZs play them exactly because they can't form their own premades. Else they'd just play RWZ and farm ranked coms instead of wasting months grinding regular coms to convert at 1:3 ratio.

[cashogy_reborn]

Those who play regular WZs play them exactly because they can't form their own premades. Else they'd just play RWZ and farm ranked coms instead of wasting months grinding regular coms to convert at 1:3 ratio.

 

because 2, 3 and 4 man premades can queue for RWZ.......

[Boch]

Holy cow, batman! Have a beer, go for a walk. Calm down.

 

I am absolutely willing to admit I am not an elite pvper. I put myself at above average, semi-casual player. If I mess up and it costs us a node, points, or a loss, I admit it. If you are going to try and tell me every player on every premade that farms me is more skilled than I am, I am going to say you are wrong.

 

Matchmaking will only solve part of the problem. Premades are at an advantage because they handpick their team, have far, FAR superior communication. Matchmaking will not fix that at all.

 

This a problem I see with most people wanting the solo que over match making is they over value team speak. The skill of the players and the comp of those skilled players give much larger advantages than being on team speak.

[maverickmatt]

because 2, 3 and 4 man premades can queue for RWZ.......

 

Well.....

 

Even if 2, 3, or 4 man premades COULD queue for RWZ... They'd still get slammed by that 8 man group that they would face.

 

The problem still remains.

 

It is unfortunate, and only a select few of you will admit it, but the reality is that sometimes you have to apply a blanket solution. In fact, ALL the time.

 

Case in point:

 

Democracy. The majority wins out, and what's good for the majority may be bad for the minority but that's the way it works (ideally. Our "democracy" is a bit different, but this isn't politics so...).

 

 

Also, case in point:

 

This game. If Bioware ascertains that the majority of players (casuals DO make up the majority) are unhappy with WZ and one of the primary reasons why is premades, Bioware will take the path of least resistance and give us solo-queue.

[Vaerah]

because 2, 3 and 4 man premades can queue for RWZ.......

 

Don't try looking too smart because everyone here know how it works.

 

A RWZ guild forms those 4 men premades for the off-hours or to gear up alts "farming bads". They try to slip in 2 groups to form the "double premade in regular WZ effect" that most have experienced on their skin one day or another.

Non RWZ guilds may form 4 men but those groups are half as strong. Those who really want to be competitive, in fact, don't join those "half attempt guilds" but go directly to a RWZ grade guild, those who don't, tend to form:

 

- less geared 4 men, because being in a non RWZ guild does not allow them to gear up at competitive levels;

- "organic" groups with tank, healer etc. Competitive RWZ guilds form more FOTM setups - they play to win and hard.

 

Basically you are trying to slip in two different approaches to playing group WZs that look similar but have drastically different results. I end up playing every day with non RWZ guild 4 men premades, those carry our team well enough to win against randoms but if a RWZ guild 4 men joins in, they get rolled. Less than true randoms but still get rolled.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I think most of us agree on what the problem is, even if you won't admit it.

 

*Sigh*

 

Just... *Sigh*

 

The issue is the system allows those with higher skill/competitive level/advantages, or whatever you wanna call it to be placed against those with lower (whatever is the least offensive quantifier).

 

I've said this multiple times. Other people consistently want to argue the problem is full 8-man Premades vs Full PuGs... which is only one facet of what causes lopsided matches.

 

I'm tired of repeating myself.

[Doomsdaycomes]

The majority wins out, and what's good for the majority may be bad for the minority but that's the way it works (ideally. Our "democracy" is a bit different, but this isn't politics so...).

 

First, Casuals and Casual PuG-only players, too separate groups.

 

Secondly, it's Majority rule with Minority rights.

 

Other than that, not much else to say... other than Matchmaking once again will solve the most issues for the majority and minority.