Class changes and balance in Game Update 1.3

[OnlyNameLeft]

In regards to the tanking changes discussed in this post, I think everyone, but most especially the Shadow/Assassin community, is over-reacting and employing quite the fair amount of revisionist history.

 

To those of you who say your Shadow/'Sin is "already the worst of the tanks" are delusional. I have all one of each variety, all 50s, and all progressed through end-game content. By far and away the easiest class to tank with is the Shadow/'Sin. Case in point, as my 'Sin was the 2nd tank I levelled it lagged in gear behind my main, a Jugg. Even with far inferior gear, the class easily held it's own in PVE encounters and just felt easier to play. To say now, as our class is being brought in-line with the other two tanks, that we were in any way anything but better at the job than Guardians/Juggs and Vanguards/PTs is revisionist history to better sell the woe-is-me story of the "nerf bat."

 

Insofar as overall PVE usefulness, I think that the more impactful change is that to the "smart" AoE functionality of abilities like Wither. Countless times in an Op have I been unable to maintain the use of two of my mainstay abilities as a 'Sin tank due to the fact that mobs surrounding the current target were CC'd. In fact, when asked about the differences in tanking styles amoungst the 3 tanks, my main "con" for the 'Sin was it's reliance on AoE abilities that triggered your defensive capabilities - thus forcing you to tank at less than optimal levels for certain fights. No longer is that an Achilles heel of the class.

 

Again, this is not a knee-jerk reaction to patch notes, this is an opinion based on playing each of the tanks at 50 through end-game, PVE content. Even before the changes were announced, I would consistently tell anyone who asked about the tank classes that the Shadow/'Sin was by far the easiest to play - provided you were awake at the keyboard and kept up your Dark Ward, Discharge, and Wither. Hell, during the gearing process of my 'Sin, his survivability was on-par with a better geared Jugg. Any changes being levied againt the Shadows/'Sins of the world are less about "nerfs" and more about being brought in-line with the rest.

[HelinCarnate]

Here is a post from the Smuggler Thread.

 

I feel, that with 1.3 coming up it is time to revisit two issues that BW did in 1.2.

 

1) Give Corso back his harpoon. Bowdaar is the melee tank so give us back the harpoon that let us preserve our cc's, and be able to use back blast, dirty kick, and blaster whip, as well as our interrupts, while still being able to keep our distance as a range class should.

 

2) Bring back the Giggles. Some people complained about the laughing when Upper Hand was granted and BW just up and removed it. Instead, they should give us a toggle and make it so only the player can hear it, and not everyone around them.

 

After 1.2 was released there was a huge uproar on the Suggestion Box forum regarding these changes and it's time for BW to make amends.

 

1) Never ever give Corso back his harpoon. I hated the early levels with him always pulling away a mob from my aoe or mob I was about to hit with a melee attack causing almost every encnounter to take longer than it does with him having a charge instead.

 

2) Hated the giggles. I can live with a toggle as long as I dont ever have to hear anyone elses giggles.

[Akabeth]

[snip]

 

PvE game.

 

All the best,

Akabeth

Edited June 7, 2012 by Akabeth

[Meskel]

PLEASE address time to kill in PVP. You have already been stated that this is too low.

[Ramahospitality]

1) Never ever give Corso back his harpoon. I hated the early levels with him always pulling away a mob from my aoe or mob I was about to hit with a melee attack causing almost every encnounter to take longer than it does with him having a charge instead..

 

Then use Bowdaar, as has been said over and over again. I never had any of the problems you're mentioning.

[Lison]

Worst changes ever... More buffs to snipers and mercs? So exactly how long are we going to continue pretending you don't specifically play those classes? Or that smug/operatives aren't the most rediculously overpowered class in the game?

 

... Never? Cool.

 

Looks like someone sucks against stealth or cover characters. Maybe you learn to counter them and stop whining?

[Callmeboba]

Not once is operative even mentioned in this patch.

 

So how bad is it that you didn't want to tell us?

 

-.-

[Dozoku]

Not once is operative even mentioned in this patch.

 

So how bad is it that you didn't want to tell us?

 

-.-

 

5% healing reduction.

[Flying-Brian]

We’re always trying to make sure that the “capstone ability” at the end of each skill tree is attractive and appropriate for the investment required to unlock it.

 

If this is the statement you are standing by, then please go back and fix Demo Round/Heat Seeking Missile. With the heavy nerf that hit these skills in patch 1.2c, the “capstone ability” of Commando's and Merc's does the same or (more often then not) less damage then grav round/tracer missile. The fact that it is the 31pt skill to unlock and you need to set it up by hitting your target 3x with another skill. Then have it hit for the same or less damage then the set up skill (if it did not crit), you have the perfect example of a skill that is not attractive or appropriate for the investment required to unlock it.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Flying-Brian

[Callmeboba]

5% healing reduction.

 

Psh. Alright.

 

I play concealment. Please, please tell me they're nerfing the BLASTED sages.

[Migrayn]

Assassins in tank stance have much lower defense and armor rating then the other tanks already. They have to rely on shielding. You can't shield anything in PvP that is going to actually hurt you. Now you lower their armor and minor healing even more.

 

You should make shields actually work in PvP to offset this loss of survivability to a tank class. Unless you want all sins to just be DPS specs.

[Madbent]

Not a huge fan of the Jugg changes. I'm probably one of the only full Immortal Juggernauts that uses this spec (with full WH War Leader gear) pretty much only for PvP, with PvE as an afterthought. While I agree the threat gen changes are needed for PvE, the changes make this spec more useless for 1v1 PvP encounters with the decreased ability to deal damage. It becomes a useful spec only for Team based PvP with the additions to AoE.

 

It is already impossible to kill DoT Sages/Sorcs as a full Immortal 1v1 due to kiting, and Op/Smuggler Healers also because of the uninterruptable constant stacked hots. This change means Sage/Sorc and Merc/Trooper healers will also go into the impossible to kill category.

 

Looks like I'll be like everyone else and be a (yawn) smash-happy Ragernaut.

[Madbent]

Assassins in tank stance have much lower defense and armor rating then the other tanks already. They have to rely on shielding. You can't shield anything in PvP that is going to actually hurt you. Now you lower their armor and minor healing even more.

 

You should make shields actually work in PvP to offset this loss of survivability to a tank class. Unless you want all sins to just be DPS specs.

 

No, they really were OP. Light armor should never equal, and (absurdly... I mean really... a robe and dress exceeding freaking quadranium and whatnot???) exceed heavy armor characters. Add the self healing and it was pretty ridiculous.

 

And yeah that counts for PvP too. Why are there so many of them if that wasn't the case?

[Asacado]

Yet another nerf to the concealment and scrapper trees, biochem effectively removed from pvp...

 

So you ARE going the same way WoW has gone, guess my SWTOR subscription will go the same way my WoW subscription has gone once 1.3 hits.

 

First day the PTS is live and you're already pulling this? Sad. We have at least 3 weeks for tweaks. Someone needs to take a lesson from "WoW" and quit QQing and presuming everything.

[Jordalx]

Please, please tell me they're nerfing the BLASTED sages.

 

LOL Good joke.

[krisknife]

No, they really were OP. Light armor should never equal, and (absurdly... I mean really... a robe and dress exceeding freaking quadranium and whatnot???) exceed heavy armor characters. Add the self healing and it was pretty ridiculous.

 

And yeah that counts for PvP too. Why are there so many of them if that wasn't the case?

 

I beg to differ, it all depends. If a shadow/sin has put his skill points in his tanking tree and the other said "heavy armor user" is a heavy but scaled DPS then yes a shadow/sin should be on par or equal too. I have never seen anyone , save the early levels starting out, say shadow is the greatest tank or the easiest to tank with so it's not in fact better than any tanks standing in upper tier armor classes , to say so is just hating. They are the easiest to learn to use effectively , Hince the large numbers of them, but that's only early on that it gives you any kind of edge.

 

BW designed shadows as tanks, not just dps, they did this knowingly. For a light class toon to tank it needs excellent mitigation , which shadows have after 1.3 pve mitigation will not allow shadows much of a role in a party, claim them OP all you want, they are a very versatile class and clever players play them well, but their damage is mediocre at best , it's their durability that made them useful in parties, DPS rolls will be filled by bigger hammers kudos for "garaging " shadows/sins with 1.3. I will still use mine to terrorize PVP though, it's just sad to see a class lose it's roll. I hope they offer class resets to those who ask, should be possible through CS, would be the right thing, they won't be tanks anymore.

[Culdor]

I think ultimately the changes to sin are fine for PvP, though I do not think they went far enough with harnessed darkness and its mirror. Really needs to be interuptable at the very least, damage reduced to go along with the healing reduction might be a good idea as well.

 

The change to armor bonus from dark charge will hurt sin tanks in PvE unnecessarily in my opinion. Hard enough to tank as a sin, the nerf to armor in my opinion will remove us from being a viable option for anything but emergency/off tanking.

[Terrorgirl]

The guy who is in charge with balancing classes dont have any clues how some of classes work...take mercenary as exemple we waited so long for a fix and all we see is more nerfs...you guys really need to get an mercenary and start play it in pvp because you really make more ppl sad and less subs for your company too...i will be 1 of those 1 who wont sub anymore...Mercenary class is broken.... Unload is not working on full auto....and 90% is getting also bugged and the char will stay fixed on the dead...and this is not the only 1... our class is the only class who is getting intrerupted not only 1 single spell but the entire rotation if we get intrerupted. our surviving is broken too take any other class in game and check there is no other class who is broken like mercenary.,.you guys still buff up Force users and you espect us to reroll all on same op classes? learn to balance before this game will die

The problem with Arsenal is that it take way too much time to reach our DPS potential while other classes have it all in the instant.

from pvp point:

1. Still no change to survivability against melee, no change to constantly beeing interupted, or otherwise getting your skills chain interupted by other kinds of cc.

2. Still no escape abilities to get away from melee, once you get a melee player on your, their on you until either one of you are dead, 90% of the time its you.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Terrorgirl

[Saint-Exupery]

Assa Tanks will have the lower damage mitigation by far, their avoidance (defense) and shield abs is useless in pvp and MOST bosses. Our CD don't reduce all damage type like the other tanks.

Bioware, you have no idea what-so-ever of how things work in your game....

 

If you go with this changes, then you have to give CDs that actually work in PvE and PvP and something to compensate the difference in the damage reduction.

[Boxer]

I honestly felt that Shadow Tanks needed more armor, not less, and am shocked to see this nerf. The healing factor against OPS bosses is nice but really only comes into play when damage is low and the healer can keep up anyway, or maybe on flashpoint or general pve enemies. Shadow Tanks are already noticeably more squishy to burst damage from bosses and I'm suspecting this nerf will push it past the limit of acceptability.

 

I also feel like even if they felt a nerf was needed, this one was extreme. This was in no way game breaking, so trying a smaller nerf to start with would have been SOOO much better than this, which is potentially class breaking.

[Steele_dk]

Very nice read and thank you for insight in how changes are made.

 

As a healer though (sorc), i couldnt help to feel a bit dissapointed.

 

I could have swear i read on some interview that they were gonna look into the useability of healers.

[Missandei]

lol.. 1.3 Kaon hard mode barely playable with 3Rakata/2Columi geared ShadowTank..

Great job BioWare!..

You have invented new party composition for Raids - 1 «Tank», 3 healers (2 dedicated for Tank), 4 DPS..

Sure such raid will lack DPS output and can`t be done for HardMosde ops.. But who cares? Thats PvP game! Oh, wait.. PvPeers are still leaving this game cause of boresome PvP..

 

I see that you are encouraging people who are like to Tank in PvE to leave Sin/Shadow class and go level Jugg/PT, but no, thanks..

 

I appreciate your hard work BW_Team and want make a gift of appreciation from me - canceled Sub as 1.3 goes live...

Edited June 7, 2012 by Missandei

[Exiled-Phoenix]

No, they really were OP. Light armor should never equal, and (absurdly... I mean really... a robe and dress exceeding freaking quadranium and whatnot???) exceed heavy armor characters. Add the self healing and it was pretty ridiculous.

 

And yeah that counts for PvP too. Why are there so many of them if that wasn't the case?

 

Why were there so many? Because of the stealth.

Not because they were better then other tanks, but simply because of the stealth.

[Escarrabutxaques]

So no addressing marauders/sentinals having the best defensive cool downs that all stack? Their defensive cool downs are just absurde.

No addressing scrappers and concealment ops dps and survivability? Nerfing Survival Training and Survivors Scars isn't helping them at all.

 

 

The list could go on, but the lack of any marauder and sentinals nerfs. more or less proves BW only cares about flashy light sabers. I can only hope that the listed changes arent the only ones that are going to come in 1.3. If so rated WZs will be nothing more then teams of 8 marauders or 8 sentinals in the top ratings.

 

^this

I know, it's just my opinion... But I am surprised how the developers actually manage to make class balance of this game only worse with every patch.

 

The shadow/assassin tank problem wasn't really a survivability problem, it was survivability AND their damage output, so a wise decision would be to apply an effect for defensive stance, something like "Damage dealt to players reduced by 15%", this way dealing with those tanks in dps gear. It shouldn't be very hard to implement, since the expertise mechanic is there and it wouldn't hurt assassins/shadows in PvE. Now with the changes you made, you forced tank assassins/shadows to use dps gear in pvp, basicly making those true tanks in tank gear not viable for pvp.

 

While removing "on use" adrenals/relics which provide a damage increase from the game might look like a good idea, there are actually advanced classes that rely on burst, like deception assassins, concealment operatives and their republic counterparts. This change will hurt them badly, since the entire idea behind those specs is to deal large amount of damage in few gcds, while their target is incapacitated (stunned/knocked down). Removing that extra damage from relics/adrenals during the burst will affect a lot on effectivenes of those classes.

 

Operative/Scoundrels changes.. You really need to cripple even more the survivability of the class that has the less mobility, less defensive cooldowns and less utility? Really?

 

And lastly, marauders/sentinels really need to be toned down. Maybe, instead of checking metrics, run some tests on how well marauder/sentinel heavy teams actually perform? Or should they be able to chain root and chain use predation/bloodthirst? Not to speak of Undying Rage/Guarded by the Force + medpac/healing.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Escarrabutxaques

[Ancaglon]

Playtest it! Over and over again. If performance is, indeed, falling short of target, they'll adjust it.

 

If it is actually on target, adjust your rotation.

 

Allix Crowe - Vanguard Trooper -/- Ethavan Crowe - Smuggler Gunslinger -/- Malrath Crowe - Powertech Bounty Hunter -/- Boslo - Jedi Knight Sentinel -/- Jiao-gen Pall - Jedi Knight Guardian -/- Landen Tanarr - Jedi Consular Sage -/- Vaelyth Kinti-kaar- Sith Warrior Juggernaut -/- Nero'seth - Imperial Agent Sniper -/- Zandur Tuum - Cathar Knight

 

So, you're extremely knowledgeable about the one tank class/counterpart you don't play... why am I not in the least surprised?

 

Your faith in Bioware's ability to take note of, and respond positively to, playtest feedback, is touchingly naive.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Ancaglon