Class changes and balance in Game Update 1.3

[Ramahospitality]

I honestly felt that Shadow Tanks needed more armor, not less, and am shocked to see this nerf. The healing factor against OPS bosses is nice but really only comes into play when damage is low and the healer can keep up anyway, or maybe on flashpoint or general pve enemies. Shadow Tanks are already noticeably more squishy to burst damage from bosses and I'm suspecting this nerf will push it past the limit of acceptability.

 

I also feel like even if they felt a nerf was needed, this one was extreme. This was in no way game breaking, so trying a smaller nerf to start with would have been SOOO much better than this, which is potentially class breaking.

 

They tried to balance shadows with the heavy armor classes by reducing their armor. By making their armor less, the healing would make up the difference. However, what happened is they made the armor equal, or a little under equal, and the healing put them above the others. WE have to see exactly how this works out and have a little faith that if they royally screw up then it will be fixed.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Ramahospitality

[danpen]

It is not that fare that they are doing this for people.

[Star-ranger]

Those armors... hmm...just too much combo of WOW and Mech-warrior. They don't look Star Warsy at all. Might fit in City of Heroes but not Star Wars. Edited June 7, 2012 by Star-ranger

[TheRedNalroni]

Just to clarrify what was stated-

 

this armor adjustment was making them passively just as good as the heavy armor tanks.

 

Now Im going to highlight the relevant phrase about Pre nerf tanking assassins...

making them passively just as good as the heavy armor tanks

Theyre Saying Just as good, They're NOT saying "surpassing", OR "far superior", in fact the very phrase 'just as good' implies that theyre 'ALMOST' as good and that is why theyre nerfing them further.

 

Therefore they are clearly stating Assassin Tanks SHOULD NOT be as GOOD as the other tanks. They SHOULD be WEAKER.

 

SO theyre Clearly stating Assassin Tanks were never supposed to be on par with the other tanks and therefore need to be nerfed... as stated.

 

SO quit all your whining, Stop Playing Assassins as a PVE tank because they're NOT supposed to be played that way, CLEARLY stated by Bioware.

Edited June 7, 2012 by TheRedNalroni

[cantfindanamee]

as a shadow tank these changes seem really harsh. i accept the healing nerf but the armor would hurt more than you think. as a tank right now i have barely over 42% damage reduction now with this nerf a smuggler is able to have more armor than me? this needs to be thought out alot more before doing something that extreme.

[MillionsKNives]

Just to clarrify what was stated-

 

 

Now Im going to highlight the relevant phrase about Pre nerf tanking assassins...

 

Theyre Saying Just as good, They're NOT saying "surpassing", OR "far superior", in fact the very phrase 'just as good' implies that theyre 'ALMOST' as good and that is why theyre nerfing them further.

 

Therefore they are clearly stating Assassin Tanks SHOULD NOT be as GOOD as the other tanks. They SHOULD be WEAKER.

 

SO theyre Clearly stating Assassin Tanks were never supposed to be on par with the other tanks and therefore need to be nerfed... as stated.

 

SO quit all your whining, Stop Playing Assassins as a PVE tank because they're NOT supposed to be played that way, CLEARLY stated by Bioware.

 

No, the very phrase "just as good" means (doesn't just imply) that they're no better or worse. And if you took the time to read, the rest of the paragraph states that when considering the self-healing that they have as well they were placing better (read: superior) in survivability than the other tanks.

 

Because your entire rant pivots on them having said something different it's completely invalid.

Edited June 7, 2012 by MillionsKNives

[zegota]

Just to clarrify what was stated-

 

 

Now Im going to highlight the relevant phrase about Pre nerf tanking assassins...

 

Theyre Saying Just as good, They're NOT saying "surpassing", OR "far superior", in fact the very phrase 'just as good' implies that theyre 'ALMOST' as good and that is why theyre nerfing them further.

 

Therefore they are clearly stating Assassin Tanks SHOULD NOT be as GOOD as the other tanks. They SHOULD be WEAKER.

 

SO theyre Clearly stating Assassin Tanks were never supposed to be on par with the other tanks and therefore need to be nerfed... as stated.

 

SO quit all your whining, Stop Playing Assassins as a PVE tank because they're NOT supposed to be played that way, CLEARLY stated by Bioware.

 

Stop posting this. Here's the Shadow class description from the official website:

 

Tactical Role(s): Melee Damage, Melee Tank

 

You severely misunderstand what the devs are saying. They're saying they intend our damage mitigation to be slightly less than other tanks, but for our healing to make up for it. The problem is that it doesn't. Not even close. It didn't even before the change, and it absolutely doesn't now.

[KalTorrak]

I'm SO glad I didn't resub to this game, and these changes I can just give myself a nice pat on the back, no changes for the most underplayed and underpowered class in the game (imp op and scoundrel) and they just breeze over it like its not a care in the world, well no more money for you bioware, at least not from me

 

To be honest the game had the best balance straight out of the box on release, now the balance is just getting worse it seems for PvP (only reason I played the game) and the engine was probably the worst I've come across ever, and the bugs, lord the bugs, then when stuff goes wrong, Biowares customer service is with the worse I've had to experience.

 

Again so glad I'm not giving this terrible company my money anymore, my only regret is buying the game to begin with collectors was so expensive, only good thing was meeting some nice people in game, but they all left due to everything I've said above.

[Phlem]

No change to Sorc/Sage DPS? Which is pathetic compared to other DPS classes, in addition to being the squishiest?

Not to mention that Sorc/Sage Heals are broken, pathetic, and crap, compared to other healer classes, also, in addition to being the squishiest?

 

You have Sorcs/Sages confused with DPS Ops/Scoundrels.

[Phlem]

consider your position, but from another perspective.

 

if you are the healer, and 1 person is on you, and you have no chance of actually killing him, shouldn't you at least be able to survive and run away?

 

it's not like the scoundrel is standing there toe to toe with you, healing himself up while killing you.

 

paper rock scissors.

 

Boom, QFT ^

[oredith]

You have Sorcs/Sages confused with DPS Ops/Scoundrels.

it's funny seeing the sorc/sage and op/scoundrel complain to each other about who's worse.

 

it's like a couple of millionaires complaining about not being able to buy the latest jet.

 

meanwhile, the merc/commando is flying coach with jet blue.

[Phlem]

Bro that's not even the point, the 115% armor is a huge nerf man. Right now a shadow tank can't even 1v1 a marauder anymore. much less hold 2 to 3 ppl. we just became the most horrible class in the game both pve and pvp. I honestly don't think they have any idea what their doing, it seems they are in panic mode because of in experiences players crying how "over powered shadows are" its bad enough in beta we were nerf really bad now this crap again is just bloody silly, i could have live with the less healing part but seriously 115% armor? just what is the point of even playing a shadow or an assassin or even playing at all? It takes skills to be a shadow and a assassin, far beyond the skills of easy class like 1 button spam for gunners. ( no offences) Now i found out they mess with the relics as well? this game just became a video game for 9 year old.

 

You pretty much summed up why the nerf came in the first place. First part being BW doesn't up think anyone should be able to beat a marauder/sentinal, and second you aren't suppose to be able to live through 2-3 people beating on you.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Phlem

[Phlem]

I just have one question. What is the point of having the tanking tree in Shadow if y'all are nerfing HS healing and the combat technique armor bonus? I mean seriously. People complained about the DPS from Shadows/Assassins in PvP. Not the survivability. Reduce our damage that we do to PLAYERS by a certain percentage while in CT and the issue would have been solved. Or how about buffing the other two tress so that not everybody will flock to the tanking tree. Nerfing a class in PvE because of PvP crying has never been good for any game. It didn't work in SWG and it dang well won't work here.

 

They have been complaining about the survivability much longer then the self heal. Nice selection of FoTM classes you picked.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Phlem

[Phlem]

it's funny seeing the sorc/sage and op/scoundrel complain to each other about who's worse.

 

it's like a couple of millionaires complaining about not being able to buy the latest jet.

 

meanwhile, the merc/commando is flying coach with jet blue.

 

Sorcs/sages complaining about survivability being the worst is kind of what I'm talking about. Yes they suffer when it comes to mobility healing, but they make up for it with their sheild that they can pop on anyone and they still have some of the best stationary heals. The reality is they are probably both on even keels as far as each others survivability goes when you take each others weaknesses into account.

[Phlem]

Assassins are actually the one class that has been receiving nerfs more than any other class and started out as a class that was weakest in their respective areas at the time of the nerfs (mostly killing their Hybrid specs as they were superior to their main specs).

This lead to a total rework of the Assassin Darkness tree with the addition of Wither and the self healing mechanic.

Now this has been deemed as above the '2%' respective target Bioware wants. After 5 Months of it being in and other specs and adjustments have been made to all classes during that time, I would like to know What made it suddenly a problem?

 

1) What is the Target level aimed at for the Change?

As the change in Dark Charge is a change in a 'multiple' effect its effects Multiply far beyond the target nerf group.

Tionese Wearers will find that there low armour from the 35% reduction is going to be huge, making tanking in Flashpoints frustrating with a huge decrease in survivability. Where as Higher level tanks such as in Blackhole/campaign will barely notice the difference other than multiple mob tanking where again this 35% reduction is multiplied by each of the trash mobs being tanked. This will make Lower level Assassin tanks as undesirable for tanking and therefore unable to gear up to the respective level required for tanking.

 

2) The Armour nerf is multiplied for each and every additional Mob being tanked

Not Only is this armour nerf a multiple of the Tanks base armour, every mob attacking the tank benefits from this reduction in mitigation. a 35% Difference is an increase in damage by 35% for every mob. 3 Mobs will mean the tank is taking the extra damage 3 times over.

 

3) Assassin Tanks rely on Armor Mitigation alot MORE than the other tanks

Base Armor on Each of the different types of tanks is respective of their Tanking itemisation where Juggernauts/Powertech and their Republic counterparts Have a higher Defence (avoidance) and their Armour is applied HALF as often as a Armor dependant tank such as the Shadow or Assassin that relies on the Mitigation of the armour. That in itself means more than the Tue Value of whether Assassins are wearing Heavy Armour or not

 

If a Juggernaut/Powertech is only hit 60% or 70% of the time due to high Defence rating. Heavy Armour only benefits when the tank is actually HIT.

An Assassin has much lower Defence and is hit 80% of the time meaning that the affects of armour on a Shadow/Assassin Tank is applied more often and that a reduction in current armour means that they will take more damage than the other two tanks because of this lack of avoidance almost Twice as often.

 

 

4) Multiple Mobs, multiply the damage reduction exponentially

Assassins Dark Ward has but 10 Charges and without it makes their mitigation from shielding Worse than other 'Heavy Armor' tanks that have a base shield mechanic and do not have to rely on charges or a resource that can diminish quickly in a multi mob situation. An additional 10% shielding over the other tanks for only 10 attacks every 12 seconds or have 10% less shielding diminishes its effectiveness on multi mob tanking. This Multiplies the amount of damage an Assassin TANK will take over the other tanks in amulti mob tanking situation.

 

Conclusion

ALL of this will inevitably render the tank as the WEAKEST and Last choice for Flashpoint and Operations groups.

I have no idea its effects in PVP I play only to RAID. But a Change to fix PVP that destroys the optimal viability of a class Spec is a BAD change. PVP will need to be adjusted some other way.

 

To balance the classes if the change in armour mitigation is to go ahead:

If the Armour Mitigation of an Assassin Tank is to have Heavy Armour, it should have equal affect to the other tanks.

Reduce the other tanks Avoidance/Abilities to the level of the Assassin. Or Increase the Assassins Avoidance to the level of the other tanks.

 

Shield mechanics should be equal across the board, they should not use a resource and be limited by charges or use. They should mirror identically the affects of all tanks.

 

The classes mitigate armour in completely different ways and the adjustments planned significantly decrease the affectiveness of the assassin tank to Well below a '2%' target below other tanks. It doesnt need to be play tested when mathematically and theoretically shouldn't balance with other tanks. Testing the current changes is affectively formalising the changes as working as intended and is not a true test of viability. Largely due to the target group of gear level being FAR and WIDE.

 

______________________

 

My Own personal Circumstances and Whine is in the Spoiler because Im sure people dont want to see it

But these changes could spell the end of the game for me. And there is no other game id rather play.

 

My guild has 4 tanks and down to 8 man raiding due to population. I am the only Assassin tank. I compete for every raid spot. I do not play Alts. My Guild is clearing Explosive Conflict Hard Mode in a single night of raiding. If my character becomes unviable in raid content at this level it destroys the entire game for me. I can no longer play the part of the game I enjoy without having to reroll to a new class I know nothing about, level to 50 and still not have the means to gear to the level the guild is currntly at. It means Bye bye to my friends I have to find a guild my gear level to gear up...etc etc Its just not worth the Monthly fee.

 

Saying that have been the most nerfed class is flat out wrong. DPS Ops/Scoundrels have that distinction by a long shot.

[Sundragon]

Well, I for one am very pleased that the developers/community managers actually spent the time to write why the changes to each class were made. I don't think i've seen that from other games when class changes were made.

 

That said, I am also very happy to see the changes that are coming to assassin's using a tank-spec but wearing DPS gear. It was rather overpowered as they dealt too much damage and had too much survivability in PvP. I hope the patch changes the dynamic to make them either one or the other, but not both tank AND dps at the same time.

[JeramieCrowe]

Our guild has a Shadow tank who doesn't use the heal in her rotation because she doesn't have to. What BioWare is here stating is that using the Shadow self-heal is the intended design of the class.

 

It sounds to me like some are just not wanting to play the class as it was intended. Adjust your rotation, that simple.

[Ancaglon]

Our guild has a Shadow tank who doesn't use the heal in her rotation because she doesn't have to. What BioWare is here stating is that using the Shadow self-heal is the intended design of the class.

 

It sounds to me like some are just not wanting to play the class as it was intended. Adjust your rotation, that simple.

 

It sounds to me like you have no clue whatsoever on this subject, as pretty much proven by your signature. A shadow tank that wasn't using Harnessed for healing was an idiot, and likely one that caused unnecessary problems for their healers. All those with half a clue were, and are, using it, and having that cut by 1/3 pushes us that much closer to total irrelevance.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Ancaglon

[JeramieCrowe]

It sounds to me like you have no clue whatsoever on this subject, as pretty much proven by your signature. A shadow tank that wasn't using Harnessed for healing was an idiot, and likely one that caused unnecessary problems for their healers.

 

Probably true. We have an excellent healer. She's healed for us through many MMOs. The Shadow tanks quite well. Will double-check with her to make sure she's using Harness.

 

That said, if the class isn't performing within parameters overall, then the class isn't performing within parameters overall.

[Akabeth]

To start, I play a Vanguard as my main and yet im compelled to post because looking at the changes I too feel sorry for Shadow Tanks. These changes according to past statements is done via mathematical equations and spreadsheets and no matter how you look at it, no amount of spreadsheets can tell the full story without actually playing the actual class in question.

 

Not quite.

 

On the contrary I'm certain that they've tested for these changes and it has been thoroughly calculated. The problem for players is that they've settled for one the narrowest minded solutions. Changes that are lacking and of this nature, shouldn't come as a surprise anymore.

 

They've taken up the challenge of building up a virtual entity that's mobile at its best and simply tweaked it's upper flow (i.e. logic), while ignoring how it's lower level mechanisms interact with each other -- the stuff that PvPers will [eventually] notice and contend with day in, day out. Instead of expanding upon or making certain aspects more intriguing, they'll just 'tweak it' or stuff add-ons into place.

 

I just think those with a voice either have no understanding or refuse to accept the nature of PvP. If I had anything left to tell them is that, the realities of PvP are fleeting. I wrote a critical post on this thread yesterday (that I retracted) that basically stated: the office is willing to go to any length to isolate the player variable and I reason that PvPers will neither enjoy or thrive in that environment. They've constantly tried their damndest to manipulate this game into producing acceptable 'returns' but in a bass ackwards fashion, which unfortunately for the team, many players have noticed this.

 

****, by the time 1.1 came out, I thought to myself this is Star Wars: The Old Republic? At that point I knew the only way things could change was to have the shot-callers replaced. Then yesterday I checked out the PTS and got all excited until I glanced at the patch notes and saw the Assassin's changes -- I thought it was a misprint. It's not surprising that the stream of disappointments (for PvPers especially) hasn't and will not cease until someone with an at least basic understanding of PvP begins to call the shots.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Akabeth

[crazyBE]

We’ve made the following changes to the Commando/Mercenary for Game Update 1.3 to improve resource management and simplify stack upkeep for Gunnery/Arsenal specs:

What improved resource management? 1 energy cell with a 50% crit chance for up to every 3 seconds compared to 1 every 6 seconds is definitely not an improvement for arsenal/gunnery.

Makes it so you can rely on it a bit better rather than a "hope I don't get unlucky to not crit 5 times in a row" thing.

So now would be a good time to give commandos more surge and less crit on our gear seeing as how we no longer need it. 500 crit rating isn't very good.

 

As for shadows tanks:

There goes my ending the infernal council with 100% hp and never dropping below 90%

I'll withold my judgement on ops tanking with the nerfs until I try it myself though.

[TSDx]

Lets see. Immortal Juggernaut DPS got a huge hit with the changes to single saber mastery, crushing blow, and backhand. In PvP I won't be able to dish out anything. Rage spec is now completely useless without relics and adrenals in pvp since its purely a burst class with little sustainability.

 

Sorcs got absolutely nothing.

 

Maras/Sents didn't get any long overdue balancing to their ridiculous survivability cooldowns.

 

 

I guess its time to roll a marauder or quit right Bioware?

[krisknife]

Our guild has a Shadow tank who doesn't use the heal in her rotation because she doesn't have to. What BioWare is here stating is that using the Shadow self-heal is the intended design of the class.

 

It sounds to me like some are just not wanting to play the class as it was intended. Adjust your rotation, that simple.

 

the only heal shadows have is when you have shadows stacked enough and use TKT. TKT has a cool down and it's ok in PVP use to restore health, but in PVE it's extremely situational mainly due to it's CD in PVE, hence why your guild's shadow tank doesn't use it in her rotation. relying on TKT to make up for a armor nerf and nerf that same healing skill by 50% doesn't ring any logic to me. The intended design of the class(or at least one of it's primary rolls) was to be a melee tank, being light armor and reducing said armor whilst also reducing the self heals that supposedly make or break the tank effectively removes it from being a tank. Advanced class reset please?

 

We have mediocre damage , mediocre utility and now no roll as a tank either, what exactly are shadows supposed to do after 1.3 besides PVP?

[Creedys]

Tanksassins are being nerfed due to the pvp QQing and now the PvE people will have to suffer for it, reducing the armor % buff from dark charge is a horrible idea.

 

Thats exactly what they do; they ONLY listen to PvPers. Give me a break; if that were the case, this patch would have also seen the nerf of Pyrotech Powertechs/ Assault Specialist Vanguards and Annihilation Marauders/ Watchmen Sentinels (as there was PLENTY of NErf calls for them).

 

Think a little harder before you QQ about a balance to your class that addresses how assassins were the single greatest node capper/defenders in WZs bar none.

 

This was needed.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Creedys

[krisknife]

Thats exactly what they do; they ONLY listen to PvPers. Give me a break; if that were the case, this patch would have also seen the nerf of Pyrotech Powertech/ Assault Specialist Vanguards and Annihilation Marauders/ Watchmen Sentinels.

 

Think a little harder before you QQ about a class balance to your class that addresses how assassins were the single greatest node capper/defender in WZs bar none.

 

This was needed.

 

1.3 will not affect shadows/sins hardly at all in PVP, we will still pwn you:D and ninja caps for everyone

I tested it, it kills pve roll as a tank, pvp is as is, PVP already uses different mechanics from PVE the two aren't connected. This comes from people hating on the fact that BW made a light armor class a TANK. These who complain are hardcore OCD mmo players who expect all games to conform to "certain rules" and light armor tanking is a no no.

Edited June 7, 2012 by krisknife