Class changes and balance in Game Update 1.3

[Arilou_skiff]

I think the armor nerf on Shadows/Sins is a little overkill. They didn't have a problem holding threat before, but they're definitely going to have trouble staying UP now. The healing nerf is definitely justified for PvP, but i'd suggest reverting the armor nerf. A "tank" spec that onloy has 15% more armor than the LIGHTEST armor class (dps sin/sorcerer) doesn't seem right.

 

Dark Charge incrases your armour by 115%, which is more than twice base.

[Phlem]

So i have a 50 sorc healer full WH and a 50 tank assasin mostly WH. In the last patch my sorc got super ****ed and OPs are now incredibly OP healers in pvp. NOW, my tank assasin is also nerfed, and the sorc is still just as bad. The best part, both my characters were biochem. So this means when the patch goes live, bioware will have put me in this situation from "balancing the classes": My sage healer has the worst survivability plus 4 casted heals and only one instant heal (unless you count purge). My tanksin's survivability is also reduced. AND, all of my biochem adrenals are now useless in pvp. OPS, Juggs, and PTs were either buffed or not touched. So now that RATED WARZONES are finally coming out, i have the two worst classes for pvp. I get to reroll an op and jug now, plus getting two new professions. Bioware is forcing me to start over in order to be competitive in Rated warzones, while people who chose FOTM classes like maras and ops are rewarded with two entire patches of being overpowered. I had hope that at least one of my classes would be useful, but it looks now like inquisitors will be absent in a lot of competitive rated warzones. I know i'm QQing, but imagine if you spent days of gameplay getting two classes geared that are now the only two nerfed classes in 1.3. It's like i spent all of my time just to lose to worse pvpers who have an ops healer behind them.

 

You many want to re-read the PTS notes. Ops and Scoundrels got nerfed, no buffs at all. You are confusing ops and scoundrels with snipers and gunslingers.

 

If you want to roll a class that will dominate rated WZ's roll a marauder/sentinals. No nerfs, so they not only have great dps, but they also still have the best defensive cool downs in the game that all stack.

[Rassuro]

Very well written blog post, it's good to get things explained like this. Much appreciated.

 

I also loved the "Class Changes" section in the beginning. It's fantastic to see that you finally realize that your secret metrics are not everything, and that things like the usefulness of off-heals are subjective.

 

The thing that disappoints me though, is that both of my classes seem to have gotten nerfs to their survivability.

Assassins seem to have gotten a pretty big nerf overall, and Operatives a nerf to healing received. Of course I'll wait to see how this end up playing, but it's very worrying to think that TTK might become even shorter in a game where it already is very short (in PVP).

[psi_overtake]

Reading the patch notes for GS/Sniper it reads like the SS tree will require 2 more points put into it. Rapid Fire (previously a 1 point skill) is now 3 points. Did Burst Volley get reduced to a 1 point skill (from 3) and that information was omitted in the notes?

 

That's probably it. Good catch

[Arilou_skiff]

So i have a 50 sorc healer full WH and a 50 tank assasin mostly WH. In the last patch my sorc got super ****ed and OPs are now incredibly OP healers in pvp. NOW, my tank assasin is also nerfed, and the sorc is still just as bad. The best part, both my characters were biochem. So this means when the patch goes live, bioware will have put me in this situation from "balancing the classes": My sage healer has the worst survivability plus 4 casted heals and only one instant heal (unless you count purge). My tanksin's survivability is also reduced. AND, all of my biochem adrenals are now useless in pvp. OPS, Juggs, and PTs were either buffed or not touched. So now that RATED WARZONES are finally coming out, i have the two worst classes for pvp. I get to reroll an op and jug now, plus getting two new professions. Bioware is forcing me to start over in order to be competitive in Rated warzones, while people who chose FOTM classes like maras and ops are rewarded with two entire patches of being overpowered. I had hope that at least one of my classes would be useful, but it looks now like inquisitors will be absent in a lot of competitive rated warzones. I know i'm QQing, but imagine if you spent days of gameplay getting two classes geared that are now the only two nerfed classes in 1.3. It's like i spent all of my time just to lose to worse pvpers who have an ops healer behind them.

 

It's what happens when you play FOTM, 'tis the natural cycle of the MMORPG.

[oredith]

the "philosophy of design" is really great.

 

Can we get a philosophy of design when it comes to the healers?

[Missandei]

I doubt it. Tanks worry about Threat gen, positioning, and proper timing of cooldowns. Making the new AoE smart for them makes sense.

 

DPS on the other hand focus on one thing only, and that's DPS. It's the least mentally taxing role to play in any MMO, and keeping your DPS up without breaking CC is part of your job.

 

At least with these new changes, a tank can much more easily pull packs of mobs away from CC so that the DPS can AoE unhindered.

 

LOL.. What the point to Shadow Tank throw AOE taunt if with nerfed Armor simply only one trash mob can now kill the Tank.. lol..

Tank in light Armor that can talent Armor to slightly more than Sorc Armor..

 

Sorc now can better Tank than so called «Shadow Tank»

 

I presume Bioware is changed all the notes on Shadows so there will be 3 DPS specs in class?

[caravaggio]

That's probably it. Good catch

 

I hope that's the case... it would seem a little strange to be the only tree to require more points to have it in full.

[Docmal]

Hey bioware let me take just a little bit of your lunch.

 

I'll take half your sandwhich, a fourth of your chips and a fourth of your soda. Mmm mmm!

 

Thanks!

 

Don't worry that your still hungry because I said it was just a little bit and it must be true.

[Missandei]

The tank taunt is awesome as we have a shortage of tanks on my server. The level of communication is already bumping up. This is a great direction.

 

lol.. After 1.3 you will see no Shadow Tanks at all.. And if you see one youll be better to take any DPS instead of such «Tank»..

Edited June 6, 2012 by Missandei

[ccmantok]

Its really sad to see the Shadow/Assassin tanks getting nerfed like this. I'm sorry Bioware, you guys really should think about stuff before you speak on them. This change is obviously made for PvP... simple! But you guys "claim" you are trying to bring this spec down to par with the other tanking classes. We raid 3 nights a week, and we would rather have PT's or Juggs over Assassins. Even the 150% armor buff isn't enough to bring them up to par with other tanks... but instead you lower the armor by 35% lol. Really? 35%? And you guys claim this is supposed to be a small nerf?

 

Ok.. so the staple behind the Assassin tanking style to "bring them up to par" with the others tanks is self healing. So what do you guys do? Cut Dark Charge in half 50% (doesn't sound like a small nerf there does it? 50% lol) and reduce Harnessed Darkness to 8% down from 12%.

 

You guys are cowards! You claim this is for PvE but infact it has nothing more to do with than PvP. So you destroy any viability we have to satisfy some kids who can't play in WZ's..

 

lol this is a joke

[Jadescythe]

Regardless of how players may feel (positively or negatively), this post was extremely insightful into how the changes were made and what the decision process was like. I look forward to many more posts like this in all areas of the game to help the players know what is going on in the minds' of the Devs. To anyone who may be reacting overly negative towards the combat changes: play some on the test domain to see how the changes are REALLY affecting the classes. If your thoughts are confirmed, then find a way to resolve the issue without having such a negative impact. A thought out argument with reasonable solutions will certainly have more of an impact on enacting change than a 10 word rage post. The other piece that we'll need are the hard numbers of how the changes are affecting combat, which means we need people playing on the PTS to get a good picture. Get a character copied over and I hope to see everyone enjoying the new patch.

[Rollento]

Its really sad to see the Shadow/Assassin tanks getting nerfed like this. I'm sorry Bioware, you guys really should think about stuff before you speak on them. This change is obviously made for PvP... simple! But you guys "claim" you are trying to bring this spec down to par with the other tanking classes. We raid 3 nights a week, and we would rather have PT's or Juggs over Assassins. Even the 150% armor buff isn't enough to bring them up to par with other tanks... but instead you lower the armor by 35% lol. Really? 35%? And you guys claim this is supposed to be a small nerf?

 

Ok.. so the staple behind the Assassin tanking style to "bring them up to par" with the others tanks is self healing. So what do you guys do? Cut Dark Charge in half 50% (doesn't sound like a small nerf there does it? 50% lol) and reduce Harnessed Darkness to 8% down from 12%.

 

You guys are cowards! You claim this is for PvE but infact it has nothing more to do with than PvP. So you destroy any viability we have to satisfy some kids who can't play in WZ's..

 

lol this is a joke

 

It seems BioWare likes to make sweeping changes. You can't double nerf a class without looking at buffing a similar aspect of the class. This is what breaks them. Shadow Assassin's armor should be reduced, but their heals should be increased or stay the same. It took Blizzard a year or so to balance Death Knights properly as they have similar mechanics of Assassin's/Shadow's. I don't understand why BioWare doesn't do external research on game balances as well.

 

This is the same issue they did with Sorc/Sages, same issue Assassin's/Shadow's will have. And with Pre-Season coming up, some people are not going to be happy.

[xandax]

Bioware's usage of 'small changes' is now similar to their usage of 'coming soon'.

[MrSIlverSurfing]

Tank Assassins needed to be brought inline. I am suprised that Marauders weren't looked into though. On paper it looks like they have done a good job with 1.3. Healers are actually getting an indirect buff with burst changes as well. I'm liking this patch so far, but only time will tell.

[oredith]

Tank Assassins needed to be brought inline. I am suprised that Marauders weren't looked into though. On paper it looks like they have done a good job with 1.3. Healers are actually getting an indirect buff with burst changes as well. I'm liking this patch so far, but only time will tell.

wait, what? where?

 

i've been looking for healer changes, but didn't see any?

[Rollento]

wait, what? where?

 

i've been looking for healer changes, but didn't see any?

 

He's talking about the nerfs to Warzone Adrenals "only reduces damage, doesn't increase it", and BioChem adrenals not working in WZs anymore. Yes, people won't be getting one/two-shotted anymore, but sage/sorc healers will still be interrupted beyond measure, and the buffs to AC's burst will be a lateral nerf/buff whatever you want to call it for sage/sorc healers. In turn we replace one problem with another.

[Exiled-Phoenix]

Dark Charge incrases your armour by 115%, which is more than twice base.

 

Still less then any heavy armored jugger or powertech by atleast 1-2k armor rating.

[ghettogenius]

Love the detailed notes on the update, we need this kind of information at least since we completely lack any metrics (combat log scavenger hunt aside).

 

I never had serious issues on my Jugg holding agro but thats just me. If you say kids are having a hard time tanking then who am I to argue. Though it would seem to me if theyre having trouble taunting/targeting/aoeing then they are still going to have trouble with it after this change. Im interested to see the shadow/assassin tank changes in action, but I am concerned the self healing will in no way make up for the loss of armor. Why not make dark charge (or whatever) scale armor as the player spends ability points in the tank tree? A 31 pt specced shadow/assassin tank needs some strong passive defenses if they are going to operate as a tank (especially in pve).

 

Wont say much for the lack of healer changes except I think that was the right decision. I dont have much luck killing healers even on my GS - I need to totally drop whatever Im doing, dump cooldowns, spend some time in cover to do real damage and even then I will usually run out of energy and interrupts and have to watch them heal through my auto attacks while I wait for the cycle to start over again. I literally did this for 5 mins with a sorc in Hutball yesterday - we had our own little duel right in the center while the battle raged around us. After 5 mins we just looked at each other and went separate ways as we obviously could not kill one another without outside help lol. If it werent for WZ medpacks and a couple of clutch heals I wouldnt even have lasted that long.

 

Despite that I actually think class balance is very good in this game. Which is why from day 1 I have been hooked on pvp here when I was not very interested in it with previous mmos.

[Gamstun]

i guess EA/BW will never learn.

 

how many healers left after the over the top healing nerfs?

 

now they want to make sin tanks run away too....

 

they're killing their own game with these stupid decisions...

[Stratospheric]

they're killing their own game with these stupid decisions...

 

This.

[Ancaglon]

Since my separate thread got removed and I got told to discuss it in this thread ---

 

Are Shadow/Assassin Tanks being relegated to "Offtanks" again?

 

Thinking back to last November or so, we were told it was a "mis-statement" that the Shadow/Assassin tanks were referred to as off-tanks, and that all 3 tank types should be equally viable as main tanks, but the PTS 1.3 changes seem to be aimed at making that "mis-statement" real.

 

I sincerely hope that whoever came up with the changes to Shadow/Assassin tanking has actually played all 3 tank "types" before deciding that these changes are actually viable in PVE. Even as of 1.2, the Light armor tanks are still far more prone to being killed by an unlucky round than their heavy armor counterparts. Additionally, on events like Soa where shields are of no use, or where there are a lot of small attacks that chew through kinetic ward/dark ward very quickly, we are significantly inferior to the other 2 types at equal gear levels.

 

I suspect a big factor driving this is complaints from some in the PVP community, but if you destroy my PVE tanking viability to satisfy them, I may well decide to vote with my wallet. Note: I have played a shadow tank as my main from the day of early access, I am no "FOTM re-roller", and have been waiting patiently on a server that has been practically dead for over 2 months. I am the main tank for my guild, and crippling my tanking capability will affect them as well.

 

TL;DR: You'd better be certain that the Shadow/Assassin changes don't destroy tank viability.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Ancaglon

[Rollento]

Wont say much for the lack of healer changes except I think that was the right decision. I dont have much luck killing healers even on my GS - I need to totally drop whatever Im doing, dump cooldowns, spend some time in cover to do real damage and even then I will usually run out of energy and interrupts and have to watch them heal through my auto attacks while I wait for the cycle to start over again. I literally did this for 5 mins with a sorc in Hutball yesterday - we had our own little duel right in the center while the battle raged around us. After 5 mins we just looked at each other and went separate ways as we obviously could not kill one another without outside help lol. If it werent for WZ medpacks and a couple of clutch heals I wouldnt even have lasted that long.

 

Two words.... "USE INTERRUPTS"

[MrSIlverSurfing]

i guess EA/BW will never learn.

 

how many healers left after the over the top healing nerfs?

 

now they want to make sin tanks run away too....

 

they're killing their own game with these stupid decisions...

 

They still have crazy utility. I'll still be playing my sin.

[Atom_boy]

Just read the new tank Aoe love on the site, juxtaposed on how to take it, being a jugg tank (pardon me if I seem biased) more Aoe threat is a big thumbs up for me, its something we needed to our resume, however putting all the tank classes on a level pegging, kinda means there is no particular role to tanking - correct me if im wrong (which is usually the case) but I have found that jugg tanking is based around single target, PT is more of a mitigation specialist/multi target threat monster and the tankasin is the dodging, healing jack of all trades.

Making the tank classes all being able to deal more threat and generate Aoe threat feels like it might take the 'challenge' of effective tanking away and just make it a simple task.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love tanking, always have, I love being the guy in the front screaming 'hit me with your best shot mister!' But I like that my role, the tank role - is a hard task, making sure none of your friends get hit, and being able to make sure you have the right gear at the time to deal with the pounding you're about to receive. I just don't want my task to become trivialised.

 

Just my two cents. and this is only my opinion, I have no cast iron facts to prove what I have just said, so feel free to educate me.