mamosh Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I think the armor nerf on Shadows/Sins is a little overkill. They didn't have a problem holding threat before, but they're definitely going to have trouble staying UP now. The healing nerf is definitely justified for PvP, but i'd suggest reverting the armor nerf. A "tank" spec that onloy has 15% more armor than the LIGHTEST armor class (dps sin/sorcerer) doesn't seem right. they should of left the armor like it is and make the heal affected by being in pvp like every other heal is problem solved and tank sins can be the same in pve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkiris Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 You designed this game for PVE initially... it's what every MMO company does because PVP can't really get tested until launch. So to heal and DPS those insane bosses you need outrageous high numbered DPS and heals. Oh but that completely breaks PVP!?! And you are completely unwilling to go back and nerf all the mobs and bosses so they don't require such?! No way... Operatives can have 3 or 4 characters on them and spam their heals and laugh!?! Merc healers can pop a shield and return their hp from 1% all the way to full? Nah they aren't overpowered at all. You know exactly what you are doing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dozoku Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) Simple dou you know why people select tankassasin to pvp because deception tree is assassin has the worst dps all other damage class and if you don't have pocket healer in your group you will die easily or you have to be stealth and heal and stealth and heal yourself without killing anyone in war zones I suggest you go target dummies and test deception dps and compare other dps classes any good ranged class will kill you in 2 or 3 shots in warzones Bro i think shadow/assassin just went to being the worst class in the game second to operatives. I honestly don't know if they trolling or their serious. how can you make a class armor raiting from 150% to 115%? seriously we are going to be hit like a truck by marauders, gun slingers, bounty hunters. all they do is listen to cryers which is like 25% of the population, it is truly a red day for the Shadows and they truly going to go from 1.3m players to 40000-60000 players, somewhere along those lines. they simply just made my shadow and operative look trurly disgusting, now no more 1v1 or 3v1. If Yoda was here he would have stated clearly trolling you are, wrong path you have chosen. Listen to the experiances players you have not, fail you have. Edited June 6, 2012 by Dozoku Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRedNalroni Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I dont think this is a major Nerf at all But I do have some queries Im Mainly in Rakata/Blackhole gear and Have 7003 Armour With Dark Charge active (+39.33% Damage Reduction) Now Without it at 3047 Armour its 22% damage reduction. Coming down from +150% to +115% works out at a little over 2% Damage reduction loss. Not sure why if Its only 2% that its worth Nerfing at all.... Multi mob target trash tanks will start taking its toll, making all other Tanks damage mitigation far superior. So Assassins will be the worst of the Trash tankers as we dont get to shield enough of those attacks on multi mob tanking. Because that 2% damage mitigation multiplied by say 5 mobs is taking 10% more damage making it pretty much unhealable at operation level, not that anyone should be taking 5 mobs, but hope this is taken into consideration as a multiple affect from each additional mob being tanked. A Significant difference. Likewise Healing nerfs, renders the healing ability too weak for multiple mob tanking as doesnt displace the increased damage from multi mob tanking. In Operations and Flashpoints, multiple Mob tanking is required. Its not often possible to CC enough of the packs of 7 or 8 in an 8 man Operation. This will mean that Raid leaders will look far more towards the Non Assassin tanks in those operations as the healing will just be too difficult to maintain on an Assassin tank The Healing with the nerf will only compensate for one mob for the increased damage taken from the armour nerf (if always used at 3 stacks maximising uptime which is never always the case with Force regeneration and discounts the reactive necessity of tanking) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexiekaboom Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) You designed this game for PVE initially... it's what every MMO company does because PVP can't really get tested until launch. So to heal and DPS those insane bosses you need outrageous high numbered DPS and heals. Oh but that completely breaks PVP!?! And you are completely unwilling to go back and nerf all the mobs and bosses so they don't require such?! No way... Operatives can have 3 or 4 characters on them and spam their heals and laugh!?! Merc healers can pop a shield and return their hp from 1% all the way to full? Nah they aren't overpowered at all. You know exactly what you are doing... QFT A single healer is balanced so that it can keep a tank alive vs. a mob that has about 2000 to 3000 DPS (a hard mode flash point boss) and can spike 10K or so, all the while healing a group of splash damage. Then you put that same character in PVP vs people who can do 1200 dps and expect everything will just play out. Edited June 6, 2012 by lexiekaboom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vespassian Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Their not skimping or keeping away from healers. They showed what they had so far and wanted to know what we think. They are working on other classes right now because they feel that's the importance. I'm pretty glad their fixing Mercenary/Commando DPS, which was always a pain, and tanking; quite annoying missing AoE's and letting your team get owned. , but yes I do hope that they find a good mechanic for healeres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSaberMaster Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I just have one question. What is the point of having the tanking tree in Shadow if y'all are nerfing HS healing and the combat technique armor bonus? I mean seriously. People complained about the DPS from Shadows/Assassins in PvP. Not the survivability. Reduce our damage that we do to PLAYERS by a certain percentage while in CT and the issue would have been solved. Or how about buffing the other two tress so that not everybody will flock to the tanking tree. Nerfing a class in PvE because of PvP crying has never been good for any game. It didn't work in SWG and it dang well won't work here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzraelCales Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 While I didn't read every post I did notice a lot of complaints about not touching healers. What they could be doing is going ahead with the Tank/Dps changes and see how they work out. After possible needed tweaks and such then they may focus on healers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisblood Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 1. DO YOU THINK 1 MILION DMG DONE BY POWERTECHS ARE FINE IN WZ? CAN U SEE THE CAPS? (PROVES SOON) 2. BIOWARE HAVE A HUGE BUG IN HIS MEMORY AND THAT BUG IS CALLED IMP. STOP MAKING FREE PUBLICITY TO THEM. 3. WHAT ABOUT MARAUDERS/SENTINELS? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Besta Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Why powertech tanks deserved such harsh nerf? it was most useless class befor 1.3 and will be almost not playable 900 crits is So much , compare to 4 k hitting maras bioware , rethink it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Precursor Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Well, I like the changed with making Wither "smart" and the added threat. It will help with my aoe threat. On the other hand, I don't like the changes is Assassin self-healing and armor. Guess it was about time though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venomlash Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Whoa whoa whoa. Can we Gunnery Commandos have our old resource management back? I've been stacking up my crit, and I was getting that free cell pretty much every 3 seconds. (I almost never have to use Hammer Shots, and I only ever run low on energy cells if I want to do a big burst of AoE.) Now that bonus cell regen is going to be cut approximately in half. If it was an issue of nerfing the class, I'd understand it; sometimes we need a nerf. But don't mess up my resource management and then tell me that it's making me tougher. Sure, the current Cell Charger is a bit of a gamble, but it's a gamble that pays off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkoDon Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I doubt it. Tanks worry about Threat gen, positioning, and proper timing of cooldowns. Making the new AoE smart for them makes sense. DPS on the other hand focus on one thing only, and that's DPS. It's the least mentally taxing role to play in any MMO, and keeping your DPS up without breaking CC is part of your job. At least with these new changes, a tank can much more easily pull packs of mobs away from CC so that the DPS can AoE unhindered. At the same time, it's the tanks job to not breakk CC as well. All this does it make it easy for tanks to faceroll now than pay attn just like everyone else has to do. This is gonna make the already easy ops/fps that much more easier. While most the tanks concerns were addressed, i don't remember EVER seeing any tanks complain that they are breaking CC with AoE. Just some fluff that wasn't needed and will prolly be a major game changer in those add friendly boss fights. I for one don't like it. P.S. and already people are crying for healer love. I play a sage healer and have no complaints. As far as I'm concerned they are as powerfull as they need to be and don't need an update. That's just me though, a skilled mmo'r. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZirusZero Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Does anyone notice that the IA looks like a Transformer in the final picture? That helmet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aikiyc Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 QFT A single healer is balanced so that it can keep a tank alive vs. a mob that has about 2000 to 3000 DPS (a hard mode flash point boss) and can spike 10K or so, all the while healing a group of splash damage. Then you put that same character in PVP vs people who can do 1200 dps and expect everything will just play out. I think this is the heart of the problem right here. Healers can manage the CRAZY amounts of damage HM operations throw at single targets and entire 8-16 man groups. Throw that at PvP where the damage is significantly less unless there's 6+ people hitting one target, and the healer is gonna come out on top. If they really want a super tight PvP balance between burst vs healing, they might have to scale down some of damage healers need to manage in operations, then nerf healers to that level, however much or little that may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aikiyc Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 P.S. and already people are crying for healer love. I play a sage healer and have no complaints. As far as I'm concerned they are as powerfull as they need to be and don't need an update. That's just me though, a skilled mmo'r. Agreed. Sage has an awesome healing kit, and tons of utility. With the blanket nerf to burst, their day becomes much brighter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariioow Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) These numbers assume all "self buffs" and similar gear (mostly black hole, some rakata, modded ideally) and are based on characters live on test right now. Shadow: Damage reduction: 37% Shield: 54% Absorb: 43% Defense: 21% (ONLY works on white damage. Boss special attacks have accuracy and hit 100% of the time) Vanguard: Damage reduction: 48% Shield: 65% Absorb: 80% Defense: 13% Bang up job. You can CLEARLY see the shadow is just as good as the heavy armor tank. wow they are going to really suck why did they even said that they were going to be the same as the other tanks? lol this is what they said "However, this armor adjustment was making them passively just as good as the heavy armor tanks," Edited June 6, 2012 by mariioow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarfieldJL Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) I'm going to be completely blunt, first thing is that Tank Guardians do not need a damage nerf, I agree with the threat increase (they are the only tank I have to worry about generating more threat than the tank), but a damage nerf is plain stupidity, Tank Guardians are by and large the absolute worst tank when it comes to dishing out damage as it is. Also, while Vigilence needs some work, Bioware isn't addressing the real problem for Vigilence which is survivability. Yes we could use some moderate damage boosts, but all of that is pointless when we get clobbered by boss AoE's. Vanguards and Shadows have a lot more in the way of ranged capabilities than a Guardian does. Also this song and dance about kiting being a good thing is a load of garbage. Juggernauts and Guardians are the only two classes that can be kited with complete impunity, I believe Sentinel has a speed boost, I know that Consulars do, and Vanguards have quite a few ranged attacks. This talk about Shadows and Assassins no longer being able to tank may be overreacting on people's parts, I think we need some numbers first before making a determination. Particularly since Shadows and Assassins have something called a self-heal, and also dish out more damage than Guardian Tanks. Maybe a healer will have to pay more attention to you and actually have to heal you like Vanguards and Guardians. Also I'm going to point out that Guardians are supposed to be the ones that are skilled in lightsaber combat (as are Sentinels but I digress), so I think we should actually be able to deflect things more easily than some crazed hermit that runs around waving their hands like some wannabe Wizard from WOW. Bioware is using ranged class stats for a Melee class, I think that's the main problem with Guardians right now. Edited June 6, 2012 by GarfieldJL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir-Coffee Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I'm playing a jugg atm. Looks like I will be leveling a marauder in 1.3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRedNalroni Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 This talk about Shadows and Assassins no longer being able to tank may be overreacting on people's parts, I think we need some numbers first before making a determination. Particularly since Shadows and Assassins have something called a self-heal, and also dish out more damage than Guardian Tanks. Maybe a healer will have to pay more attention to you and actually have to heal you like Vanguards and Guardians. Overacting is big style. People are seeing 35% Armour nerfs as huge, but its not a straight 35% more damage. With diminished returns etc its somewhere around 2-5% more damage from hits (4-10% from Crits) Not even sure if Armour rating stacks with Shielded hits, so thats going to reduce the affects of the nerf. I have Health 23262 Armour 7003 (+39.33% with Dark Charge), Without it its 3047 its +22%, taking the change of 17% across that 150%, 115% is going to be 13% leaving a reduction in about 4% (not alot) Damage Reduction 43.33% Defence 20.41% Shield Chance: 44.81% (+64.81% with Dark Ward) Shield Absorbance 60.12% So the Armor Nerf isnt massive on a 1v1 fight, but that multiplies exponentiallly the more mobs your tanking. (3 mobs = 4%x3 (not taking account of crits against you.) Healing wise, the 50% health on Dark charge...works out about 425 down to 212 health every 5 or 6 seconds (due to rotation/global) which although adds up over time as a pretty good trickle of health, it can be compensated by healers quite easily and doesnt break tanking at all for assassins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordalx Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 No change to Sorc/Sage DPS? Which is pathetic compared to other DPS classes, in addition to being the squishiest? Not to mention that Sorc/Sage Heals are broken, pathetic, and crap, compared to other healer classes, also, in addition to being the squishiest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
testcan Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I hope they give up on Assassin changes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariioow Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 No change to Sorc/Sage DPS? Which is pathetic compared to other DPS classes, in addition to being the squishiest? Not to mention that Sorc/Sage Heals are broken, pathetic, and crap, compared to other healer classes, also, in addition to being the squishiest? well i have a sage dps and i do a very good damage on pvp and on pve too actually i don't really have any problems to compare myself to the most dps classes and sage heals are good for pve not for pvp but on pve they are imo the best healers you can even do li hm with a sage healer easier than a comando Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oredith Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I hope they give up on Assassin changes! stop hoping now and save yourself the heart ache. history of patches has not been on your side. Look at the healers and 1.2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariioow Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 is there still a way to be a good shadow tank on 1.3? or all hopes are lost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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