An open letter to Bioware.

[Seaspite]

Hear! Hear!

 

I think you make a good case.

 

One thing in particular you hit on which to me is very important is the lack of continuity in the content e.g. doing a daily flashpoint should earn me a lesser token that I can use toward a gear purchase. I can earn more tokens doing an Operation.. Maybe I can earn others doing another activity - space missions..WOW (Like it or hate it) had this figured out with daily dungeons..

 

My personal favorite thing to do in a MMO is instances; flashpoints. There is zero incentive to do them in this game as it is structured now. I can walk into an Operation and emerge with gear that would take weeks to achieve doing hard modes or as you point out purchase gear that makes other tiers obsolete..

 

In a MMO all of these things operate in three dimensions. The gear system relates to social interaction.. Social interaction relates to content and the gear system.; to PvP. they all have to fit together to make a game work.

 

Right now, the pieces don't fit together well.

 

And for the record; I love the game. I want to keep playing it but I don't want to play it alone.. That's where we are heading.

[siegedeluxe]

Privilege, no. Insight, yes.

 

If I take my car to a garage to be fixed, I'd prefer the mechanic to have worked on a few other cars beforehand, to give them some experience and perspective.

 

However, I apologise if I've irritated you. I'm more familiar with writing formal business cases, where establishing credentials is important before presenting a case, than posting on forums. I accept that may well be overly formal or extremely passe.

 

Ignore the forum tolls, your post was well written.

[Excorsion]

Or for that matter, their jobs. Like that matters to some random forum Joe who is reading this thread.

 

Boy you all will find anything to nitpick at huh?

 

I found the post very nice and complete.. but I guess because you seemed to not want to either read it or you don't agree with the points made by the OP.. you felt the need to lash out... it's like we are back in high school again.... where you are trying to impress others by making someone else look bad. Now a days we call that being a bully.... and cyberbullying is the worst kind.

[JudasPreest]

You know that the people developing this game have actual game design experience. That is what the fanboys are trying to tell the OP. The OP may think that his experience adds merit to his suggestions but he is not a game designer. He is not anything close to being a game designer. If he had made this post and omitted all of his credentials then his post may have been taken a bit more seriously.

 

Apparently then "actual game design experience" means jack **** because this game is a turd. OP doesnt have to be a game designer to have a valid opinion on this. Does one have to be an artist to be an art critic? No. You are full of crap, sir.

[Deewe]

Dear OP,

 

I thought your post well written and I'm pretty sure it will be forwarded to the appropriate devs.

Will they take action accordingly, that's another story.

 

From my past experience in the video game industry and regarding the feedback we get from the devs this game has now two main issues:

 

 

1. A producer that seems clueless about how to deliver and maintain a successful MMO.
   (Never said it was easy though).
   
2. Lead designers that look like they are right and players wrong.
   (Same ol'story).
   

 

 

Top that with a really bad communication/marketing management and you get an explosive cocktail.

 

 

At this point the game needs, in very specific order:

 

1. Server merge / character transfer: Soon™
   
2. Tons of PvE end content (Before raising level cap)
   
3. World PvP
   
4. Graphic engine improvements
   

 

 

Wrap it with a much better communication with the player base.

 

 

Everything else falls behind those elements.

If you don't address them ASAP, the game will keep going down.

It will have a hard time rising up again as the graphics will start looking even more outdated and the game play feels old.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Deewe

[Warbreaker]

I agree with a lot of the points the OP makes and to help garner some interest for the game, I'll post the letter on Google+ to some of the developers so they can see it.

 

I'm sure they're aware of the problems, but for some reason, they aren't really doing anything about it, which really discourages me.

[Thornsbane]

Interesting post, though I find a big problem with it is that most of it is quite subjective.......its just your opinion that certain things are faults.

 

For eg, for 1. and 2. : I know a lot of people still progressing that do flashpoints for gear, who are wearing Tionese until they get something better etc. The nature of a leveling game is that content gets left behind. Start an alt and you will find that all that content becomes relevent again.

 

And your description of the Rakhoul plague as a "mess that left most players confused" or something was just plain untrue. Almost everyone loved it. And because of its huge success, they are of course working on the next one......but in secret.

 

In any case, interesting read, I just got the feeling that in you enthusiasm to 'analyse' the game you made problems where there are none, or minor. Good effort on wanting to point out potential problems though!

[Unkknownsith]

Why do people always feel it's necessary to list the games they played in the past as if that bestows some special sense of privilege or insight into MMOs?

 

Because experience is experience and if you have years playing in the same genre and playing in multiple games in the genre; you tend to get a good feel for what works and doesn't.

 

Just because he doesn't work for EA doesn't mean he can't contribute his years of experience in the mmo world, to tell him to go to hell when he's got years of experience makes you a completely arrogant twit or self absorbed.

 

Either way you squander a valuable resource, that your competition will gladly pick up and say Thank you very much for the wealth you just gave us.

 

[Pcolapat]

Because experience is experience and if you have years playing in the same genre and playing in multiple games in the genre; you tend to get a good feel for what works and doesn't.

 

Just because he doesn't work for EA doesn't mean he can't contribute his years of experience in the mmo world, to tell him to go to hell when he's got years of experience makes you a completely arrogant twit or self absorbed.

 

Either way you squander a valuable resource, that your competition will gladly pick up and say Thank you very much for the wealth you just gave us.

 

 

Nobody says he can't contribute. He can certainly go to college and get a degree in game design and then go get a real job that is in the field of game design. He can then work in that career for many years developing a game and once it is complete he can come on the forums and enjoy reading up on posts that mock his design written by people who have no relevant experience in the genre other than playing the games. That is how he could contribute. Can't wait to see it.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Pcolapat

[TheronFett]

Thanks for the refreshing read, OP. Sometimes it's easy to forget that there are actually educated people on these boards. If everyone were able to complete a sentence and have rational points, the community might have a stronger voice.

[DizzD]

Why do people always feel it's necessary to list the games they played in the past as if that bestows some special sense of privilege or insight into MMOs?

 

Because it does.

[mothear]

An interesting read, some things I agree with and others I don't. The one thing I would mention is PvP because I sometimes struggle to understand you (PvP'ers in general that is).

 

PvP

 

Whilst I do the occasional battleground I just don't understand PvP'ers, what do you actually want?

 

Surely PvP should be about the skill and being rewarded, by winning, not with more commendations so you can get better gear to make it easier for you to beat people you already beat easier. This makes no sense to me. I would suggest all PvP rewards should be cosmetic:-

 

- Specific speeders;

- Uniquely coloured armour, even unique (non-spikey) armour;

- Titles.

- anything else you want, just not superior equipment

 

This prevents people from using PvP gear to do PVE, thus bringing flashpoint running back into the mix, and allows those who wish to PvP to enhance their characters in a more personal way. It also creates a fair playing field for those that want to PvP.

 

Of course this would allow raiders (operators didn't sound right) to rule PvP with the gear they get from operations so why not tag the limit for gear you can use in PvP, set to the same level as FP hard modes, with expertise that only affects PvP and does not work in PVE. Make it purchasable, as it is now so effectively everyone is on an equal playing field.

 

Introduce PvP (possibly in warzones) where if either side is consistently beating the other, that side gets some sort of perk, re-settable on a daily basis e.g.

 

Huttball gives a 5% reduction in all costs (the winners are gambling on the games)

Void star - 5% increase in all income (the winners are making a killing on the technology)

Alderaan - Specific dailies, or quest lines only available to the winners

The new one - who knows - make something up

 

Open world PvP

 

Currently you have a number of areas where you can organise open world PvP, you just chose not to - Ilum and Tatooine spring to mind, why do you not organise these battles?

 

Could it be that people look back to 'the good old days' of world PvP where ganking was a rite of passage and 60-100 aside fought for hours over a sector. Possibly, possibly not, however as many people keep saying MMO's have moved on, PvP is now regulated in warzones, where you get rewards. If you want to fight out in the world organise it, don't rely on devs to spoon feed you because with PvP they can't unless the whole game is designed around it.

 

Is it because the engine won't provide a stable 20/30 a side fight, if so that's great then campaign to get the engine fixed not to spend time on PvP zone

 

Is it because you don't see anyone in open countryside when alone out questing? OK then open up both sides have a system where, similar to 10-49 warzones, if you flag for PvP you are automatically reduced to the level of the zone you are in. This prevents griefing and makes combat a skill thing again. Of course you would have to reduce defending NPC's down to a similar level (perhaps +2 to make it difficult to capture areas without large numbers).

 

Anyway I've rambled on enough, just my $0.02 worth.

Edited June 6, 2012 by mothear

[Lenny]

If SWTOR doesn't adapt, my opinion as a player is that it will spiral to a smaller and smaller player base and then die. Commercially, that may be acceptable to Bioware, but it seems like a missed opportunity to me. SWTOR could relatively easily adapt and maintain an MMO market share, and continue to provide revenue and a fun gaming experience.

 

Good post.

 

In my experience testing WoW and other MMOs, content developers and players of top-tier guilds tend to work together when designing or fixing new raid encounters or PvP balance. Saying this from first-hand experience, players have directly assisted in fixing raid encounters overnight through a simple exchange of ideas via email with lead designers. For anybody to say that, as a player, we don't know what developing a game is like so we shouldn't assist in development at all... is simply ludicrous. Some players have incredibly valuable expertise, we're just not in the games industry for our own various reasons.

 

Now I say this because players seem to have been ignored since last year's beta testing. Innumerable bugs and suggestions were made, but fell on deaf ears. SWTOR's end-game is seriously crippled. Bioware's total lack of experience in this department shows, and they need to find the right people with the skills already acquired to fix and help further develop this game, that means reaching out to their playerbase.

 

The original poster has very well elaborated on just how inexperienced Bioware employees are at designing this genre of video game.

 

My Credentials Here

[Nellsterzzz]

This post was extremely well written, gave constructive criticism, and brought up some excellent points for both flaws and solutions. To be honest I was expecting the post to sound really snarky or something of that nature. Again excellent job OP.

[Perihelion]

This game is bleeding subs left, right and centre. I say lets get rid of these 'experienced' designers and bring in new blood.

[Vinak]

well...I am one of those guys that can claim to have played MMO's even longer than the OP (like it matters) and my personal issues with TOR are as followed.

 

1) the leveling experience has had to be the best I've experienced in an MMO to date. However it is only fun once, maybe twice then it becomes...frankly irritating. Having to listen to the exact same things, responding in (nearly) the exact same way across every character. TOR simply offers very little replay value for me.

 

2) the complete lack of star wars feel to the game. I was expecting to have a more empire vs republic atmosphere to the game. Instead we get space zombies, huttball, empire vs empire, and armor that looks like it's straight from a fantasy rpg (if you are lucky)

 

3) pvp isn't fun anymore. primarily caused by poor balance decisions followed by repetitive content. Unlike just about everybody else, I can still enjoy a huttball game....but even I can get sick of it. The other 3 warzones are completely lackluster. McDonalds pvp just doesn't cut it for me anymore. I want pvp to matter again...like it used to in MMO's of old. And not just a "ranked" version of what we already have. Frontiers please.

 

4) Endgame content is either too short or too easy. Can't decide. My laid back guild could clear out the first two operations in a few hours and the third was close to being on farm status before we fell apart (shortly after patch 1.2)

[FourTwent]

My primary disappointment is the fact that they've allowed servers to decline in activity to the point where much of the content is no longer playable unless you are willing to spend hours waiting or organizing a group.

 

this in INCREDIBLY saddening to me as well

 

it's not like it just started becoming an issue. . .this has been declining for MONTHS. mergers should have been RUSHED and then transfers should have been made available. both should have been developed and setup before ANY other content. I know there's different developers for different aspects of the game, but they need to protect their image and make it look like they're willing to do anything and everything to fix the major issue with the game(which of course is server population making the game unplayable for a huge section of the subscribers)

[FourTwent]

1) the leveling experience has had to be the best I've experienced in an MMO to date. However it is only fun once, maybe twice then it becomes...frankly irritating. Having to listen to the exact same things, responding in (nearly) the exact same way across every character. TOR simply offers very little replay value for me.

 

I see this argument a lot. But no other MMO is offering a better replay experience. Once you read quest text once, you know it. . .once you run a dungeon once, you know it.

 

You can spacebar through the quest conversations in swtor which'll be the exact same as ignoring the quest text in other MMOs.

 

The only thing else you can offer the players is more content in the level 1-50 range(for swtor), which would essentially give them choice, but still eventually you will have gone through all the content. Imagine how much work Bioware would have to do if they gave you 2 planets to choose from each time you finished the last planet. We wouldn't have seen swtor released until 2015 or something if they had to do that.

[Staalker]

this in INCREDIBLY saddening to me as well

 

it's not like it just started becoming an issue. . .this has been declining for MONTHS. mergers should have been RUSHED and then transfers should have been made available. both should have been developed and setup before ANY other content. I know there's different developers for different aspects of the game, but they need to protect their image and make it look like they're willing to do anything and everything to fix the major issue with the game(which of course is server population making the game unplayable for a huge section of the subscribers)

 

Exactly. Even if they had one of the CS guys manually pushing the buttons to move characters around, it was at least something. The worst was that they seemed to be oblivious to it, and many players felt like Bioware had no clue or care...and why stick around with a company like that?

 

well...I am one of those guys that can claim to have played MMO's even longer than the OP (like it matters) and my personal issues with TOR are as followed.

 

1) the leveling experience has had to be the best I've experienced in an MMO to date. However it is only fun once, maybe twice then it becomes...frankly irritating. Having to listen to the exact same things, responding in (nearly) the exact same way across every character. TOR simply offers very little replay value for me.

 

2) the complete lack of star wars feel to the game. I was expecting to have a more empire vs republic atmosphere to the game. Instead we get space zombies, huttball, empire vs empire, and armor that looks like it's straight from a fantasy rpg (if you are lucky)

 

3) pvp isn't fun anymore. primarily caused by poor balance decisions followed by repetitive content. Unlike just about everybody else, I can still enjoy a huttball game....but even I can get sick of it. The other 3 warzones are completely lackluster. McDonalds pvp just doesn't cut it for me anymore. I want pvp to matter again...like it used to in MMO's of old. And not just a "ranked" version of what we already have. Frontiers please.

 

4) Endgame content is either too short or too easy. Can't decide. My laid back guild could clear out the first two operations in a few hours and the third was close to being on farm status before we fell apart (shortly after patch 1.2)

 

I echo your words.

 

The Legacy system is great if you want to play a dozen alts, but like you said...the content is only fun a couple times. Makes leveling an alt boring and tiresome. Makes the Legacy System useless for the majority of players.

 

I don't mind the PvP types, but because it all requires a team effort it does lead to many matches where you are doomed from the start because people are selfish and don't know what TEAM means.

 

My major issue with PvP, and many others I know, is that there is no real reason to do it. The gear is very easy to get now, and once you get it there is little reason to continue to play it. Ranked won't really save this...since the only incentive is a number by your name. Many will jump in for a little while, but it won't take long before it's all played out too.

 

And I agree about the end game. Worst part is, now that there are such low server populations, it's even harder to get a team for end game stuff. So, essentially, all you have to do is HOPE for a PvP match or farm dailies.

 

Or just go play something else...that's what I do. I might, and I stress MIGHT, log in when 1.3 goes live. So far 1.3 doesn't look like it will offer anything for my character. The Legacy stuff won't help me, I have 8 50's already.

[kilosoldier]

You have to laugh at all the ad hominem attacks by the fanobi's instead of directing any responses to the actual topics and points expressed in his post.

 

Fanoboi automated responses usually resort to asking for constructive criticism and when there is constructive criticism they go on to personally attacking the op.

[SuzyKing]

We wouldn't have seen swtor released until 2015 or something if they had to do that.

If it had meant a game that had the meat in it to last 5+ years, I would rather have waited.

 

As it stands, we've got a game that's gonna last, what, 6months, maybe a year, then it'll just have such a small player base that it wont justify the expense of spending a Dev team's time on it.

[OneDon]

If it had meant a game that had the meat in it to last 5+ years, I would rather have waited.

 

As it stands, we've got a game that's gonna last, what, 6months, maybe a year, then it'll just have such a small player base that it wont justify the expense of spending a Dev team's time on it.

 

I disagree.

 

It's an MMO, these games cater for people who enjoy online public/social gaming but who are prepared to pay and contribute to see the game develop. I cannot think of one MMO that was 'finished' when it is was launched. I cannot think of a single MMO that after the 1st year looks like it did at launch.

 

You play to enjoy the game. You pay to see it developed. That's how it works, well for me in anycase.

 

When development goes in a direction I cannot abide or the game comes to the end of its natural life cycle, then I leave.

Edited June 6, 2012 by OneDon

[Ostith]

PvP

 

Whilst I do the occasional battleground I just don't understand PvP'ers, what do you actually want?

 

Surely PvP should be about the skill and being rewarded, by winning, not with more commendations so you can get better gear to make it easier for you to beat people you already beat easier. This makes no sense to me. I would suggest all PvP rewards should be cosmetic:-

 

- Specific speeders;

- Uniquely coloured armour, even unique (non-spikey) armour;

- Titles.

- anything else you want, just not superior equipment

 

 

I couldn't agree more with this.

 

I recently hit 50 and did my first warzones as a level 50. The matches are so all over the place. Sometimes we are so dominated it is ridiculous and sometimes we steam roll the other team. If you ask me neither scenario is what I would call fun. I did manage to get into the best warzone where it was extremely even throughout and ended with one side winning by a slight margin. When I am fighting someone and they can kill me in 3 hits and I've taken them down by only 5% it is not enjoyable. On the other hand, if/when I get fully geared up for pvp I won't enjoy rolling over people simply because I have played more. That is silly.

 

What sport or game involves one side having a significant equipment advantage because they spent more time playing?

 

Some Analogies

 

So you play baseball and the rules are like this. If you practice seven days a week you get baseball gloves and bats to play the game with. If you practice 4 days a week you get baseball gloves and no bats. If you practice less then 4 days a week you have to catch the ball barehanded and you use your feet to hit the 90 mph fastballs. Sounds like a fun game to me!

 

Anyone played poker before and their opponent gets to start each game with four aces? Of course you haven't, that's ridiculous!

 

Both poker and baseball are decided by SKILL. Every player is allowed the same equipment but the superior skilled player wins. Is that not competition? Current warzones as they are are a joke and most of the time don't involve competition. They are decided by who has been playing the game longer or who has more time on their hands to grind out the gear.

 

I like your suggestion of uniquely colored gear. They could give us the empty shells as rewards but without the mods inside.

[Shibata]

There are a couple of fundamental mistakes in the game design at present:

1. Endgame content fun is limited to Battleground PvP and Operations.

2. Scaling the PvP Gear has made PvE content redundant.

 

With less dirct impact, but significant because the design has failed to deliver are the rest of my "top ten":

3. World PvP doesn't work at all

4. The Legacy system fails to offer incentives to play, it's just a money sink

5. Queue times for Battleground PvP content are artificially longer than necessary

6. Token based rewards are all itemised gear, lacking in vanity items which retain value beyond item scaling

7. The experiment with a world event in the Rakghoul Plague had no follow up

8. SWTOR lacks community management tools, encouraging players to use external tools and making it easier for them to migrate to other games

9. Change management between reward systems has been poor and demoralised players

10. Gear frequently fails to match the Star Wars tone

 

If the above aren't clearly being addressed, I expect I'll move on to the next MMO... which would be a shame, because SWTOR has several saving graces which make it a game worth saving, if you can. I hear nothing but praise for the quality and pacing of Operations, the quality and balance of the PvP Battlegrounds, the class skills and talent trees, the great visual design of the game worlds, and the excellent story-driven interface and cut-scenes.

 

So, Bioware, can you maintain that high quality whilst finding someone with the game design skills to deal with the problem areas which undermine them?

 

First off, good post, constructive, exactly what these forums need.

 

While you covered each specific point above in great detail, providing ideas / solutions in the same time, I must add one more point that you probably did not add due to it being so obvious, but even if it is so obvious, it still needs to always be placed in such threads: the population and server number issue. This was by far the biggest problem that makes everything else seem almoust unimportant (they are all important, but population is the biggest imo). The PTS is being opened these days, so probably 1.3 will go live soon, maybe a couple of weeks maybe less, transfers will then come and we will see how everything goes. This is in my opinion the biggest fix to this game so far, the biggest test that this game and it's company will face since launch day. Nothing else is as important at this moment as consolidating the population and the creation, finally, of proper game communities. I am keeping my fingers crossed for the game, for it's players and why not, for the developers, because if they succeed, we get something nice as well: a working MMO in many ways.

 

Because of this issue - let's simply call it "the population issue" - a few things that you point out in your OP were not able to be implemented. Will list them with your numbers:

 

3. World PvP does not work at all - hard for this to happen outside populated servers, tricky for developers to create something meaningful because the populated servers (very few) would take advantage and play the game in the proper way, while underpopulated servers would simply be left out because they cannot experience this. There are already problems to get groups going for PvE or for normal (Wz) PvP to happen, world PvP would simply be another thing they could not do. Now, after the population issue will be fixed (hopefully), I do expect the devs to gives us something in regards to world PvP.

 

5. Queue times for Battleground PvP content are artificially longer than necessary - again, I'm afraid it really depends on the type of server you are on: populated or not. I play on a populated one, we have no big issue with this, during a "normal" play time in peak time, we get something like 12 or so games in a 4-5 hour span, as a 4 man premade (so our queue does take longer due to the match-making system, single queue players or less than 4 get in faster).

 

I fully agree with the rest of your points, I could also add that other issues linked to world PvP, or the lack of it to be more precise, seem to be linked to the game engine and it's limitations, the fact that not so many players can be in the same spot at the same time (without severe problems to various computer specs, be it low end or high end sometimes). This is maybe the second biggest issue (imo) after the population one: game engine issues.

 

Dear Bioware, we are all hoping you fix a lot of things, now let's see your team deliver them to it's player base.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Shibata

[Spatology]

here are some rebuttals:

 

1 & 2. Crafting skills of diffrent varietys are useful, the rest of your point seems to stem from some underlying sentiment that pvp recruit/BM gear is just as good as pve gear and you dont need or have a desire to go after the other stuff. These 2 opinions are incorrect. The content is fun and also repeatable.

 

3. There is nothing wrong with world pvp. Your issue is from being on an unpopulated server. Plenty of pvp goes down on fatman.

 

4. Legacy has some useful stuff for messing around on world bosses etc. Something someone who was looking for fun outside of raiding/pvp i figured would have found. Id also prefer bioware not spend money adding "fluff" content...i dont need stuff to fill up my bags/toolbars.

 

5. same issue as 3. please reffrence it.

 

6. there are currently vanity rewards for hardmode raids. also some vanity speeders. i appreciate Bioware keeping them semi rare. As a reward for dedicated players.

 

7. imo, instead of world events, id appreciate the population issues/lfg tool/ranked pvp were dealt with.

 

8. this is a quality of life issue, fairly well remedied by a guild website outside of game. you are spoiled by wow kind person.

 

9. The diffrent teirs seem to be tuned fine for my guilds progress and preformance level. I'm not sure what you are talking about. Seems to be the issue from 1 and 2 again....

 

10. 1.3 augment tables come out and you can wear whatever you want from the game. There are plenty of options and i think you would be in the minority saying that the armor doesnt look cool/appropriate.