Mistaking OP classes for good players.

[ItGetsAllOver]

First paragraph: Snipers don't have high survivability. They're paper with a few knockbacks. But I agree with the marauders though. I began playing sentinel for roleplay reasons. I took down three people last Voidstar match. Team had opened the door, three stragglers remain. Two were healers, but already at 50% life, they took on me first, I got 'em down by switching targets and confusing themselves on who to heal. Then the powertech tank came. Not much trouble. But the way it ended so quickly, they could have just been baddies. I blew every cooldown I had for that one, too. Used Pacify twice.

 

Second paragraph: Only Immortal Juggernauts have that much control, and they kill you like a bantha waking up. That means, very slowly.

 

Third paragraph: Forum rumors. These classes are not OP. Not IMO at least, but I could be wrong.

 

A well played Sniper has great survivability. With all the stuns, roots, knockbacks, and damage mitigation tools at their disposal, they can last quite a while and unleash a lot of damage. Especially on melee characters who have very little chance of closing to melee range on a Sniper who doesn't want them in melee range.

 

Second, an Immortal Juggernaut in DPS gear does quite a bit of damage, don't be fooled. They also only have one more stun than the other two specs, which doesn't make a huge difference because of resolve. They're also much harder to kill.

 

Thirdly, it's not forum rumors. If you play any low level PvP, you'll notice TONS of JK/SWs, JC/SIs, and IA/Smugglers. It's not just because people all the sudden decided to play the same classes en masse. It happens for a reason, that reason being they're getting stomped consistently at 50 by those classes.

[Invictusthetaru]

I can honestly say Marauders are not that overpowered and INCREDIBLY EASY to peel. The person saying he went from operative to marauder and now rolls people just means he's playing against complete idiots.

 

On my vigilance guardian I can freezing force them for 50 percent movement reduction, force push them, leap to them and have them at 30 percent before they can say "dispatch". Not to mention I have them constantly taunted if I have to target a healer or someone else.

 

No marauder likes to be on the defensive. Not one. They like to be attacking a target or targets and have control of when they want to use their cool downs. Almost 90 percent will auto use commanding awe (aoe stun) or force choke to try and get control back in their favor and recover after getting force pushed, but guess what? That doesn't work against my unremmiting talent. I just eat their stun and eat their faces.

[me_unknown]

actually i also wouldn't advise to nerf sents/maras (at most some minor tweaks). the problem is more within some classes having some weakness.

 

half of the classes are not dead meat to a sent/mara.actually the issue lies within these classes:

 

damage commandos/mercs

damage sages/sorcs (sucka gainst everything but GUNNER/TRACERY commandos/mercs)

damage operatives/scoundrels (suck against everything but sage/sorcs, maybe do well against some others too, not sure)

 

but assa/shadows, guardians/juggs, vanguards/powertech, sents/maras are quite balanced in between them. if you nerf any of them you break that. you just need to make the weak once a bit stronger (not overalls!) in some specific details.

 

but i must say, i have no clue how to fix sages/sorcs without risking turning it vice versa. they are broke by design, either dead meat or overpowered.

[bennyhana]

I like how suddenly the gaming gods have given every bh/trooper and sent/mara "skill" at the game after 1.2.

 

Conversely, those same gaming gods cursed every dps sorc/sage. The game is so balanced according to the OP, I'm puzzled how all these BH's and Mara suddenly learned to play the game, in the space of one patch. It's amazing. Meanwhile, I've become a baddie, as my dps used to smoke bh merc/pt and mara dps, but no longer.

 

All the teams stacking PT and Maras? That's totally a result of skill and teamwork, having nothing to do with this perfectly balanced game. The sudden disappearance of every third sage/sorc on servers is really all about bads leaving the game, they obviously didn't "adapt."

 

I'm sure glad there are posts like the OPs to help clear things up.

 

Or maybe the changes that "buffed" the class require a certain strategy to beat that you may have just not figured out yet. But I forgot if you get beat it must be cause the class is op.

[Bnol]

It is funny how all the people that are defending the current state of Mara/Sent balance ignore the massive group utility they provide, in addition to the superior damage and survivability. No AC brings what a Mara/Sent can bring to the table in that regard. The issue isn't just about 1v1 strength and it shouldn't be, but instead how powerful they are in groups and how powerful they makes groups, even when stacking them.

[bennyhana]

Since the thread started almost all classes have been claimed to be "op". Edited first post.

So many claims that when any certain class beats them 9/10 it must be "op". Keep throwing your flags up you'll get whatever nerf is the flavor of the month, and the cycle will continue. Just know that there is always a strategy to beating any certain class.

[ItGetsAllOver]

Since the thread started almost all classes have been claimed to be "op". Edited first post.

So many claims that when any certain class beats them 9/10 it must be "op". Keep throwing your flags up you'll get whatever nerf is the flavor of the month, and the cycle will continue. Just know that there is always a strategy to beating any certain class.

 

You're right, there is a strategy to beating certain classes. When the strategy is "bring friends" that's when there's a problem.

[RaugMoss]

So you kill players worse than you, and lose to players better than you. It's not the spec it's the person. You actually just admitted it yourself.

 

There is no point in trying to explain things to you, pre-1.2 Juggernauts were fine, I said in my post, care to read?

 

With those damage buffs, extra defensive cd you got and underlying changes that weren't posted in notes, you are definitely overpowered at the moment. I really hope that bioware notices this, but probably they will listen only to marauder whiners in the forums when the only balancing a marauder needs is a 2%-4% toning down in dps at most, not much.

 

Before 1.2, SWTOR's PvP balance was among the best of any MMO I had every played. Some of the specs weren't ideal, but the game was balanced well.

 

Now, it reminds me of a time when people liked to refer to WoW as "World of Meleecraft." There are a few classes who consistently demonstrate higher PvP performance than others.

 

Tend to agree with this guy, though not all melee are that unbalanced imo.

 

All the logical elements to the game, the math, the numbers, the facts, easily indicate that Patch 1.2 has induced the worst class imbalance since the game began.

 

But it's all relative, because what kind of balance does one player mean versus another player. Is 1v1 balance, is 2v2 balance, is 1v2 balance, is team utility balance, etc.

 

A good player can play any class well, but that doesn't mean the class is without fault because a good player rolled a bad player.

 

Team balance, when people get their powertech/vanguard, juggernaut/guardian, tankassassin and mercenary healers geared up will be understood very well, when you get destroyed by their survivability and the damage/utility they put up. There are not much of those around yet, maybe tankassassins are becoming common, but people just couldn't see teams with 3 of one of these classes stacked in a team yet, like they did with sorcerers pre-1.2.

 

And what happened to sorcerers? See my point?

 

I like how suddenly the gaming gods have given every bh/trooper and sent/mara "skill" at the game after 1.2.

 

Conversely, those same gaming gods cursed every dps sorc/sage. The game is so balanced according to the OP, I'm puzzled how all these BH's and Mara suddenly learned to play the game, in the space of one patch. It's amazing. Meanwhile, I've become a baddie, as my dps used to smoke bh merc/pt and mara dps, but no longer.

 

All the teams stacking PT and Maras? That's totally a result of skill and teamwork, having nothing to do with this perfectly balanced game. The sudden disappearance of every third sage/sorc on servers is really all about bads leaving the game, they obviously didn't "adapt."

 

I'm sure glad there are posts like the OPs to help clear things up.

 

Don't forget juggernauts bro

 

TL;DR: Game balance is off the charts at the moment and it can be clearly seen when teams with 2-3 of these OP classes stacked against 2-3 of the UP classes, destroy the UP containing team. For example, a team of 2 mercenary healers performing much better than a team of 2 sorcerer healers in healing is apparent, because you cannot easily kill the mercenaries while sorcerers go down in 2 cds from a focused dps.

[Ahebish]

I find it comical... I call the OP a "REAL" pvp'er. Every other whiny bish is someone the 2nd post on Page 1 refers to.

 

My class got nerf'd 5 times... Now I'm playing someone else's class and guess what? I'm still taking people down who QQ'd about my concealment just as easily and without stealth.

 

What does that prove?

 

It proves I can play any class I want and make it seem overpowered. I've already received several hate tells in the 10-49 bracket on my jug, I've been reported for hacking already, I was destroying people 10+ levels above me, and now I'm starting to gear up my jug for the 50's bracket.

 

I can't wait to hit 6k+ smashes just to piss people off and show them how a "REAL" pvp'er plays their class better than they do.

 

Then after Jug/Guardians get nerf'd into the *******... I'll make a Marauder and repeat the process indefinately.

 

There's a difference between a FOTM player and someone like me. I'm doing it just to be a dick to people. They are doing it because they think it's an I-WIN button until they fight against me and realize it's not the I-WIN button they think it is.

[RaugMoss]

I find it comical... I call the OP a "REAL" pvp'er. Every other whiny bish is someone the 2nd post on Page 1 refers to.

 

My class got nerf'd 5 times... Now I'm playing someone else's class and guess what? I'm still taking people down who QQ'd about my concealment just as easily and without stealth.

 

What does that prove?

 

It proves I can play any class I want and make it seem overpowered. I've already received several hate tells in the 10-49 bracket on my jug, I've been reported for hacking already, I was destroying people 10+ levels above me, and now I'm starting to gear up my jug for the 50's bracket.

 

I can't wait to hit 6k+ smashes just to piss people off and show them how a "REAL" pvp'er plays their class better than they do.

 

Then after Jug/Guardians get nerf'd into the *******... I'll make a Marauder and repeat the process indefinately.

 

There's a difference between a FOTM player and someone like me. I'm doing it just to be a dick to people. They are doing it because they think it's an I-WIN button until they fight against me and realize it's not the I-WIN button they think it is.

 

Good post. But I have to ask, why should you repeat the process indefinitely? Wouldn't you have liked your operative to be in balance and sufficient in utility so that you wouldn't need to open a juggernaut or another class to own and try to show how a good player you are?

[Zaboolina]

The OP is so OP its OP

[DarthLightSide]

Out of all the classes I've played I feel like Sniper/Gunslinger and Marauder/Sentinel are by far the two "OP" PvP ACs..

Sorry GS/Sniper's aren't even in the same league of DPS/utility as Mara/Sent's

Anyone who calls GS/Sniper OP has simply been killed one to many times by one.

[ItGetsAllOver]

Sorry GS/Sniper's aren't even in the same league of DPS/utility as Mara/Sent's

Anyone who calls GS/Sniper OP has simply been killed one to many times by one.

 

No, that comes from playing a Gunslinger. In a one on one situation I can kill almost any AC played by someone of average skill (I consider myself an average player). There are so many defensive tools at the disposal of GS/Snipers, it's not even funny.

 

I'm not saying they're OP by any means, I'm just saying I can understand why people consider them to be OP. A well played Gunslinger/Sniper is a pain in the butt with lots of short defense CDs and a lot of defensive buffs from talents.

[Caelrie]

There's a difference between a FOTM player and someone like me.

Yah, the difference is that they admit it.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Caelrie

[bennyhana]

There is no point in trying to explain things to you, pre-1.2 Juggernauts were fine, I said in my post, care to read?

 

With those damage buffs, extra defensive cd you got and underlying changes that weren't posted in notes, you are definitely overpowered at the moment. I really hope that bioware notices this, but probably they will listen only to marauder whiners in the forums when the only balancing a marauder needs is a 2%-4% toning down in dps at most, not much.

 

 

 

Tend to agree with this guy, though not all melee are that unbalanced imo.

 

 

 

Team balance, when people get their powertech/vanguard, juggernaut/guardian, tankassassin and mercenary healers geared up will be understood very well, when you get destroyed by their survivability and the damage/utility they put up. There are not much of those around yet, maybe tankassassins are becoming common, but people just couldn't see teams with 3 of one of these classes stacked in a team yet, like they did with sorcerers pre-1.2.

 

And what happened to sorcerers? See my point?

 

 

 

Don't forget juggernauts bro

 

TL;DR: Game balance is off the charts at the moment and it can be clearly seen when teams with 2-3 of these OP classes stacked against 2-3 of the UP classes, destroy the UP containing team. For example, a team of 2 mercenary healers performing much better than a team of 2 sorcerer healers in healing is apparent, because you cannot easily kill the mercenaries while sorcerers go down in 2 cds from a focused dps.

 

I'm sorry but I still believe it comes down to a players ability to play that class. You seem to be coming from a perspective that everyone is an absolute professional at playing their class.. Thats most deffinetly not the case. But it's obviously a hard concept for you to grasp.

Edited April 24, 2012 by bennyhana

[criminalheretic]

You're right, there is a strategy to beating certain classes. When the strategy is "bring friends" that's when there's a problem.

 

Not when that strategy is viable. When you are rolling a SUPPORT class that actually makes your friends more powerful. DPS classes, specifically Marauders, do NOT make those around them more powerful. The trade off for having abilities that make others more powerful, is that you are less powerful 1v1, particularly in close quarters.

 

People don't seem to get that. They want to have all their support abilties, all their healing, their AOE, their CC, their stealth, the ability to attack from 30 meters away, AND they still want to win a 1v1 close quarters fight with a class that can't do anything but fight 1v1 close quarters. That's not balance.

 

Make Sent/Maras equal to other classes in a close quarters 1v1 fight, you are not making them balanced, you are making them useless.

 

I keep specifying close quarters because that is relevant. If you insist on standing right by a turret, right in front of a door, with a class that is meant to attack at a distance, and is given abilities that are meant to keep melee dps at a distance, you are not playing your class correctly.

 

Stop saying a melee dps class is OP because NON-melee and non-dps classes aren't as good at melee dps...

[bennyhana]

Not when that strategy is viable. When you are rolling a SUPPORT class that actually makes your friends more powerful. DPS classes, specifically Marauders, do NOT make those around them more powerful. The trade off for having abilities that make others more powerful, is that you are less powerful 1v1, particularly in close quarters.

 

People don't seem to get that. They want to have all their support abilties, all their healing, their AOE, their CC, their stealth, the ability to attack from 30 meters away, AND they still want to win a 1v1 close quarters fight with a class that can't do anything but fight 1v1 close quarters. That's not balance.

 

Make Sent/Maras equal to other classes in a close quarters 1v1 fight, you are not making them balanced, you are making them useless.

 

I keep specifying close quarters because that is relevant. If you insist on standing right by a turret, right in front of a door, with a class that is meant to attack at a distance, and is given abilities that are meant to keep melee dps at a distance, you are not playing your class correctly.

 

Stop saying a melee dps class is OP because NON-melee and non-dps classes aren't as good at melee dps...

I completely agree, good post. It's such a simple concept that I think alot of people have a hard time understanding. Using ranged dps/heals as an example. Being that they want all the strengths of a face to face fighter, plus ranged dps, and the heavy armor survivabilty with ability to aoe, an heal.

[DarthMalesyl]

i believe it's more a flavor of the week kind of thing. Not because of the class being "op" but because somebody "said" they were. And when more people roll one certain class, the more other people fight that class. The more people fight that class, the more they get beat by that class. It's not because they're op it's just the class that 60% of the wz is playing.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^qft

[AzKnc]

Great counter argument, credibility:-99999999999999999999

 

I don't need to counter argue anything as someone who says "pvp in this game is pretty much balanced" is simply living in his/her own magic fairy tale, pointing out that single sentence was more than enough to utterly DESTROY your whole wall of text.

[bennyhana]

I don't need to counter argue anything as someone who says "pvp in this game is pretty much balanced" is simply living in his/her own magic fairy tale, pointing out that single sentence was more than enough to utterly DESTROY your whole wall of text.

 

you say you destroy my wall of text by simply saying that it's "not balanced" with no reasoning? Great counter argument... Bro. Credibility -999999999999999

[Daiyukie]

Apparently just rolling a marauder made me a MUCH better player, because suddenly I'm doing much better than I did on my concealment operative! I mean, if the game is balanced, then a miraculous infusion of spontaneous skill is the only explanation, right?

 

This.

[RaugMoss]

I'm sorry but I still believe it comes down to a players ability to play that class. You seem to be coming from a perspective that everyone is an absolute professional at playing their class.. Thats most deffinetly not the case. But it's obviously a hard concept for you to grasp.

 

My server is a standard/light population server, and I know everyone noteworthy and good and/or geared. I continously said that I did fine against the same juggernauts that I find near impossible to beat after 1.2. But yeah, you have every right to defend your class, no one likes nerfs after all, but with the utility and insane burst, I think it shouldn't be fun for you too. At least, when I did 4k DF AOE then 1.2k x 4 ticks of FL (single target) then a 3.5k CL AOE in a span of 4 cds in voidstar pre 1.2, which melts 3-4 people down when done in unison with a sorcerer friend from vent, I felt sorry for the opposition. Sometimes you relish the challenge, thats the fun, not killing massively in short amounts, either single target or AOE.

 

Not when that strategy is viable. When you are rolling a SUPPORT class that actually makes your friends more powerful. DPS classes, specifically Marauders, do NOT make those around them more powerful. The trade off for having abilities that make others more powerful, is that you are less powerful 1v1, particularly in close quarters.

 

People don't seem to get that. They want to have all their support abilties, all their healing, their AOE, their CC, their stealth, the ability to attack from 30 meters away, AND they still want to win a 1v1 close quarters fight with a class that can't do anything but fight 1v1 close quarters. That's not balance.

 

Make Sent/Maras equal to other classes in a close quarters 1v1 fight, you are not making them balanced, you are making them useless.

 

I keep specifying close quarters because that is relevant. If you insist on standing right by a turret, right in front of a door, with a class that is meant to attack at a distance, and is given abilities that are meant to keep melee dps at a distance, you are not playing your class correctly.

 

Stop saying a melee dps class is OP because NON-melee and non-dps classes aren't as good at melee dps...

 

Although right in some points, you can never call a marauder without utility. Their speed buff can be used in many situations, their dot heals, when 3 annihilations are stacked, heal the whole group by decent amounts, they can root with charge, aoe mess.

 

No War Hero or Conqueror who posts here sits in front of a melee class and cries because of that. Please don't think people are retarded or unable in any way. Please do not refuse to see the insane burst some classes have which take the fun out of pvp, after some gear stacking by these classes, bypass bioware's accuracy gear based metrics, which in my opinion is the gear that's mainly used in balancing the classes.

 

And, try to kite a vengeance juggernaut some time, people tend to look like turret casters against them with that 4 seconds invincibility to every single cc effect after charge except select few escape mechanisms, which can be shrugged off by the damage mitigation of the juggernaut.

[Seriasx]

I can't even play my Sentinel any more, they were OP'd on day 1 and it will only get more disgusting once they all have best in slot gear.

 

One day games will stop giving % absolute values such as 99% dmg reduction moves that will continue breaking the game xpac after xpac until they truly grasp what they did.

 

But hey it was fun proc healing/pot to full while killing people under dmg/cc immunity the first 50ish times, just couldnt enjoy it anymore when people started doing it the same thing while pecking at 1 through 4

[-Eternal-]

Apparently just rolling a marauder made me a MUCH better player, because suddenly I'm doing much better than I did on my concealment operative! I mean, if the game is balanced, then a miraculous infusion of spontaneous skill is the only explanation, right?

 

ROFL...seriously I can drop a doughnut on my keyboard and roll people as a maurader.

[Roycerson]

Apparently just rolling a marauder made me a MUCH better player, because suddenly I'm doing much better than I did on my concealment operative! I mean, if the game is balanced, then a miraculous infusion of spontaneous skill is the only explanation, right?

 

Actually, My gf left her lvl 40 Mercenary and levelled a Marauder to 50. When she went back to her Merc recently, she does twice the numbers she used to. Rolling a maurader made her a MUCH better player.