Ok, now let's evaulate your post and see why you are wrong.

If you don't call this a nerf, you are hopelessly delusional. I guess you forgot the fact assassins have 3-4 stuns to our 1 now? Or herhaps you are forgetting the fact sorcs now become the ONLY class in the game with stun/cc immunity on a CD. Outside of the CC breaker CD. Oh ya they also get an abosrb shield as well on the same stun/cc immunity CD. Oh ya and they get a damage increase on top of it. Maybe you missed the part where gunslingers/snipers get better defensive CD's which they did NOT need. Apparently you didn't read about those changes.... yet. To be blunt however, I have no bleeding heart for operative healers. I'm sorry but you needed the nerf, and pretty much almost anyone agrees with that... maybe the nerf is to harsh, but a nerf was needed none the less.

And now we move on to snipers and gunslingers: Just what that spec needed BETTER defensive cd's. *facepalm*

I'm not sure I should be satisified with the fact they are nerf'ing smash.... but they did none the less. Oh and the nerf to smash is minor... the only thing they changed was the AOE autocrit. It will still autocrit the primary target, but not any secondary targets. Look at what it has cost concealments/scrappers? Some how I don't find it a fair trade... I honestly never had a problem with smash since launch. But I had a problem with the fact concealments/scrappers are first on the chopping block in every single update since launch.

Take a look at the changes for sorcs. So they gave sorcs stun/cc immunity.... just wow. And they increased their damage and DPS on top of it. Lovely change... very well thought out. Keep them coming BW.

At least they let us enjoy it for a week... Which I did personally ask them for. So I can't help but feel partly responsible for it. Sadly, I do not feel responsible for it at all. Wowcarebears 2 Concealment/Scrappers 0 Is this best ouf ot 5, or best out of 3? Is it time to give up or do we keep playing?

You are a baddie, ops overpowered, 11k hit is bs, but it's ok for smash/sins to use, L2P, OPs were fine in PVP before 2.6. Edit: Oops almost forgot they were fine in PVE too. Did I miss anything?

It's ok, exviltrate 30% damage reduction + evasion chance 50%. Shots avoided; Tool placed back in the toolbox.

You know it's ironic you say that. Just ask Bioware how much they love when I post on these forums. You can trace my account to beta... when I started playing concealment. When did you start becoming an expert on the class... 6 months ago when you never posted on the forums at all? So to recap your post; The fact my concealment outgears my Merc and My Jug means I don't know how to play operative.... The fact my Jug is 2 levels lower than my Merc AND my concealment and beats my merc in DPS, and almost ties my concealment in PVP means I don't know how to play Jug. Point taken. *facepalm* Then you compare my statement to PVE which concealments are useless in, suddenly you become an expert with the class? I fail to understand the logic behind your statement. I gues you were absent the day the parsing showed BH's pulling 8000dps pre 2.6? And I guess you were absent during all the nerfs when concealment went from top of the DPS charts to the bottom, suddenly couldn't do Raid content, and were scoffed at in ranked PVP. You fail to understand I could give a flying focke less about PVE... I PVP exclusively... And it's obvious by your ignorant statement you ASSUMED I cared about PVE dps. Yet, I was the loudest voice in support of YOUR PVE content, in addition to PVP. Maybe if you got your head out of your arse long enough and bothered to use the "search" function once in a while you could trace my posts back to launch and see just HOW vocal I was against the nerfs.... and noone supported me including PVE scrubs like you. And I used to do 16man NM Kraga's in PVP gear, because it was to easy with PVE gear. Now post the nerf's everyone is complaining even people who don't play this class are in agreement that this spec is useless.... So suddenly you are right, and many people are wrong because Lethality in PVE is and was always fine? *facepalm* Great arguement. I yield to your superiority in understanding game mechanics on a class you wouldn't know the first thing about. And you suddenly think that showing me a viable lethality in a raid enviornment justifies your superiority over me when I could give 2 sheets less about lethaltiy much less PVE content. And I can't help but laugh at your Lethality comment; Because here's the truth about Lethality from the start; What Concealment used to be is a C6 Corvette, Now it's more of a Honda Civic with fart cannons. Sure they make a lot of noise, but just because it has racing stripes doesn't make it fast. Lethality proves that point time and time again and ever since launch when you see them in Raids, but rarely if ever see a concealment after the nerfs. Now the difference between lethality and concealment is: Lethality is a ford escort and has always BEEN a ford escort. Sure in a turn race they'll beat that C6. (PVE) But head to head in a 1/4 mile you are delusional (PVP)

Not really because the stunlock nerf wasn't a huge effect on the class... HS crit nerf ya tough one, but that wasn't as bad either, because people were using double HS openers, and the 7 sec CD nerf really didn't do much for most people like me... it didn't effect me at all because I never used double HS openers. I think the backstab cd was the heaviest hitter, because it put a gap in our rotations we had to learn to use other skills like explosive probe to get that damage back, but even that wasn't sufficient enough to make a difference. The BS cd nerf gave us a CD WALL that no other class in the game suffers from based on how the energy systems worked. Not to mention the best damage rotation this class had was based on that 9 second CD from BS.

Backstab 9 second CD nerf would be mine.

It's ironic you say this, because right now my vengeance jug on live, almost beats (when I say almost beats I mean there is a 300dps difference between the two classes) my concealment in PVE DPS. My jug has BattleMaster/WH gear & mods. Compared to my concealment in full conquerer gear with higher stats across the board. Oh ya forgot to mention my Jug is only level 53, unlike my concealment which is level 55. Edit: Forgot to also mention my jug beats my level 55 Merc in PVE and PVP dps as well.... and they have similar stats across the board.

Apparently you missed the 21 page thread about it with more views than most of the sticky threads. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=713902 And it's the same arguements from when we got nerf'd the first time.

Ok, I stopped reading here, because nothing else beyond it was worth my effort. So, have you ever used a smash spec in PVE raids before? I have, and I know many other people have... and you know what? They pull one of the top DPS parses as well against oh just about any other DPS spec. So, either you are completely ignorant, or you are a noob... I prefer the ignorance tbh, because at least then I can say you know the truth of the matter as you have played other classes before in a Raid environment like I have. But if you are a noob, then I truely sympathize with your lack of experience in the game and it basically makes your opinion a moot point at best just as much as the person you quoted. The odds of 2 people being complete noobs, is rare, but the odds of 2 people being ignorant is very high.

edit: maybe I misunderstood what you meant by this post. But my suggestion would improve DPS in PVP for lethality obviously, but also benefit lethality in PVE as well. Was that point not conveyed correctly?

I just wanted to let you know right now in the PTS forums people are already crying for a nerf to our class. And the best part is; It's the same rant from 2 years ago. Just thought everyone should know before we get nerf'd again. I only ask that BW let us at least let us enjoy being viable for a week, before they start throwing down the nerfbat for the sake of their wallet... AGAIN. That is all. -Concerned Citizen

Ya sorry used the wrong word choice. But in either case doesn't change the fact the changes are useless for lethality. And yes, in fact lethality IS INDEED a ranged class. And no, I'm not of the opinion lethality has burst damage if at all. I've never seen a lethality operative wow me on damage to be completely blunt about it. Regardless of which class I played. The #1 complaint from any lethality operative is "we need our damage to tick faster" I have seen this countless times over and over and over again. That is a direct complaint about burst damage. And it can't be defined in any other way.

Bioware THEY NEED better TA generation from ranged skills, AND better burst damage. Give them a HUGE passive increase to alacrity such that their dot damage ticks off at an increased rate of 50%. So that 22 second Corrosive dart ticks off in 11 seconds. IN ADDITION to the 25% chance increase to tick twice. Apply this Alacrity effect to ALL of their dots. So they can stack multiple dots on a single target at once, and have it tick off for increased burst damage. Add a minor requirement to have SOME alacrity stacked on gear to maximize dot tick. Bioware give them the ability to become a kite class; That is immobilize immunity generated FROM TA stacks.... up to a maximum of 3 stacks (total of 6 seconds) but this passive ability can repeat the process provided the Lethality expels ALL 3 TA's and starts to build again. Bioware FIX shield probe to actually do something FOR Lethality exclusively.... HIGH IN TECH tree so that healers can't hybrid the advantage of immunity and shield probes. Bioware these changes would be retroactively beneficial to both PVP and PVE. At this point I don't give a crap if you fix shield probe for concealment or medicine but LETHALITY NEEDS IT.

No stealth is the signature move of concealment, since it's the only spec with a damage requirement to do so. HS is worse for any other spec on Agent. And it wouldn't be necessary for you to have IF they fixed shield probe. You missed the rest of my quote, so you want stealth AND everything else I suggested? The changes I suggested will turn you into THE kite class with devistatingly effective dot damage in a short duration. Like I said if you are going to quote me at least READ everything first.... So you understand why I said remove stealth.

I'm talking prior to 1.2.

And this is why I'm of the opinion that alacrity has no place for conealments, but should be the bread and butter for lethality... such that it increases the frequency of dot damage right out of the gate. That is to say, if corrosive dart is fired, it has what a 12-16 second duration... with the right alacrity stack (low rating requirement + a passive increased buff in the expertise) [HIGH in the lethality tech tree to prevent healer exploitation] then that damage ticks off instead of 12-16 seconds, ticks off in 6-8 seconds with the same detrimental effect. ALL of your dot damage should work like this. Remove your ability to stealth. Give your lethality a run speed increase, or immobilize immunity when you proc a "RANGED" TA on dot crits. Or add a passive expertise ability that gives you a 2 second 50% run speed/immunity increase each time you generate a TA. Up to a maximum of 2 or 3 TA's after reaching max you need to expel your TA's to generate that run speed passive immunity + advantage again. Then remove ALL of your melee ability what so ever as it's no longer needed. I am of the opinion you should be able to use exfiltrate as well (an oh sh*t button to get away or chase if need be) Oh and fix Shield Probe to actually do something useful, for BOTH specs, not just lethality, but for concealment as well. But deny healers the increased effectiveness of shield probe for the obvious reason that they are already overpowered and don't need that increase. That is to say make shield probe do EXACTLY what deflect does for a sin, or what saber ward does for a rawriar. And put a restriction of effect on the healers, such as, if ANY heal is received while shield probe is active then it removes shield probe as a recourse effect, and limit that to healers only.

There were 5 HUGE nerfs to concealments/scrappers that destroyed our damage. 1. Acid blade nerf - 50% armor pen to 30% armor pen 2. Hidden Strike nerf - HS does 20% less damage (which I believe they fixed if I remember right) 3. Auto crit on HS stealth nerf - Yes there was actually an autocrit in the past, and BW nerf'd it without telling anyone. Obviously people aren't stupid and noticed it right away. 4. Crit Chance stealth nerf - Again, BW stealth nerfed this specs crit chance a retroactive nerf that effected EVERYTHING we do as a DPS class. And this nerf was done multiple times. 5. Backstab CD Nerf - This nerf is probably the most devistating nerf this spec received. As it introduced a CD wall issue... that never existed before. This forced people to use skills that this class shouldn't need to use. i.e. Explosive probe. Not to mention the energy fix for this spec was weetoddid at best, because we STILL had a CD wall issue we never had before, so what good is better energy when you have no skills to use that energy? The same question can be asked about Alacrity. What good is lowering the GCD when you have no skills you can use anyways? Even in my DPS parses I hit a CD wall at least 2-3 times in 46 seconds before I ran out of energy. Which forced me to use overload shot as a filler. If I had to resort to rifle shot in PVP at point blank range something seriously went wrong, because no other class in the game is that closed off from a CD wall. Just like Lethality/snipers are not a melee class like we are. Give them their dam ranged TA generation and prohibit their melee skills use entirely. That is to say with exception to debilitate, they should not be able to use shiv/etc no more than we should be allowed to use explosive probe/sniper shot. Here's a question to BW: Why not remove ALL ranged ability from concealment/scrappers and give us a melee filler like rifle shot, remove overload shot entirely, and decrease another CD other than backstab, or give a % damage increase to an already usable melee skill as compensation? Meanwhile do the same for lethality/snipers, remove ALL melee abilities with exception to deblitate where applicable, and give them everything they need from melee such as more efficient ranged TA generation on dot crit, or w/e? That is to say change Sniper/Lethality skills such as debilitate to a 10m ranged skill using a pistol in the offhand instead of a virborknife. Meanwhile give concealments/scrappers the dual wield melee option thus 2 virbroknives 1 in each hand. Create a new melee animation for scrapper/concealments... 1. Concealment dual wield virbroknives - melee filler that regens a small amount of energy when used such as 1.5 energy per GCD 2. Scrapper I'm sure they like their pistol shotgun main and offhand weapons.. so just create a melee animation for them, such as pistol whip followed by a right/left hook with the shotgun.... make this their melee filler like rifle shot equivalent that generates 1.5 energy per GCD when used. 3 Snipers/gunslingers - Pistol animaton for deblitate effect that has a 10m range, unlike our debilitate which requires melee range... we don't need that 10m because we have exfiltrate.

I stopped reading here. One question: At what cost? If it's a passive alacrity bonus then so be it. But, we never had alacrity before, and we STILL got raped for being overpowered. Alacrity isn't the answer, and to people who think it is: Stack your alacrity, by all means, but when I kill you in 5-8 hits. Don't say I didn't warn you. For those of us who don't know what a CD Wall is: By definition it means the following: CD Wall - occurs when you fire every skill you have and put your entire toolbar on CD with no skills to use. That is what alacrity will do for you. So while you wait for 5-10 seconds on CD's I'll continue to 5-8 shot you to death before ever hitting a CD wall. As you will NEED to wait for your CD's to equal the burst damage I do with less skills. This class didn't have a CD wall until they nerfed the Backstab CD. Meanwhile you can compare almost every class in the game with that single nerf, and learn that no other class in the game hits a CD wall more often if at all than this class does. That's the difference 12 second backstab CD made vs a 9 second backstab CD. My message to Bioware; Don't insult our intelligence... remove the 1% damage increase from backstab and give us our *********** 9 second CD back on backstab.

Actually PVP rotations are very practical if you know what you are doing. But to be fair, yes 1/2 the time people fly by the seat of their pants given a changing situation that is PVP. Alacrity never was, is or will be a buff for concealments. I have to disagree with people who think so. I will agree that it does help. However I will not agree that it reduces GCD's because WHEN it first came out it did NOT do this. BW fixed it. That being said, Alacrity is a nerf to our damage if taken from the opposite point of view. My point is: IF this class was meant to stack alacrity, we have to sacrifice something for it... and that sacrifice is burst damage, crit chance, or surge rating, and even possibly set bonus all for the sake of a marginally if not negligable difference in sustained dps. So no Alacrity serves no purpose for the concealment DPS spec of this class, with exception to Lethality & Medicine as it effects the rate at which hots & dots proc, and of course casting/channeling time on some skills.

It was said a long time ago closer to launch. The problem with concealment is it has a HUGE learning curve that most people can't fathem. And that is why so many of us were opposed to the nerfs... Because people simply didn't play the class and knew nothing about how hard that learning curve really was. The nerf's compounded that learning curve making it far worse, until the point the nerf's castrated the class from anything useful... i.e. Raids. Ranked PVP. Before all the nerfs the class was MORE than capable of doing both. And people including BW over nerf'd the class because they didn't understand how it works. And people who cried about concealments refused to learn how to fight them. It was easier just to cry for a nerf. I've said this before, and I admit long time ago, I'm not as good as I used to be... but I never lost to my own class in PVP... ever in a 1v1 situation. Because I understood the class that well that I knew how to beat it... I knew how to exploit it's weaknesses before most concealments/scrappers knew what was going on... I would set them up to take a fall before the fight ever started. That experience carried over to my other characters, I would destroy concealments on my PT, and my Jug BEFORE MOST of the nerfs even went through. That is when I realized the issue with the spec wasn't that it was overpowered, but that people didn't understand how to fight the spec.... and that is what lead to the nerfs ultimately. And to be fair, I can justify some of the nerf's about 25% of them, but not all of them and no matter what people tell me I remain of that opinion to this day.