Death of a Tanky-Tank

[tictrictrac]

This thread is based on WoW pvp not TOR pvp.

 

If you ever played a tank on TOR you would find they do not lack in damage Per Second.

 

The grass is always greener...

 

I remember times when Lolknights (with any specc tankable) and Prot/Ret-Hybridpala where op, while Def-Warriors used to be the best Flag-Carriers

And also Bears always did decent dps.

Edited March 21, 2012 by tictrictrac

[Seriasx]

For most of its uses, "not balanced for 1v1" is just a cop-out excuse. A good team can carry a lot of dead weight.

 

Group balance should take priority over 1v1 balance, but implying that 1v1 balance is not significant is just silly.

 

I'm not impying anything, I'm flat out telling you that 1v1 pvp balance could never happen in any mmo with more than 1 class in it.

 

Pvp is balanced for either group or realm based pvp, in every mmo since forever.

[BDutch]

I'm not impying anything, I'm flat out telling you that 1v1 pvp balance could never happen in any mmo with more than 1 class in it.

 

Pvp is balanced for either group or realm based pvp, in every mmo since forever.

 

You're wrong. 1v1 balance impacts tuning all the time, which is why operatives were initially nerfed. It would be easy enough for a team member to peel squishy DPS off of someone that is getting stunlocked, but BW accounted for the situations where that did not happen.

 

Changes happen all the time, and MMOs are in flux until the day they die--I'm not saying things will ever be balanced. I'm just saying that we are not forced into premades to form Voltron in order to accomplish goals. Every class stands alone in some regards.

Edited March 21, 2012 by BDutch

[Broom]

Tanks CAN do a very good deal of damage, most notably PT tanks.

 

However, they are not doing this in tanking gear, PvP or PvE.

 

They are doing this using either Combat Tech as Iron Fist spec, or Eliminator set as the soon-to-be-extinct-again Carolina Parakeet spec.

 

Tanks do not gain a whole lot of benefit from tanking gear in PvP, but their specs allow them to survive things that the dps specs would not. Since they receive the bulk of their defenses from flat mitigation talents and armor, this allows them to use dps gear w/out sacrificing too much.

 

Tanks in dps gear are not only still tanky, but can put out decent pressure when necessary. Obviously it won't be on par w/ pure dps specs, but if they stay alive for a while, they will post finishing numbers similar or better than a lot of dps classes, on top of their protection scores.

 

Much of the powertech tank's specialization points go into shielding, not into raw damage reduction (that's only a few percents, which hardly matter when some DPS crit for over 5K per hit). And shielding frankly doesn't work too well in PVP, regardless of what gear you use. The best skills in the Shield tree, imho, and what makes it worth taking in PVP, are the enhancements to grapple (3 second immobilize) and Jet Charge.

 

So sure, Powertech tanks in DPS gear will have better DPS output than 'pure' tanks, but they also have far fewer hitpoints. Armor values being the same, I figured that the hitpoints, in the end, would serve me better, since I play team support, defender and ball runner, not DPS machine (I can do that on my marauder). More hitpoints means more time playing damage sponge (aka guarding), slightly more durability when running a ball in Huttball, longer solo defense of turrets and doors, and (a tiny bit) more survivability when 4 people try to focus me down for being a pain in the behind (suits me fine if they do, cause our OTHER ball runners will run past right behind their backs).

 

Either way, 'pure' PT tanks, meaning both tank spec and tank gear, cannot expect to beat a pure DPS for damage. And to me, a tank in DPS gear is already a hybridized tank.

[Varicite]

Much of the powertech tank's specialization points go into shielding, not into raw damage reduction (that's only a few percents, which hardly matter when some DPS crit for over 5K per hit). And shielding frankly doesn't work too well in PVP, regardless of what gear you use. The best skills in the Shield tree, imho, and what makes it worth taking in PVP, are the enhancements to grapple (3 second immobilize) and Jet Charge.

 

So sure, Powertech tanks in DPS gear will have better DPS output than 'pure' tanks, but they also have far fewer hitpoints. Armor values being the same, I figured that the hitpoints, in the end, would serve me better, since I play team support, defender and ball runner, not DPS machine (I can do that on my marauder). More hitpoints means more time playing damage sponge (aka guarding), slightly more durability when running a ball in Huttball, longer solo defense of turrets and doors, and (a tiny bit) more survivability when 4 people try to focus me down for being a pain in the behind (suits me fine if they do, cause our OTHER ball runners will run past right behind their backs).

 

Either way, 'pure' PT tanks, meaning both tank spec and tank gear, cannot expect to beat a pure DPS for damage. And to me, a tank in DPS gear is already a hybridized tank.

 

Oh, completely agreed, it's all playstyle preference. I have absolutely no problem w/ tanks playing as proper tanks, instead of tanky dps. I also don't have a problem w/ the other variant, as they are not as high damage as normal dps. It's all about tradeoff.

 

I was simply pointing out that not all tanks play the same way, and that's it's very possible to end games w/ respectable damage done as a tank spec.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Varicite

[olagaton]

They're really not. It's just a matter of actually being social and making a name for yourself through gameplay. Play well and believe it or not people WILL remember you.

premades ARE a luxury because not everyone has consistent playtimes.

[Comfterbilly]

So I rolled a Mara.

 

Wow. I have been playing with a broken class for so long, I literally forgot what it is like to play with a class that works like it is supposed to. Marauder is so much more balanced, I truly can't believe they're going to buff it. The difference between Jugg and Mara functionality is absolutely stunning.

 

Main difference: Mara's offhand holds a saber - a saber that does something. Jugg's offhand holds a shield that does nothing.

 

But the subtle difference in class quality are what make Tank-Jugg and even Smash-Jugg look awful in comparison.

 

Survivability is easily higher. Mara DPS offsets tank defense; and I slice through them because tank defense has no quality to offset high DPS.

 

I can only assume other classes, particularly DPS and heals, don't want tank fixed because they like the easy advantages.

[DaddySU]

Isn't the whole purpose of the "holy trinity" for group play?

 

Seriously, if you are a tank that wants to be able to kill anyone you encounter in a 1v1, then why are you a tank. Roll dps.

 

If you can't tank in PVP, then you either have no support from your team or are doing it wrong.

 

I can duel an OP, that is at least five levels above me and dps. He usually wins but it is just by bit.

 

I can take/mitigate a lot of his damage, he is squishy so my just barely harder then a baby hits can whittle him down.

 

Seems pretty balanced to me.

 

The trinity is meant to make roles so there is a need to group up.

 

It is maddening to hear people complain of the mechanics that essentially boil down to rock paper scissors.

 

When you were five, did you complain that it was not fair that your scissors couldn't beat both rock and paper?

 

Or were you this guy?

 

[Comfterbilly]

Isn't the whole purpose of the "holy trinity" for group play?

 

Seriously, if you are a tank that wants to be able to kill anyone you encounter in a 1v1, then why are you a tank. Roll dps.

 

If you can't tank in PVP, then you either have no support from your team or are doing it wrong.

 

I can duel an OP, that is at least five levels above me and dps. He usually wins but it is just by bit.

 

I can take/mitigate a lot of his damage, he is squishy so my just barely harder then a baby hits can whittle him down.

 

Seems pretty balanced to me.

 

The trinity is meant to make roles so there is a need to group up.

 

It is maddening to hear people complain of the mechanics that essentially boil down to rock paper scissors.

 

When you were five, did you complain that it was not fair that your scissors couldn't beat both rock and paper?

 

Or were you this guy?

 

 

Screw off, play a tank main and see what you think in this game.

 

Sorcs were OP; people complained about sorcs; sorcs needed a nerf; sorcs got a nerf.

 

After the nerf, many of the problems with tanks will be better because squishy classes will get to ride less on healing. They take too much damage and mitigate too little, with no significant difference in HP than a squishy. The sorc nerf will help but it will also make clear how much the tank classes had to ride on their healer's lap through the game.

 

Anyway there is a fine line between having clear roles, and codependency.

 

People complain about their tank because they rolled, got to 50 and expected a 'tank' - you know, absorb damage, hit weak but take a huge beating. Tanks specs are broken; people complain about tanks; tanks need a buff; they will get a buff.

[cschwartzy]

From what I've experienced at 50 pvp, tanks are invaluable in a group setting. With guarding, taunting and cross healing, groups can be almost unkillable.

[Cobb]

From what I've experienced at 50 pvp, tanks are invaluable in a group setting. With guarding, taunting and cross healing, groups can be almost unkillable.

 

Guards and taunts come with the Tank ACs, not with spec or gear.

 

A DPS-specced Jug/Sin/PT in DPS gear can guard and taunt just as effectively as if he were tank-spec'd, while bringing 2x the DPS.

 

Perhaps your statement should be better understood to mean "Tank ACs are invaluable in a group setting." Tank-spec and Tank-gear is just doesn't bring nearly enough to the table to justify the loss of DPS from going DPS spec and gear on the same AC.

[MartyrLXXVII]

Much of the powertech tank's specialization points go into shielding, not into raw damage reduction (that's only a few percents, which hardly matter when some DPS crit for over 5K per hit). And shielding frankly doesn't work too well in PVP, regardless of what gear you use. The best skills in the Shield tree, imho, and what makes it worth taking in PVP, are the enhancements to grapple (3 second immobilize) and Jet Charge.

 

So sure, Powertech tanks in DPS gear will have better DPS output than 'pure' tanks, but they also have far fewer hitpoints. Armor values being the same, I figured that the hitpoints, in the end, would serve me better, since I play team support, defender and ball runner, not DPS machine (I can do that on my marauder). More hitpoints means more time playing damage sponge (aka guarding), slightly more durability when running a ball in Huttball, longer solo defense of turrets and doors, and (a tiny bit) more survivability when 4 people try to focus me down for being a pain in the behind (suits me fine if they do, cause our OTHER ball runners will run past right behind their backs).

 

Either way, 'pure' PT tanks, meaning both tank spec and tank gear, cannot expect to beat a pure DPS for damage. And to me, a tank in DPS gear is already a hybridized tank.

 

More HP is nothing imo, have another 5k HP, you last only a couple more hits. Mitigation is where a tank makes his life. And there is a fair bit of straight mitigation in the PT shield tree. I agree it would be nice if shields and defense worked more consistently. But I do still see quite a few procs for my RP because of all the warrior/knights running around. But there are other times just get crushed or overheated because shield never stops anything.

 

But yeah, I know if I face another PT, any inquisitor or counselor I'm finnet get beat to hell. It is pretty sad when tanks die just as fast as any other class because the whole point of being a tank doesn't do anything.

[YESWEKEN]

I play my role as a tank in warzones, but not in the traditional sense of "tanking" and soaking up damage for my team (except having guard up a lot).

I am basically a debuff / CC machine. Basically trying to be the most annoying element to the other team as possible as long as possible before getting focused by all the DPS's.

 

The trend I found is that when there less competent healers around, the other team's DPS players ignore any more viable threats around and focus the tanks because they are taken down so easily... as well I suppose they should because if I'm left alive they will constantly be AOE'd with whatever I've got on tap.

 

I guess tanks in this game are just meant to be played a different way or maybe they're a little broken. I'm not hardcore enough to make a judgement on that, I just have adapted to make the best with what I have. If they rework how tank stats work and shields, I wouldn't complain, but I'm not sure exactly what needs to be looked at for tanks at this point.

Edited March 26, 2012 by YESWEKEN

[nToxiK]

From what I've experienced at 50 pvp, tanks are invaluable in a group setting. With guarding, taunting and cross healing, groups can be almost unkillable.

 

Guard doesn't work well in PvP unless the tank wants to die really fast.

[ShadowOfVey]

Guard doesn't work well in PvP unless the tank wants to die really fast.

 

do what?

[TDRedmage]

Guard doesn't work well in PvP unless the tank wants to die really fast.

 

False. Get a healer.

[ShadowOfVey]

Guards and taunts come with the Tank ACs, not with spec or gear.

 

A DPS-specced Jug/Sin/PT in DPS gear can guard and taunt just as effectively as if he were tank-spec'd, while bringing 2x the DPS.

 

Perhaps your statement should be better understood to mean "Tank ACs are invaluable in a group setting." Tank-spec and Tank-gear is just doesn't bring nearly enough to the table to justify the loss of DPS from going DPS spec and gear on the same AC.

 

While classes with taunt can use it regardless, Guard requires specific stances (such as assassins needing to be in dark charge). Tank ACs using a DPS spec have talents that need them to be in dps stances that don't have guard available.

[Coramac]

False. Get a healer.

 

 

False. L2AoE.

 

AoE + Guard = Dead tank

[MartyrLXXVII]

While classes with taunt can use it regardless, Guard requires specific stances (such as assassins needing to be in dark charge). Tank ACs using a DPS spec have talents that need them to be in dps stances that don't have guard available.

 

Yep, but they do still have full access to taunts. I do somewhat question if that's a good idea even.

[physiology]

False. L2AoE.

 

AoE + Guard = Dead tank

 

Did you know that you can actually run out of AoE? Crazy I know, very few people actually know about it. I'm writing my thesis about it and hoping to get my Ph.D in the study of "Not being terrible"

[Coramac]

Did you know that you can actually run out of AoE? Crazy I know, very few people actually know about it. I'm writing my thesis about it and hoping to get my Ph.D in the study of "Not being terrible"

 

I'd recommend an undergraduate degree in "being competent" so that you can learn how trivial it is to land AoEs and maybe just land a few yourself.

[EduardoJN]

Here is a brief description of the ingame roles:

 

Tank = Im not going to deal a lot of damage, but i will endure more damage and hopefully harass ppl on a game until backup arrives (if a healer helps me, the better); gonna shield my healer teammate so he can do a better job and try to stay near him; also try to get all the attention on me, especialy if im a JEDI GUARDIAN with my tauting skills, while i get healed and my teammates do damage.

 

Healer = My damage is not great, but i can heal tons, so i guess i will stay back and try to help by.....healing. So my team will have better chances of overcoming the enemy and capping objectives. I can focus on my tank teammates, so they will endure more until ppl arrives to help.

 

DPS = I do a lot of damage, but my heal sucks, cant support anyone with it; my endurance is not the best either, so i better watch when i try to play Conan the Barbarian with 2, 3 ppl, or will go down quickly. I guess i will have to trust my teamates for suport while i beat others.

 

 

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST....in some players heads:

 

Fist of the North Star = I endure anything with my durasteel chest, can auto heal myself with advanced breathing techniques, and also explode heads with one finger and falcon punch the **** outta anyone who crosses my way. If i touch you, youre already dead.

 

AAATATATATATATATATATATATATA!!!!!!!!!

[TDRedmage]

False. L2AoE.

 

AoE + Guard = Dead tank

 

LMFAO

 

AoEs on their own are not enough to kill a tank + other

 

AND if you and your tank are dumb enough to stand in an AoE you deserve what you get.

 

Lrn2 think/play

[PRSturm]

Vanguard SS gets a damage debuff to put on targets with their AoE Explosive Surge and Ion Pulse. It's a 4 percent damage reduction for 15 seconds, which means you just have to AoE Explosive Surge once in an eternity to reduce the damage output of up to 5 enemies. Plus a 5 percent damage mitigation with Guard. Tank mechanics aren't very transparent to fights, and its hard to gauge what you're contributing, cuz sometimes you'll win and sometimes you'll lose, and you don't know if your support tipped the balance.

 

But all in all I love my Vanguard SS.

[AceofHeart]

i am running a full battlemaster survivor geared shadow with my premade, and i promise you that even 5 dps wont kill me or my guarded healer, i am averaging between 60k to 100k protection each match, depends on how fast my premade whipes the other team. i played in few matches where it was premade vs premade and i had 200k+ protection and 500k damage taken. we win vs the other premades almost always unless the other 4 pugs in our team are too undergeared. i am considering a good tank as a player who takes at least twice the damage of his healer or any other player in his team. tanks are perfectly balanced in pvp, as solo we are weak, with a healer we are unstoppable. everyone here who is whining about how fail tanks are, clearly needs some l2p.