Harnessed Darkness\Shadows - The most OP talent in the game

[Scoloplastic]

I don't understand how people are saying the damage is fine because they do high damage on their deception spec, or pyrotech or whatever - those specs are supposed to do high damage - this is a tank spec, it's not supposed to.

 

The damage is nothing to write home about? 10k damage in 4.5 seconds? basically 60%-70% hp for most classes? What was wrong with Operatives doing the same damage in around the same amount of time then (and don't forget they're squishy...)?

 

All I'm seeing is assassins defending their op state at the moment.

 

What about some viable arguements? Are there any drawback whatsoever to this spec? very good damage mitigation and great avoidance, 5 second tech\force immunity, can't be kited and more... The utility is understandable on a tank - but why add the ridiculous amounts of (burst) damage to it?

 

The fact that people are prefering to use this spec for dps in pvp (which can be deferred from them using their DPS gear with it) - means it has the ability to do very competitive damage.

 

 

and no - it doesn't take 40 seconds to set up something like that, i can show you many movies where a sin does it multiple times a fight...

[Vember]

The fact that people are prefering to use this spec for dps in pvp (which can be deferred from them using their DPS gear with it) - means it has the ability to do very competitive damage.

 

People use it because the other two specs fold like wet paper napkins when someone sneezes in their direction. Balance, at least, does a lot more damage than Kinetic...its just not viable in endgame pvp.

 

and no - it doesn't take 40 seconds to set up something like that, i can show you many movies where a sin does it multiple times a fight...

 

Takes about 16 seconds to set up if you don't bother waiting for double strike procs, which results in lower damage. Bear in mind, Project takes half our force bar to cast.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Vember

[Panzerbase]

I don't understand how people are saying the damage is fine because they do high damage on their deception spec, or pyrotech or whatever - those specs are supposed to do high damage - this is a tank spec, it's not supposed to.

 

The damage is nothing to write home about? 10k damage in 4.5 seconds? basically 60%-70% hp for most classes? What was wrong with Operatives doing the same damage in around the same amount of time then (and don't forget they're squishy...)?

 

All I'm seeing is assassins defending their op state at the moment.

 

What about some viable arguements? Are there any drawback whatsoever to this spec? very good damage mitigation and great avoidance, 5 second tech\force immunity, can't be kited and more... The utility is understandable on a tank - but why add the ridiculous amounts of (burst) damage to it?

 

The fact that people are prefering to use this spec for dps in pvp (which can be deferred from them using their DPS gear with it) - means it has the ability to do very competitive damage.

 

 

and no - it doesn't take 40 seconds to set up something like that, i can show you many movies where a sin does it multiple times a fight...

 

Lot's of conjecture and guesswork here but no truth or facts to support them, when you say you can prove something.. you are expected to offer proof, sorry your word is not good enough.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Panzerbase

[neandramathal]

I'm a shadow, and TBH I'm fed up of seeing the amount of tank shadow/sins around lately too. Great for holding a point in Civil War or carrying huttball, but when you need to kill someone quick... well, itd be nice to see the occasional DPS one.

 

It's not the damage that HD/HS does that bugs me, but the heal. With them all running tank gear AND spec, 12% of the HP is about 2.5k. I've tried the spec (altho not in tank gear, dont have any for PvP) and I didnt find it had any burst at all, but pressure damage.. its fcking great.

 

450k damage, 75k healing in the same warzone with only 16k hp... if I had the 23k that tank geared ones did, that healing would be far higher.

 

Worst part of all the tank shadows? They still don't seem to understand protection.

 

EDIT: Hadnt read the last few responses to this thread.

 

I'm not sure if Harnessed shadows are affected by trauma, I never paid enough attention to it in warzones - but on ilum its definitely healing 3% per tick. If it was affected by trauma (does it exist on ilum thats what i cant remember, dont go there much) it would be 2.1%.

 

3 stacks in 6 seconds is very possible. Project/Shock = 1 stack, Wither/Slow Time = 2 stack, the CD on project/shock is 6s... see where I'm going with this? Even without that, particle acceleration/equiv give you a chance to reset your CD on it after using double strike.

 

EDIT2: Still not as retarded as AoE 5k crits that take about 5s to build up on 20s CD....

Edited March 2, 2012 by neandramathal

[Xallionn]

... every green number in the game is hit by trauma.

Which is doubly effective against small heals.

 

This isn't actually true. Take 10 small heals of 100 vs 1 big heal of 1000.

Small heal:

30% of 100 = 70

70 * 10 = 700

 

big heal:

30% of 1000 = 700

[ombraa]

 

and no - it doesn't take 40 seconds to set up something like that, i can show you many movies where a sin does it multiple times a fight...

 

And in all those movies FL with 3 stacks of HD does 8k dmg?

[venjinze]

I'm guessing I'm not the only one that has noticed the Sith Assassins\Jedi Shadows have turned into the most OP class in the game right now - when tank specced.

 

Unlike other heavy tank specs, like juggernauts or powertechs and their mirrors, which balance their survivability with lower damage output - it seems assassin specs mostly just lose a measly 5% to bonus damage from the stance but that's about it.

 

The main reason i'm seeing for this is the harnessed darkness talent - Here we have a talent that allows them to do

amount of damage in 3 seconds

 

If you're too lazy to check the video - it's 8k damage, immediately followed by a 2.2k crit.

 

This is done outside of melee range, is uninterruptable, and takes 6 seconds max to setup to get full stacks - if that's not enough, it also slows you to 50% and the icing on the cake - it also heals them for 12% of their HP (for comparison, powertechs have a 3min CD that heals them for 15% hp over 10 seconds...).

 

You may say its unreliable that all ticks will crit, but with recklessness at only a 1:30 CD and 1:15 with full pvp (not to mention an additional charge that makes sure the shock after the lightning also crits) - an assassin tank can easily get 90% crit chance for the duration of this up almost every fight.

 

Why in the world would a tank spec get access to a talent and burst damage like that? It would make sense to have this on the madness tree - but on their tank tree? why?

 

This reminds me of the (very short) time in WoW that druids bears got overbuffed and were dealing too much damage in bear (tank) form - which brought on a nerf very soon afterwards.

 

Just to remind you - operatives got nerfed for being able to deal this sort of damage situationally - while an assassin can do this potentially every 6 seconds.

 

Nerf incoming soon.

 

 

Flame all you want now...

 

 

The spec is decent but the dmg isn't that great, there isn't much burst. I've used this spec, yes survivability is awesome, but I prefer deception, much faster bursting someone down and keeping them interrupted/stunned.

 

Also, most people that do go the 27/0/14, 27/2/12 etc. route are wearing mostly stalker gear and probably 2 pieces of survivor, reslotted, for the 10second reduction on spike. It's a hybrid spec but if you look at the talents there is a lot of utility and decent dmg, they aren't rolling around in tank gear.

 

Those numbers in the video aren't impressive and very deceiving as the author is clearly in full BM and the person who's getting hit for 1800 a tic I'd bet has very little expetise gear.

[Vember]

This isn't actually true. Take 10 small heals of 100 vs 1 big heal of 1000.

Small heal:

30% of 100 = 70

70 * 10 = 700

 

big heal:

30% of 1000 = 700

 

700 at once isn't any better than 700 over who knows how much time? Besides, I consider 1000 to be a "small heal". Trauma is great for those 3-5k heals that healers put out, but it puts a serious dent in the self healing of everybody else.

[Krytycal]

I don't understand how people are saying the damage is fine because they do high damage on their deception spec, or pyrotech or whatever - those specs are supposed to do high damage - this is a tank spec, it's not supposed to.

 

The damage is nothing to write home about? 10k damage in 4.5 seconds? basically 60%-70% hp for most classes? What was wrong with Operatives doing the same damage in around the same amount of time then (and don't forget they're squishy...)?

 

All I'm seeing is assassins defending their op state at the moment.

 

What about some viable arguements? Are there any drawback whatsoever to this spec? very good damage mitigation and great avoidance, 5 second tech\force immunity, can't be kited and more... The utility is understandable on a tank - but why add the ridiculous amounts of (burst) damage to it?

 

The fact that people are prefering to use this spec for dps in pvp (which can be deferred from them using their DPS gear with it) - means it has the ability to do very competitive damage.

 

 

and no - it doesn't take 40 seconds to set up something like that, i can show you many movies where a sin does it multiple times a fight...

 

I play both sin and pyro PT. I guarantee sins tanks are years behind pyros in terms of damage (as it should be, imo). What you saw in that video is not the norm, which is why I said that many classes are capable of putting out the same amount of damage (if not more) under similar conditions.

 

In reality you can expect your FL to hit between 4-6k, which isn't much considering it takes a considerable amount of time to get 3 HD stacks, and it's a 3 secs channeled spell. I can do as much damage with the parakeet build on my PT using the tanking cylinder.

 

The only reason assassins prefer the tanking tree over the other two trees is because the other two are literally squishier than sorcs.

[wtfnonamefree]

With power adrenal and power relic (and lucky rng ofc) I tick 2.9k ticks on squishies. And I haven't even optimized my mods.

 

Ofc it can be easily countered by knockbacks, stuns or simply LoSing (or running away if channeled w/o recklessnes). On the other hand the assassin probably uses spike and/or shroud before, so it can be cast 'uncounterable' occasionally. It's a matter of situation and thus becomes a strategic gameplay element for both sides.

 

Strong? Certainly. Overpowered? Maybe. I, personally wouldn't go that route...but I'm an Assassin myself, so I might be biased.^^

Edited March 2, 2012 by wtfnonamefree

[Vember]

I'm not sure if Harnessed shadows are affected by trauma, I never paid enough attention to it in warzones -

 

It definitely is.

 

3 stacks in 6 seconds is very possible. Project/Shock = 1 stack, Wither/Slow Time = 2 stack, the CD on project/shock is 6s... see where I'm going with this? Even without that, particle acceleration/equiv give you a chance to reset your CD on it after using double strike.

 

If you open with Force Breach, that goes on a 15 second cooldown...consider gcd and then fire project, there's two stacks...now 3/4 of your force is gone and project is on 6 second cooldown...you have two chances to to get PA before you're out of force, putting up 3 stacks of HS every 6 seconds is impossible.

[Hethroin]

Lot's of conjecture and guesswork here but no truth or facts to support them, when you say you can prove something.. you are expected to offer proof, sorry your word is not good enough.

 

 

You can reliably get a HS-ed TK Throw every 12 seconds if that was what you wanted to do:

 

Math in picture form.

 

Please note the "Saber Strike" and "(had to wait on force)" lines.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Hethroin

[Jagerinho]

400~ life per tick is hardly something to get excited about.

 

Sure it helps but it's not OP, and neither is the damage when you can easily interrupt/stun/LoS

[neandramathal]

If you open with Force Breach, that goes on a 15 second cooldown...consider gcd and then fire project, there's two stacks...now 3/4 of your force is gone and project is on 6 second cooldown...you have two chances to to get PA before you're out of force, putting up 3 stacks of HS every 6 seconds is impossible.

 

Why bring Force Breach into it force breach doesnt give harnessed shadows? SLOW TIME gives harnessed shadows, is on a 7.5(? max 9)s CD, and if project has the shortest CD of the things that grant it.. why wouldnt you use that FIRST so that it would be ready to use again sooner?

 

Who said EVERY 6s. The initial statement was "In 6 seconds".

 

Project

GCD (1.5s)

Slow Time

GCD (3s)

Double Strike -> Particle Acceleration

GCD (4.5s)

Project

GCD (6s)

Telekentic Throw.

 

I'm not going to go into force regeneration, but there are alternatives to 31/0/10 ofc, you could have points in Shadows Respite and have just come out of stealth... there are plenty of options. Unlikley? perhaps. Impossible, no.

[Vember]

Why bring Force Breach into it force breach doesnt give harnessed shadows? SLOW TIME gives harnessed shadows, is on a 7.5(? max 9)s CD, and if project has the shortest CD of the things that grant it.. why wouldnt you use that FIRST so that it would be ready to use again sooner?

 

Who said EVERY 6s. The initial statement was "In 6 seconds".

 

Project

GCD (1.5s)

Slow Time

GCD (3s)

Double Strike -> Particle Acceleration

GCD (4.5s)

Project

GCD (6s)

Telekentic Throw.

 

I'm not going to go into force regeneration, but there are alternatives to 31/0/10 ofc, you could have points in Shadows Respite and have just come out of stealth... there are plenty of options. Unlikley? perhaps. Impossible, no.

 

Yea, i meant Slow Time obviously, and you still can't pull it off in six seconds because you have to take force regeneration into consideration.

[Hethroin]

Why bring Force Breach into it force breach doesnt give harnessed shadows? SLOW TIME gives harnessed shadows, is on a 7.5(? max 9)s CD, and if project has the shortest CD of the things that grant it.. why wouldnt you use that FIRST so that it would be ready to use again sooner?

 

Who said EVERY 6s. The initial statement was "In 6 seconds".

 

Project

GCD (1.5s)

Slow Time

GCD (3s)

Double Strike -> Particle Acceleration

GCD (4.5s)

Project

GCD (6s)

Telekentic Throw.

 

I'm not going to go into force regeneration, but there are alternatives to 31/0/10 ofc, you could have points in Shadows Respite and have just come out of stealth... there are plenty of options. Unlikley? perhaps. Impossible, no.

 

I will repeat:

You can reliably get a HS-ed TK Throw every 12 seconds if that was what you wanted to do:

 

Math in picture form.

 

Please note the "Saber Strike" and "(had to wait on force)" lines.

 

 

Saber Strike is the baseline lolfreedpslol attack that hits fresh 50 sorcs for 900 total when you get crits on all 3 hits.

[xaven_]

I'm guessing I'm not the only one that has noticed the Sith Assassins\Jedi Shadows have turned into the most OP class in the game right now - when tank specced.

 

Unlike other heavy tank specs, like juggernauts or powertechs and their mirrors, which balance their survivability with lower damage output - it seems assassin specs mostly just lose a measly 5% to bonus damage from the stance but that's about it.

 

The main reason i'm seeing for this is the harnessed darkness talent - Here we have a talent that allows them to do

amount of damage in 3 seconds

 

If you're too lazy to check the video - it's 8k damage, immediately followed by a 2.2k crit.

 

This is done outside of melee range, is uninterruptable, and takes 6 seconds max to setup to get full stacks - if that's not enough, it also slows you to 50% and the icing on the cake - it also heals them for 12% of their HP (for comparison, powertechs have a 3min CD that heals them for 15% hp over 10 seconds...).

 

You may say its unreliable that all ticks will crit, but with recklessness at only a 1:30 CD and 1:15 with full pvp (not to mention an additional charge that makes sure the shock after the lightning also crits) - an assassin tank can easily get 90% crit chance for the duration of this up almost every fight.

 

Why in the world would a tank spec get access to a talent and burst damage like that? It would make sense to have this on the madness tree - but on their tank tree? why?

 

This reminds me of the (very short) time in WoW that druids bears got overbuffed and were dealing too much damage in bear (tank) form - which brought on a nerf very soon afterwards.

 

Just to remind you - operatives got nerfed for being able to deal this sort of damage situationally - while an assassin can do this potentially every 6 seconds.

 

Nerf incoming soon.

 

 

Flame all you want now...

 

I marked some stuff here and let me comment the green words: Perception is a weird thing.

[neandramathal]

Still dont see why you'd open with Slow Time if you were wanting to get stacks as soon as possible.

 

Taking my sequence there, if you don't do double strike but instead a saber strike, you won't get particle acceleration but you will regen force (assuming you are NOT using shadows respite as I stated was perfectly reasonable possbility underneath) and your 6th stack will be up when your project/shock hits @ 6seconds.

 

The sequence I posted gives you Telekentic Throw beginning at 6s, if you have force - which will mostly require you to use shadows respite. Whereas swapping out Double strike for saber strike means your project will have to wait 6s for CD, giving you TK throw @ 7.5 or later, but your stacks will still be built AT 6s.

 

With Knetic spec I have 10.4 (not in game atm but I'm pretty sure thats right) force regen per second. Project = 39force if 31/0/10, 45 if not. Slow Time = 30force.

 

With 31/0/10:

 

100 Force

Project -39force = 61 force

1.5s = GCD (1.5s, during which you regen 15.6 force = 66.6 force)

Slow Time -30force = 36.6 force

3s = GCD (1.5s, during which you regen 15.6 force = 52.2 force)

Double Strike -23 force = 29.2 force (particle acceleration)

4.5s = GCD (1.5s, during which you regen 15.6 force again = 44.8 force)

Project -39 force = 5.8 force.

 

Gratz, you have just got off 3 stacks, with the 3rd one being applied at 4.5s. No, you cant use TK throw straight away, but you have your 3 stacks without running out of force which is UNDER what was asked.

 

Or, if you wish to use saber strike instead of double strike and have 3rd stack hitting AT 6s, just add the 23 force from double strike... and you now have 28.8, meaning you have to wait a fraction of a second for your TK throw.

 

Alternatively, you could spec 31/2/8 and just come out of stealth, giving you all the above + another 50% force regen.

 

I may be wrong, and if I am I will admit that I have a flawed understanding of the game mechanics on force regeneration. But this seems right to me. I don't often play kinetic unless I've just been tanking a raid and can't be bothered. I'll be home shortly and check my force regen.

[RefugeASSASSIN]

Every 6 seconds? Come on, one can't put up 3 shocks + force lightning in 6 seconds.. 4 cds and shock is a 6 second cd alone, thrash has 30% to finish the cd of shock but then you would need to throw out some thrash's inbetween the shocks = no way near 6 seconds anyway.. + i think this guy must be using adrenals and relic along with recklessnesss.. ive never seen it tick for 2k lol o0.. but isnt it funny that the tank spec does higher dmg than dps spec ? ^^

 

Wither also proc's harnessed darkness. So in theory you can start with a shock->wither and have 2 in 2 seconds. But yes the 6 second example is still a gross exageration as not everyone is 31 in the Darkness tree for wither.

[neandramathal]

I will repeat:

 

You can reliably get a HS-ed TK Throw every 12 seconds if that was what you wanted to do:.

 

Yes, you can get one EVERY 12s. I however, was saying you can get it up IN SIX SECONDS if you want. From opener to first cast, 6 seconds.

Edited March 2, 2012 by neandramathal

[Anbokr]

Our tank assassins consistently put out a lot more damage than our other tanks--didn't know this was the reason why. Tank specs in this game have three awesome things going for them: guard, taunt, and huttball. There's no need to throw burst in there.

[xaven_]

Our tank assassins consistently put out a lot more damage than our other tanks--didn't know this was the reason why. Tank specs in this game have three awesome things going for them: guard, taunt, and huttball. There's no need to throw burst in there.

 

You might be talking about hybrids vs. full tanks?

Edited March 2, 2012 by xaven_

[cycao]

Our tank assassins consistently put out a lot more damage than our other tanks--didn't know this was the reason why. Tank specs in this game have three awesome things going for them: guard, taunt, and huttball. There's no need to throw burst in there.

 

If i use this ability on someone with full BM i dont get burst, only against under-geared fresh 50's. That and i use defensive relics/adrenals not crit/surge which probably explains why.

[Grubfist]

Also, Recklessness has 2 min cd, 1:30 is only for deep deception builds.

 

Umm...no. That's not true at all.

 

You're thinking of another ability that goes from 2 min to 1:30 in that tree.

 

A kinda bad one for that tree, ironically :X

[Sookster]

Wow, it's darkness assassins now? I take it you haven't faced a deception assassin (my old assassin build) which kills you FASTER with recklessness up.

 

/facepalm.