This game lacks epeen

[Khaylani]

This has happened in every mmorpg which has been released since World of Warcraft, and no matter how unique or close to WoW the game is the "hardcore" come out and start attacking the game in the forums. It's always something that's "not catered for the hardcore community" and which will make them leave the game. Here you complain that the raids are too easy, while (more than likely the same) people complained that Age of Conan was "too grindy" and the raids were too hard, Rift was too easy, STO was retarded, Aion/WAR was too much of a grind etc etc.

 

The conclusion I've come to is that the compaints aren't so much about what they've done "wrong", but that the game isn't World of Warcraft, because they always go back there no matter how "crappy" the post WoW has become...

 

As long as Blizzard can do no wrong everyone else will fail in this group's eyes, no matter what they do...

 

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[Vagessel]

The "hardcore" minority, those who need e peen and self esteem out of obtaining rewards and feelings of superiority out of sitting endless hours playing a computer game

 

Will

Never

Be

Happy

Or

Pleased

 

They will never be satisfied, once metrics are introduced they will always find something to complain about, nerf crusades, what have you.

 

That minority of the eubscriber population generally thrives by alienating the casual playerbase. They don't make community, they make drama, and drive mainstream players away.

 

It's inevitable, because damage meters are coming. But if you think this game's community - specifically the forumgoing one - is bad and unpleasant, it's only going to get worse.

[Wazooty]

The "hardcore" minority, those who need e peen and self esteem out of obtaining rewards and feelings of superiority out of sitting endless hours playing a computer game

 

Will

Never

Be

Happy

Or

Pleased

 

They will never be satisfied, once metrics are introduced they will always find something to complain about, nerf crusades, what have you.

 

That minority of the eubscriber population generally thrives by alienating the casual playerbase. They don't make community, they make drama, and drive mainstream players away.

 

It's inevitable, because damage meters are coming. But if you think this game's community - specifically the forumgoing one - is bad and unpleasant, it's only going to get worse.

 

There

is

absolutely

zero

content

in

this

game

that

is

even

remotely

challenging

[Stupiddrummer]

OP, You're spot on.

 

This game needs a Hand of Rag. I never got one, or had a character that could even use one if i did (druid lol).

 

But man, seeing those few people on my server back in Vanilla with a giant fiery hammer, that, i knew i would never ever get, was still that awesome. I was fine with the fact i couldn't invest the time or man power to get this gear. It didn't stop me from dreaming...

 

the important thing is that it was an item exclusive to top tier players, and it's very existence in the game and the few times i would see someone equipped with it in a capital city, really made my play experience THAT much better.

[CommonKnowledge]

That minority of the eubscriber population generally thrives by alienating the casual playerbase. They don't make community, they make drama, and drive mainstream players away.

 

Because creating player guides, boss tactic videos, optimal talents specs, profession power levelling guides, levelling guides and PUG raids is just one slap in the face after another for casual players.

[Voqar]

im not a hardcore raider, and im not a hardcore PVPer.. and i find the endgame content a easy as pie. i did H EV, and parts of H palace as well as in full champ gear sitting at valor 58.

 

Same.

 

Balance at endgame is completely screwed.

 

It's stupidly easy to get PvP gear at all levels, especially cap. Raids are easier than 4-man hard modes which is not how most people expet it to be. Raids drop a ridiculous amount of loot per boss.

 

I'm not hardcore either - don't have a big enough crew to be, but my crew of 4 is currently done with what we can do. 2 runs of EV and a week or 2 of hard mode 4's and we're done in every slot.

 

I like to alt and don't mind repeating content. Many don't like to alt as much and the fact that even with different storylines you're stuck doing the same linear progression thru planets with every single character is less than thrilling.

 

There's a lot to like about this game but the overall balance is horrible, lack of basic features that have been in MMORPGs for years (target of target, combat log, basic macro support) is kind of inexcusable - without even mentioning addons or UI customization which is common to AAA titles.

 

I think a lot of people are holding TOR to an unrealistically higher standard compared to other MMORPGs at release, but I think what the OP is talking about is a real and serious issue.

 

It's just way too easy to max out at endgame and there are no challenges to keep competitive players engaged.

 

I'm seeing a lot of people vanish from my server too, or they're far less visible. People obviously from more hardcore guilds. Heck, even hardcore GTN lovers are around less.

 

I don't fully get it, since say, a game like WoW, at release, had far less, but maybe because it was such a royal pain to even complete the early blue sets or the fact that we had to work so hard for basic world PvP like SS/TM (on non pvp servers) for lack of BGs that it kept people interested. Dunno.

 

All I can say is that it's just a horrible idea to give people endgame gear with so little challenge involved. It might work for the few truly lazy and suck players but most people are competitive, want to feel like they earn something, and want to have something to work for.

[Andruide]

I remember how I looked up to the successful raiding guilds in WoW back in Burning Crusade. Those who regularely cleared Black Temple or Kelthas... Over time I learned to play and became one of them and eventually joined the most successful raiding guild on the server with server first kills following when WotLK came. Unfortunately there is just no way to create a feeling like this in SWTOR right now, because there is no way to see where other guilds are in progression nor does the gear show much progression because raids are so easy that everyone and their grandmother can do them. That is too bad - I really miss that feeling from WoW, where aspiring to become a raider and kill those big bad bosses myself, was something to look forward to. Now I am in a successful raiding guild in SWTOR, but there just isn't much challenge to be proud of and nothing to show for it. I hope Bioware changes that. MMORPGs should have content that not everyone can complete. That's just how life works.

[Larsenex]

This game has no epeen factor or skill factor and that is why my server is dying fast.

 

We have 4 guilds that have cleared all nightmare 16 man raid content. Countless others doing 8 man.

 

Most pvpers got all the battlemaster gear and I never see them on anymore because they either quit or are waiting for some sort of incentive to log in again.

 

I don't think this game lacked endgame content, it was just way too easy to beat and way too easy to get all the gear in the game, pve and pvp.

 

Whatever hardcore playerbase was/is here needs challenging content and a reason to farm it. Quality pvp players need a competitive situation and not just a stupid RNG grind.

 

1.2 better hurry and it better be incredible, with rated warzones and compelling/challenging content.............but it might already be too late.

 

You can argue all day about game is failing/successful or thriving/dying but I can only tell you what I witness on my own server as someone who cares, and I have seen our pop dwindling, with our hardcore playerbase bleeding out extremely fast.

 

Maybe you want the more hardcore players gone, maybe you dislike them for whatever reason, but the hardcore playerbase is a good base of an MMO, you don't want to lose them.

 

In short, this game needs more epeen and reasons for hardcore players to keep playing.

 

It is a short window to keep us here before we move onto the next big thing or end up going back to MMO's that we came from that are simply doing it better. I was patient, gave game a couple of months, wasn't going to jump ship so fast, but time is running short.

 

You only hear or have bad experiences with the minority of hardcore players. The majority of them are good people who absolutely drive MMO's because they care.

 

They are the ones who create awesome websites with strats and videos for bosses, or the math nerds who theorycraft all the best specs and how to gear and spreadsheets and 3rd party programs to make the game better if you are into that stuff.

 

They are the ones who are comfortable leading PUG raids (ops) in their sparetime or leading rated pvp teams.

 

They are the ones who run smaller dungeon/flashpoint content multiple times looking for specific gear or trying out a new spec or playing alts or maybe even just for fun, while a casual may run it only once just to see it, this makes more groups happening and more often!

 

They are the ones who run the best guilds and push content and develop rivalries and server communities in both PVE and PVP.

 

They are the ones who are very active on the GTN and help drive the server economy.

 

They are the ones willing to test new content on patches on the test servers.

 

You may not want to believe it or care, but losing your hardcore playerbase has a very important trickle down effect on the servers. They are the players that are around the most and you will notice it when they are gone, I already am noticing it and it is not good.

 

Edit: Added one of my other posts to this as I felt it was relevant and helped add to my original point.

 

 

^^^^This is (YOUR) opinion. I disagree with you on all points. The game is fine and my server is growing. I enjoy logging on and look forward. In my opinion I do not think this game is for you and you should go back to whatever you played before.

[wifeaggro]

So the hardcore minority is not playing anymore while the casual majority is enjoying the game?

 

I would wait till the 90 day mark for that declaring that. i believe population theories are in correct . that the majority of casual players are MMO vets. and veteran players can become fastly disenchanted with SWTOR. Im seeing it with my largely working class casual guild that. All say the same thing it lacks alot of true MMO features, the leveling process was very linear and actually works against rerolling on the same faction.

 

I have always felt the Hardcore is the heart beat of a MMO's longevity. If they stop loggining in and find the contetnt dull and easy with in the first 3 weeks as most true hardcores did in SWTOR. then the game has some content issues that the rest will expierence with in the first 90 days. As it stands even 1.2 is pretty superficial as far as a content patch, a new flash point and legacy system is good but TOR seriously need guild lvls and quests to build community involvment.

 

currently TOR feel like a Lobby game at the end game and for a large part of the leveling process.Things that would help is remove the fleet station completely it is a horrible excuse for a social hub. Put all the content access on th major cities, and remove the faction restrictions so we can travel to the other planets . It would remove some of the ultra linear feel TOR has .

[gryhmr]

I raided hardcore progression for years in WoW. I came to SWTOR to have fun. If you want progression raiding and having a part time job within a game then by all means seek a game that offers this. I really like that SWTOR is not like that. I can have end game gear and not have to dedicate full nights to it. Who cares if you have the same saber or title as someone else? It is a casual friendly game, thinking that a mass market triple A MMO is going to cater to the hardcore is ludicrous. Edited February 28, 2012 by gryhmr

[Stupiddrummer]

I raided hardcore progression for years in WoW. I came to SWTOR to have fun. If you want progression raiding and having a part time job within a game then by all means seek a game that offers this. I really like that SWTOR is not like that. I can have end game gear and not have to dedicate full nights to it. Who cares if you have the same saber or title as someone else? It is a casual friendly game, thinking that a mass market triple A MMO is going to cater to the hardcore is ludicrous.

 

i dont think you read the original post.

 

You are right, and this game caters favorably to your demographic. Should it not cater to hardcores as well? The argument is that it currently doesn't. And while a majority of players are the casuals, maintaining a hardcore base is still very important.

 

I don't have a lot of time to play myself, but i am very thankful for the people that play +5 hours a day, because it's safe to say those are the same people maintaining swtorwiki and actually playing on the test realm.

[Dodia]

So the hardcore minority is not playing anymore while the casual majority is enjoying the game?

 

Sorry, but I'm part of the "casual majority" and I'm not enjoying the game either right now, especially when it takes hours to find a group for a flashpoint. This game doesn't exactly cater to the casual crowd, either.

 

As for the OP, I agree with most of what you said, except for the rated warzone bit. I wouldn't have a problem with rated warzones as long as it didn't give better gear than other forms of PvP. If it does, then forget it, I put it in the same bracket as arena, which means no go in this game please and thanks!

[Voqar]

Because creating player guides, boss tactic videos, optimal talents specs, profession power levelling guides, levelling guides and PUG raids is just one slap in the face after another for casual players.

 

That's not the point.

 

The point is that it's way too easy to beat endgame content, there's no challenges in the game, and even if you're ultra casual (and probably won't do that kind of content anyways, period) you want challenges...sometimes...maybe.

 

I see PvP in this game, or the crap that passes for it, as just another ez-mode avenue for useless and lazy soloists to get ez-mode gear for doing nothing. Instance PvP BGs are just a joke, and not something that should yield epic quality gear. Sorry. And not at the pace they do in TOR. Content that involves just showing up and that's basically soloing amongst 7 other people shouldn't yield epics.

 

The main reason warzones are popular in this game is because they yield ultra easy gear and you can do them solo - ie, almost no effort involved. You get put into a group of people you don't care about automatically and you get rewarded whether you win, lose, or don't even try.

 

Raids do require forming up a group but the content isn't that difficult and the amount of loot per boss is just ridiculous. It's almost good that master looting doesn't work correctly in regular raids because it'd double the length of the raid to deal with manually distributing all the loot.

 

4-man can actually be challenging. Or tedius. Endless eternities of pointless trash mixed in with bosses with short enrage timers that drop crap loot that even companions don't need. Wading thru a bunch of crap just to get to the last boss that might drop one thing somebody needs.

 

Balance just isn't there, and neither is challenge.

 

Much of TOR is presented by BW as if "we know best" but it's pretty clear that not only do they not know, but that nobody making decisions at BW has much experience with MMORPG history. Sometimes I wonder if the people who made this game have ever played a MMORPG before.

[Blackardin]

Whatever hardcore playerbase was/is here needs challenging content and a reason to farm it. Quality pvp players need a competitive situation and not just a stupid RNG grind.

 

Hard core players will be the death of any MMORPG. They are a tiny minority that are very loud.

 

No matter what one throws at them, no matter how long it takes, they will beat it in a matter of weeks, rage across the boards, then leave the game.

 

In the meantime, the game is tuned for a group that no longer exist, and away from their main demographic. Bad business move for an RPG. Good for a shooter such as Call of Duty.

[Dayfax]

things that would help is remove the fleet station completely it is a horrible excuse for a social hub. put all the content access on th major cities, and remove the faction restrictions so we can travel to the other planets . It would remove some of the ultra linear feel tor has .

 

yes please yes!

[Quraswren]

I completely and utterly agree. The only qualm that I have with SW:TOR is that it lacks any means of hardcore grinding with a substantive reward.

 

So you have the Nightmare operation title?

 

What server I'd love to come and see it but maybe a title is not substantial enough for you.

 

As far as the Epeen stats thing goes. Thank God it's not there.

 

We clear all normal and HM content as well as 4/10 nightmare and thats a pretty good reward for our efforts.

 

I don't have the title yet but I do plan on getting it and the grind for it is just about right for a newly released MMO.

 

That's not the point.

 

The point is that it's way too easy to beat endgame content, there's no challenges in the game, and even if you're ultra casual (and probably won't do that kind of content anyways, period) you want challenges...sometimes...maybe.

 

 

One of these days I hope we have the ability to ask for proof and it has to be shown to claims of how easy things are.

 

As in, Have you really beat all end game content or are you one of those players that beat it on normal and consider yourself done?

Edited February 28, 2012 by Quraswren

[Blackardin]

The point is that it's way too easy to beat endgame content, there's no challenges in the game, and even if you're ultra casual (and probably won't do that kind of content anyways, period) you want challenges...sometimes...maybe.

 

This is conjecture and clearly a logical fallacy that proceeds from an assumed false premise.

 

I've lead casual raids, guilds for over 15 years through 4 games.

 

Casuals do raid. Casuals do not want to min max or spend more time on prep then on actual content. They seek to log on, enjoy time with friends, kill a few bosses, get an item or two, log off.

 

They do not seek to beat their heads off the wall for 10 weeks trying to kill an overtuned, unforgiving event so as to be one of few with special gear. This game is tuned perfectly for the casual player. There is a range of challange that fits them perfectly, with the extreme end being nightmare.

 

This company hit their primary demographic perfectly.

[lineschmidt]

Dear OP

 

No one except children cares about your "achievements" in a video game. True story

[Blotter]

So the hardcore minority is not playing anymore while the casual majority is enjoying the game?

 

I, for one, am SHOCKED!!!

[Acri]

People are always going to complain when something is unobtainable for them because they lack the time or skill (what little it takes). I completed Nightmare 16 EV in under 2 hours a month ago, in two different lockouts, and didn't get the title either time.

 

It was the same idea in WoW. Normal for the casual players who complained they didn't get to see the content, heroic for the hardcore who complained that things weren't challenging enough. Then casuals complained they couldn't see heroic mode content and that started to get nerfs too.

 

I sort of just started to lose the will to log on when there's no accomplishment to be had in the game. When there's no fun accomplishments, when the game is too easy, I don't see the reason to keep playing.

 

But I'm patient. We'll see where the game goes.

 

Edit: As far as other people caring about my achievements, I couldn't care less if you do. I want to be able to care about my achievements, but there is nothing challenging enough to feel excited about right now.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Acri

[Uruare]

Good. E-peen crap should die in a fire and be forgotten with all due haste like the adolescent idiocy it is accurately namesaked after.

 

There do exist other ways to generate motivation and interest. Reliance upon childish envy as the backbone of anything is quite possibly the root of why these game communities tend to wind up toxic poo-slinging hives of glorified stupidity and arrogant me-me-me'ism.

 

And I, for one, think we could certainly afford, in these modern times, to at least try to appeal to a higher standard of stupidity than that of celebrated e-peen rubbish since outright appeals to reason and mutual fun-having are probably right out.

[wifeaggro]

i dont think you read the original post.

 

You are right, and this game caters favorably to your demographic. Should it not cater to hardcores as well? The argument is that it currently doesn't. And while a majority of players are the casuals, maintaining a hardcore base is still very important.

 

I don't have a lot of time to play myself, but i am very thankful for the people that play +5 hours a day, because it's safe to say those are the same people maintaining swtorwiki and actually playing on the test realm.

 

I am a casual i work 50 plus hours a week have 3 children. I am maxed lvl have full set of columi and maxed crafting twice. End game seriously lacks. It s not because raiding is too easy though it is very accessible for us . its because there is little reason to do it. food stamp itemization (set gear token is a joke), no sense of uniqueness or even goals to strive for.the content just lacks period. No guild lvls, no guild perks,no class alternate advancement to make your cookie cutter have at least a little variation from the other guy.The game just feels bland, Epic long quests for class specfic items. A whole lot is missing from this game in terms of MMO features. the whole game promotes a single player expierence all the way through to lvl 50. then it lobbies you off into the fleet for 4 , 8 , 16 man instances.

 

TOR should be listening to those hard core players they know MMO mechanics and features better then devolpers. Hardcore is the heart beat of the any MMO's longevity.Hopefully they can doudle the size of endgame features by the 6 month mark.I predict TOR will have the largest Burn off of any MMO released( thats does not mean it wont be successful ,even if it only retains 40 percent in 90 days it will have 750k subs which is highly profitable.)1.2 will help its retention ive already unsubbed but if guild says the legacy system holds promise ill sub for another month . but currently the game is pretty archaic.

[Matte_Black]

This game has no epeen factor or skill factor and that is why my server is dying fast.

 

Epeen can be a double-edged sword:sul_confused:, but I'd agree and am pretty sure BioWare tried to avoid alot of the competitive, esport elements when designing this game. I personally rather stick to story-driven choices and avoid all the chest thumping.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Mephismo]

People are always going to complain when something is unobtainable for them because they lack the time or skill (what little it takes). I completed Nightmare 16 EV in under 2 hours a month ago, in two different lockouts, and didn't get the title either time.

 

It was the same idea in WoW. Normal for the casual players who complained they didn't get to see the content, heroic for the hardcore who complained that things weren't challenging enough. Then casuals complained they couldn't see heroic mode content and that started to get nerfs too.

Sorry but this is utter rubbish

Blizz have all the stats they check progression.

They wait a while, then they nerf content if they see players hitting a brick wall.

Not because players whine on the forums.

[Agenteusa]

This game is not versioned towards endgame raiding. Bioware said that. If you fully expect very hard content I doubt you will ever find it (only if BW sells their soul) in SWTOR as they mentioned they wanted people to experience everything the game has to offer.

 

I was a dedicated raider myself but I actually like the fact (like someone mentioned) that I don´t have to approach it like a job.

 

The game has nitid flaws no doubt about that but I´m not going to mention it again.

 

There's a lot to like about this game but the overall balance is horrible, lack of basic features that have been in MMORPGs for years (target of target, combat log, basic macro support) is kind of inexcusable

 

So you complain the game is easy but you infer that basic macro support should be ingame. Might I ask why?

 

Cause macros are the easy mode of mmo´s tbh and I´m more than happy that they didn´t implement it cause then you will be as good as your hardware allows it (not mentioning people with programming skills have advantages).

 

Basically things that turn a game into easy mode (I agree it is easy atm so it would make it even easier) are passable. Manage that yourself. You don´t need stuff telling you what to do. You lost aggro on a mob? Figure it out yourself, don´t ask the game to do it for you.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Agenteusa