This game lacks epeen

[archifikoss]

So, you must also be a welfare person. I mean, obviously you don't think anyone should have to earn anything. You just sit there collecting money from the government that the rest of us working people pay taxes for?

 

Fine, it's not fair. That work for you? I'll start to whine that it isn't fair that I learned strategies and had repair bills to get my gear.

 

You want free gear, maybe we should ask BW/EA for special servers just for you special people.

 

Actually I'm not, I hate end-game with a passion so gear isn't even an issue for me as I turn to leveling alts when my main hits max level. But good job at assuming stuff about me

 

And it's not real life so I couldn't care less about "earning" or "working". It's a video game, it's meant to be a fun, recreational activity and not a job. And since I am not affected in real life by "welfare epics" or whatever and neither is anyone with a healthy attitude towards gaming, I don't care how you got your gear. As long as you're a decent person and don't spoil my gaming sessions.

 

I'm not against challenging game content or "hardcore" players. I just don't see the point in getting so riled up about something so trivial.

[Vyvian]

Simple, they largely have no need for more difficult content. They'd rather see new content, bug fixes, new features that enhance their play over harder playthroughs and add-on style features that help boil a good story-based game down to numbers they aren't all that interested in having quantified.

 

Don't you think the hard core players also want to see the bugs fixed? Hard core players don't want new content either?

 

Did you not type that out properly?

 

All of those things you claim are desired by each type of player. There's no reason for the casual players to cry about hard core players wanting more of a challenge.

[Ansultares]

If they never put in a single raid instance and devoted the same energy to Heroic range stuff instead, it'd probably get a few orders of magnitude higher use out of the same dev cycles.

But group content is no more what casuals are looking for than raiding is.

[Eileithia]

On XP: I do not, myself, perceive a problem with this. If you do most of the content available to you while leveling, you'll overlevel. I cannot see that as a poor thing, as it, by definitions, means that you do not have to do everything on every single character in a game that strongly encourages you to alt every single time.

 

ou've got some options. Not many yet, but some, and hopefully many, many more with time.

 

With regard to XP Gain. The leveling curve in this game is WAY too fast with compared to the amount of end-game content available. Yes, there is much more incentive in this game to play alts (Separate story lines etc) than say Rift, or WoW, or [insert Random MMO] but that's where it stops.

 

With there not being enough end-game content to play for the "Hardcores" the leveling curve should be slowed down. I'm not saying to the rate of EVE, or EQ1 by any means but a minor (10-20%) reduction in XP gain would have added a week or two before raiding guilds had 50's in the numbers required to start taking on end-game FP's/Raids.

 

Even without skipping dialogue, as somone who has ~3-4 hours a day of playtime (by no means hardcore) you reach level cap in under 1 month.

 

I guess my point being, as a developer, BW needs to walk the line of enough grind to be able to frequently add content for hardcores, but not so slow that casuals end up frustrated. Unfortunately, with how insanely fast you CAN level cap a character in this game, with no solid long-term end-game a lot of hardcores have already left before the 2nd month subscription came due.

 

On Gear: Deterministic methods of acquisition lend a sense of control to the playing experience, and whether or not that appeals to you personally, it's definitively and absolutely appealing to the majorities of human consumers (globally) as that existed in 2011.

 

People like to feel like they have some control, even if they, in fact, have none.

 

With this system, the illusion of determinism exists for the most part (you don't get to choose altogether what you can turn a token in for), but there's some actual control there on many gear pieces as well (you can usually select from several differently statted versions of a gear piece).

 

It's a good balance between the time dillation and prolongment of content lifespan brought on by randomization and appealing to the very human desire to feel like we have some degree of choice.

 

I see your point here, but on the flip side, being able to see every piece of gear the game has to offer from day one, leaves nothing for the imagination. The "good ol days" where entire raids would drop 1-2 pieces of gear, that were such massive upgrades that people would blow a months worth of DKP to attain them and getting server/world-first discoveries kept the hardcore players engaged.

 

I don't think the RNG coding in this game is good enough to handle a system like that, but this game is seriously lacking that sense of awe you get from downing that big bad mob for the first time and discovering something nobody else has.

 

On Gear Stratification: Is the heightened challenge of more advanced content insufficient as its own reward? I will by no means stick words in your mouth on the matter, but I so often see people declare that they love the challenge out of one side of their mouth when pressing for harder content and then turn around with this exact position when it comes to gear parities and stratifications.

 

It leads me to wonder why they don't just come out and say "We want to be able to get better gear than people that can't run this content, and before people that can't run it as often as we can", as that would, I think, be the stunningly plain truth of the matter.

 

And so I ask, as I do not know; is that the root of your position, and if not, what is?

 

No, this is not the root of my position, but part of it. It comes down to Risk v Reward. People will always take the path of least resistance, it's in our nature. Running 16-man(person, whatever) Ops on Nightmare has no reward other than a title and being able to say you've done it. There's no reason to do it again, and no reason to "grind" the content when you and 7 buds can run 8-man hardmode a hell of a lot easier for the exact same reward.

 

I'm not in full Rakata my self, but I still think Rakata gear should not be attainable outside of very rare hard-mode drops, and running nightmares. The drop rates should also be decreased in these to give the hardcores something to grind on. which keeps them playing and paying.

 

So no, the hightened challenge should not be the only reward to run this content. People who punish them selves on this content would like to show something more than a title for their effort. That why the "hardcores" play, and would continue to grind this content for months if it meant getting 1 more piece of uber gear nobody else has.

 

This is not me having an eletist attitude, its trying to give some reason for people to run the harder content, because right now there simply isn't one.

[va_wanderer]

But group content is no more what casuals are looking for than raiding is.

 

I disagree. I'm a casual. I don't raid, no intention on it.

 

I regularly see other casuals who want to do Heroic 2's and 4's- especially when they realize that often, those 4's can be done by two or three players and a companion. It's a fun, relatively brief time spent (or not, if they really suck) and you're on to newer pastures.

 

Flashpoints, IMHO are about as far as they really need to go for content- a more complex Heroic, with a neat story and unique loot. Operations? Meh.

 

If it's taking more than an hour from start to finish, it's the line where casual ends and hardcore begins. I prefer my content in smaller bites.

[archifikoss]

You're the one asking that all gear be made available for purchase rather than through completing content.

 

If end-game isn't your thing, then you don't care about the gear and it doesn't need to be even easier to obtain.

 

More assumptions... I'm not asking for gear to be available for purchase, stop making assumptions. I am saying that I DON'T CARE IF IT WAS AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE. I DON'T CARE HOW OTHER PEOPLE GET THEIR GEAR. It makes no difference to me since I'd probably have no use for it anyway. And that poster did not warrant a serious response, which I think I gave you in my previous reply. I'd rather you had responded to that than to my reply to a person who won't even bother to write a coherent post.

 

This is another reason I hate gear progression... It all becomes material. The driving force is not the challenge or sense of accomplishment, it's the shiny that awaits people in that chest.

 

If I play a difficult game it will be because I am looking for a challenging game experience at that time. I don't pick it up to get pixelated items, I will do it for the personal satisfaction I will get and I won't care about what others are doing.

Edited February 28, 2012 by archifikoss

[Saurakk]

Raiding is simply a different game altogether than casual leveling or grouping.

 

It takes a lot of time, serious coordination of many people and abilities, persistence to continue to do the same encounter over and over again perfected until you get it right.

 

IF a company puts raiding in their MMOG, there simply needs to be motivation to do that content. This comes in the form of loot.

 

We can all be condescending and try to spout off about "achievements should stand on its own" but if that were the case we would not have award shows, or merits in sports, or bonuses at work, or medals, coins, achievement tokens etc etc etc.

 

Either they put in raiding and do it right....specific benefits you can only get by taking on and defeating this content, or they need to take it totally out and make the rewards accessible to everyone.

 

Some people will never agree with this, but it is what it is and simply what motivates people to raid....the proverbial carrot on the end of the stick.

 

If they said to casuals (which I am now) that you can play all you want but you will never get a new piece of gear, never get a new level, and never get another ability....would any of us really play for long?

 

Risk and effort vs reward.

 

Raiding simply takes more risk (repair costs) and effort (coordination, time, patience) and should be rewarded with unique and better rewards.

 

Everyone CAN raid...it is simply a matter of how important it is to you to make the time to do it.

[maxetius]

actually, hardcores and catering to hardcores is MMO death, because they cannot be appeased and burn through content. why do you think all hardcore MMOs fail, or get less hardcore as they go on? because they need to survive.

 

 

the fact is the vocal minority doesn't pay any more than the quiet majority, so why cater to them?

 

doesn't make any sense. cue arrogant hardcore player insisting that he is the lifeblood of TOR.

[Cancrizans]

Good. MMOs are not and never should have been outlets for the Epeen crowd. Take your poor self image somewhere else so we don't have to witness the pathetic spectacle of grown adults compensating by strutting around capital cities/fleets showing off their armor as if they just cured Cancer or solved world hunger.

[TheSwamper]

Where do the so called casuals get their bossguides, skill guides etc from? from those whom try to play on the highest possible competitive level. Its them doing all the theorycrafting.

 

 

IMO, if boss guides are required, then game design is a failure. How about instead of having to be 'hardcore' to beat the content, they keep the difficulty where it is and just award a score based on how well you defeated the content?

 

This way, everyone gets to see it, but for those to whom PvE competitiveness matters, they can have a ladder of sorts, and a reason to keep doing the content even if you have all the gear from it already.

[Aloro]

But group content is no more what casuals are looking for than raiding is.

 

That's a very strange assumption, and not one based on fact as I perceive it. Many casual players do enjoy grouping. There's a meaningful difference between running quests and running Ops/FPs though.

[Pekish]

and the lack of epeen is a bad thing why? because a 5% of the pop will quit leaveing the comunity a better place without all those naked junk-head hanging around?

 

if we want to talk about something pleasing the minority of the player why not make gear only esthetic and let only the selection of abilities+skill make the difference in game?

 

lets take it to an extend lets please just me and make the game force people to play lvl 1-10 for 3 weeks then world event (maybe PVP) and it will open up the zone lvl 11-20(with a story that fit the result of the world event if emp win the new area will have emp base and republic will have to catch up or the opposite) in that way the game will last for EVERYBODY at lease 5(50lvl/5area)x3weeks everybody will actually experiment ALL THE AREA designed by the devs instead of rushing through all the majority of the game...

 

In those 15 weeks (more or less 3 mounth and something almost 4 devs will have time to come up with some more content to extend the game once at lvl 50! Getting to lvl 50 in 2 weeks is sick in the head no matter what u believe)

 

and since we are in the utopia speaking why dont we lock the game to a 3 hour max per day or more flexible a 7x3... 21 hours a week to use as it please you better so everybody play the same quantity of hours that's fu....ing balanced!

 

you want to play more buy more accounts... if i were a software house i would honestly try new mechanic

Edited February 28, 2012 by Pekish

[lineschmidt]

actually, hardcores and catering to hardcores is MMO death, because they cannot be appeased and burn through content. why do you think all hardcore MMOs fail, or get less hardcore as they go on? because they need to survive.

 

 

the fact is the vocal minority doesn't pay any more than the quiet majority, so why cater to them?

 

doesn't make any sense. cue arrogant hardcore player insisting that he is the lifeblood of TOR.

QFT and well said

[LizardSF]

They are the ones who create awesome websites with strats and videos for bosses, or the math nerds who theorycraft all the best specs and how to gear and spreadsheets and 3rd party programs to make the game better if you are into that stuff.

 

You mean, the people who give the game all the excitement of a spreadsheet, and whose perfect game is one where they start a macro running in the morning, then come back in the evening to see how many dungeons their perfectly automated character has cleared?

 

Those people?

 

Because, pretty much, WoW's got that segement locked up, and there's no way to play catch-up going after that part of the market. BioWare is better off not wasting their resources; it would be like trying to attract EVE players.

[Clown_Envy]

This whole thread is a joke.

 

Best thing anyone could do is level 3-4 toons at the SAME TIME. Keeps things super interesting while BIOWARE fixes the areas that all these "hardcore" gamers are complaining about.

 

I'm willing to stick around and see if it gets better...I'll take a Jedi with a lightsaber like THIS than an elf with an ax like THAT any day....THE END.

 

I literally LOVE Star Wars...can't say I feel the same way about wizards and dragons.

 

PLENTY of content for initial release, they did a great job, period.

[LizardSF]

 

No, this is not the root of my position, but part of it. It comes down to Risk v Reward. People will always take the path of least resistance, it's in our nature. Running 16-man(person, whatever) Ops on Nightmare has no reward other than a title and being able to say you've done it. There's no reason to do it again, and no reason to "grind" the content when you and 7 buds can run 8-man hardmode a hell of a lot easier for the exact same reward.

 

Why would you WANT to grind content, though?

 

What's the appeal of running the exact same instance 10, 20, 30, 40, times?

 

If I had the choice to spend, say, two months running the SAME INSTANCE just to get some armor, or two months leveling an alt, it's a no-brainer to choose the latter. Consider -- it's a constantly shifting experience as you level, complete the story, explore, etc. Sure, it's repetitive in many ways (you'll do most of the same side quests once on each pass), but spending two months repeating content that spans levels 1-50 with multiple heroics, flashpoints, etc, is much less repetitive than spending two months running the same instance over and and over... content that loops every 60-100 hours of game play vs. content that loops every two hours of gameplay? How is this even a QUESTION?

 

Someday, some publisher will grow some balls and say, "Look, when you hit level cap, you're done. Your character marries someone and retires. Maybe he/she can come out of retirement when we release an expansion. In the meanwhile, you explored less than a quarter of the total world when you leveled, go back and see the rest of it with a new character."

[Lethality]

OP, while sort of crass, is correct. There needs to be more explicit competition. No one really cares about end-game progression, and perhaps that's what BioWare wants.

 

But it's my opinion that not having a collective carrot for the community as a whole to chase makes the game seem entirely uninteresting.

[DarthKhaos]

Someday, some publisher will grow some balls and say, "Look, when you hit level cap, you're done. Your character marries someone and retires. Maybe he/she can come out of retirement when we release an expansion. In the meanwhile, you explored less than a quarter of the total world when you leveled, go back and see the rest of it with a new character."

Man this would be funny.

[Sotaudi]

So the hardcore minority is not playing anymore while the casual majority is enjoying the game?

 

Shocking isn't it?

 

No ... no ... no! That is not possible. Haven't the hardcore been telling us all along how it is important to cater to them because because it is the hardcore who stick with a game through thick and thin while the casuals and other lesser beings jump from game to game? So, clearly, this could not be the case.

[Dumpiduke]

Man this would be funny.

 

And idiotic Why not experience the rest of this world with your battle-worn max leveled character that you worked hard to achieve. I know I'm not the only one that prefers this kind of playstyle...

Edited February 28, 2012 by Dumpiduke

[Eileithia]

Why would you WANT to grind content, though?

 

What's the appeal of running the exact same instance 10, 20, 30, 40, times?

 

Because that's how hardcores play. If you keep that carrot on the end of the stick they'll play the same content for years to get it all.

 

That doesn't mean YOU have to do it, but for those who WANT to do it, they can, and continue to get rewarded for doing so.

 

Gear acquisition is the carrot, and the longer it takes to get the carrot the longer they will pay and play.

 

As to the "Vocal minority can shove-it, I'm having fun".. Good for you. I'm having fun too, but guess what all the potential new customers are reading when they come to the forums to check out the game. The ones who are vocal, and upset with the current state of the end-game. You may not like the Hardcores, but they are the voice of the playing population in a lot of cases.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Eileithia

[Andryah]

Best thing anyone could do is level 3-4 toons at the SAME TIME. Keeps things super interesting while BIOWARE fixes the areas that all these "hardcore" gamers are complaining about.

 

Exactly.

 

OR, if you can't do that, then don't sign up for a new MMO. Wait 6-12 months before you jump in if you are a one character min/maxer.

[Fredcat]

Your right.

 

The thing is I've played a lot of MMO's since 1999. I can't think of one that had much if any "hard core" content 10 weeks after release. The vast majority of SWTOR's casual playerbase hasn't even hit level cap yet. They havn't even seen normal mode of the 16 mans yet. And they definitely don't have full BM yet, all you got to do is go to Ilum and look around. They aren't doing the bag grind for fun.

 

I'm pretty hard core but don't kid yourself, there are way way more casuals then hard core players. You'll get more content, but it's gonna take them more then 10 weeks.

[Erulinda]

Your right.

 

The thing is I've played a lot of MMO's since 1999. I can't think of one that had much if any "hard core" content 10 weeks after release.

 

Same here.... people usualy refer to DAoC as setting some kind of standard in mass PVP, and they did without a doubt... but what people seem to forget is that even in a game like DAoC the first few months were... well... "fun" to be honest.

 

No armor ingame (not crafted or dropped) over level 35 (50 was the max)

No falling damage... what a great day it was after that patch seeing 90% of the players fall to their deaths due to not reading the patch notes

Infiltrators killing entire groups without loosing stealth...

 

Oh, those were the days.... to bad people usualy seem to compare the state of a game now to any new game...

[Uruare]

With regard to XP Gain. The leveling curve in this game is WAY too fast with compared to the amount of end-game content available. Yes, there is much more incentive in this game to play alts (Separate story lines etc) than say Rift, or WoW, or [insert Random MMO] but that's where it stops.

 

With there not being enough end-game content to play for the "Hardcores" the leveling curve should be slowed down. I'm not saying to the rate of EVE, or EQ1 by any means but a minor (10-20%) reduction in XP gain would have added a week or two before raiding guilds had 50's in the numbers required to start taking on end-game FP's/Raids.

 

Even without skipping dialogue, as somone who has ~3-4 hours a day of playtime (by no means hardcore) you reach level cap in under 1 month.

 

I guess my point being, as a developer, BW needs to walk the line of enough grind to be able to frequently add content for hardcores, but not so slow that casuals end up frustrated. Unfortunately, with how insanely fast you CAN level cap a character in this game, with no solid long-term end-game a lot of hardcores have already left before the 2nd month subscription came due.

 

You may have a point there, and I'd fully expect to see some alterations made to the XP values of things as time goes by and quantities of content (presumably yet to come) start getting integrated in the 1-50 game.

 

 

I'm not sure I would agree to what you're suggesting those changes should be though. My position is that I have too little information to make a good speculation on what the changes should be into the future, and as for what's already gone...ehhhhh...I don't know that anybody except the hardcore probably (big ? attached to that) had much cause for complaint on XP gain/time investment ratios.

 

Would be interesting to see the median data of the statistically average player on this one, I think.

 

 

 

I see your point here, but on the flip side, being able to see every piece of gear the game has to offer from day one, leaves nothing for the imagination. The "good ol days" where entire raids would drop 1-2 pieces of gear, that were such massive upgrades that people would blow a months worth of DKP to attain them and getting server/world-first discoveries kept the hardcore players engaged.

 

I don't think the RNG coding in this game is good enough to handle a system like that, but this game is seriously lacking that sense of awe you get from downing that big bad mob for the first time and discovering something nobody else has.

 

You make a valid enough point for your position from the perspective of placing a positive value on that substance of what is and isn't left to the imagination. It's not of any particular concern to me either way on a personal level, but I can at least see the point you're making; if someone valued that process of finding out, this could be a detriment to their enjoyment.

 

On the other hand, I can just as easily see how there might be some that could, on equally valid terms, argue the contrary; that they have no knowledge until someone sets up a website listing all known gear drops from various things and wouldn't have any say on what they got if it were all up in the air. And possibly that lists would proliferate soon enough that would take the mystique out of it anyway, and then they'd be left with no deterministic options no matter.

 

 

But perhaps...there's other places where things could be left to the imagination. Random events in instances with unique-to-the-random-encounter loot drops (not tokens or commendations of any sort) could be a handy compromise.

 

And such a thing could certainly spice up content that can elsewise get old quickly, especially if several random events could happen at various points in a dungeon or raid.

 

Just a thought for where the sentiment you express a sense of positive value upon could be achieved to, perhaps, the interest-engaging benefits of many without having to necessarily alter the way the 'core loot' is handled with the current model of semi-deterministic commendation vendor lists.

 

 

 

No, this is not the root of my position, but part of it. It comes down to Risk v Reward. People will always take the path of least resistance, it's in our nature. Running 16-man(person, whatever) Ops on Nightmare has no reward other than a title and being able to say you've done it. There's no reason to do it again, and no reason to "grind" the content when you and 7 buds can run 8-man hardmode a hell of a lot easier for the exact same reward.

 

I'm not in full Rakata my self, but I still think Rakata gear should not be attainable outside of very rare hard-mode drops, and running nightmares. The drop rates should also be decreased in these to give the hardcores something to grind on. which keeps them playing and paying.

 

So no, the hightened challenge should not be the only reward to run this content. People who punish them selves on this content would like to show something more than a title for their effort. That why the "hardcores" play, and would continue to grind this content for months if it meant getting 1 more piece of uber gear nobody else has.

 

This is not me having an eletist attitude, its trying to give some reason for people to run the harder content, because right now there simply isn't one.

 

 

 

While I certainly won't argue with the frequently true observation that both the lazy and the efficient will seek the path of least resistance as a matter of course, I encounter this position a lot in other places, and I like to counter it with this; why do people climb Mount Everest?

 

 

There's nothing up there to get. You don't get terribly famous for it. It -CERTAINLY- isn't easy. And yet, people still do it. And many more that will probably never climb Mount Everest still go rock climbing, some of them on equally impressive terrain features, or even just down in their local gym on the peg wall or at an indoor rock climbing arena.

 

 

It defies human nature on many levels; it's not easy and you don't really seem to get anything for it. It's a highly impractical thing to do, in fact; lots of risk (necessitating all the safety precautions even in an indoor arena or on a peg wall) and what as a reward?

 

Sense of achievement can often be found amongst rock climbers as the most commonly reported reason for why they climb things like that, just to throw a spoiler on the quandary.

 

 

--

 

 

So...how might Bioware turn their endgame into less of a carrot-hunting steeple chase and more of a Mount Everest?

 

How might they make it be something that people want to do because of how much of an achievement it would be without having to be bribed with better gear than most will ever own to do it?

 

Personally, I think the carrot-chase is a pretty played out canard, but also a very easy one to lean on and automate.

 

Still, with the emphasis of the MMO industry taking a definitive turn for the casual, I think the hardcore would be very well counselled to start coming up with ideas developers can use that can better synergize with a casual format.

 

Mount Everest is a wonderful example to make for this too, I think. The rock climbers that never actually go climbing much of anything outside their gym's peg wall can well admire the strength, grit, determination and perseverence of someone that prepares for and then even attempts an Everest climb, let alone succeeds at reaching the summit.

 

They can rally behind such individuals, support them, cheer them on when they hear it's being tried even if they don't know them; it's not a competition by any necessity.

 

Gear on here? Another participle of human nature can be described as that everyone's going to want all the shinies.

 

 

--

 

 

I say, put all the shinies within casually comfortable reaching distance of everyone.

 

And then put successions of everything from the Carlsbad cave adventures before them on over to Mount Everest summit attempts ...to climbing your local cliff or open pit mine walls.

 

Take the glorified status away from the tools...and put it on what you can do with them; what you may, as a hardcore, put in the time, the preparation and the effort to go forth and do with them.

 

And then, at the top of Mount Everest in this context, put something neat and relatively rare or unique that isn't necessarily superior gear to stick in a slot, but...hey...if you're wearing the black with glowing violet trimmed full set of Mount Everest vanity gear that you can pick three different appearances for (Light, Medium or Heavy) while retaining the function of whatever the best armor type you can wear is that you can also plug all your own mods into, that'd be pretty dang cool right?

 

E-peeners could even slobber all over themselves over it if they got it.

 

It wouldn't deny even the most casual indoor rock climber the best tools available. If they didn't have time or interest or what-de-frak ever to go climb Mount Everest (which is NOT a solo climb, to put a fine pointed finger there), they'd still have all the functional ability (read as 'statted gear') to do it.

 

Just not the marks of achievement showing off that they'd done it. Yeah, it'd boil down to an appeal to vanity more specifically than ego on functionality.

 

But that, I think, is a really, really good place for that kind of appeal to be utilized.

 

And I think synergizing it with casual interests rather than diametrically opposing the limited tolerances/interests/willingness to invest of the dominant-and-growing casual market would serve everybody's interests.

 

Even those motivated by nothing more than wanting to stand on a fencepost and /dance in the hopes that passers-by would stop and gawk and /bow at them.

 

Your thoughts?

Edited February 28, 2012 by Uruare