Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[NkSde]

Do you not see the sadistic, sexual undertones? She takes the shocks in stride--one could even interpret her as enjoying them despite her effervescent complaints and willingness to do your bidding regardless.

 

This is a game that's supposed to have an honest focus on narrative. The trilogy had the good sense not to include characters who willingly remain in an abusive relationship to the point of marriage with no meaningful dialogue exchange.

 

There is no discourse whatsoever that we, as an audience, would be granted in the cinema if a similar situation were to occur. I'm still not seeing why some of you find this acceptable. Leia being tortured and having her planet explode is a tense scene--she doesn't return to her captor and marry him--just as she wouldn't spare Jabba for a little more slave action and a possible nuptial agreement.

 

I feel as if most of you are just trying to excuse this content as some kind of norm in video games. This is not a regular occurrence and it's certainly not something I've seen Bioware present to audiences.

 

If someone wants to offer an argument beyond the fact that "The Empire is Evil" or "parents suck" with more than just one or two sentences, please do.

 

 

you clearly haven't read my posts nor a few of the other ones floating around.

Edited February 1, 2012 by NkSde

[TyHeaton]

Do you not see the sadistic, sexual undertones? She takes the shocks in stride--one could even interpret her as enjoying them despite her effervescent complaints and willingness to do your bidding regardless.

 

This is a game that's supposed to have an honest focus on narrative. The trilogy had the good sense not to include characters who willingly remain in an abusive relationship to the point of marriage with no meaningful dialogue exchange.

 

There is no discourse whatsoever that we, as an audience, would be granted in the cinema if a similar situation were to occur. I'm still not seeing why some of you find this acceptable. Leia being tortured and having her planet explode is a tense scene--she doesn't return to her captor and marry him--just as she wouldn't spare Jabba for a little more slave action and a possible nuptial agreement.

 

I feel as if most of you are just trying to excuse this content as some kind of norm in video games. This is not a regular occurrence and it's certainly not something I've seen Bioware present to audiences.

 

If someone wants to offer an argument beyond the fact that "The Empire is Evil" or "parents suck" with more than just one or two sentences, please do.

 

I don't see anything sexual about it. You do. Which of us is the messed up one? (You.)

[Fiachsidhe]

It's the same for the "light side" decisions. Many are normal no-brainer things, but ultimately the writing has all the subtlety of a flying mallet. They seemed to really want to drive the evil home, and made much of it hackneyed and on the nose.

 

Like you expect the characters to break the fourth wall, and turn to the audience and say something like: "Pretty EVIL Eh?"

 

Like they're trying their best as some De Sade ****, and like De Sade, come off as blatant, and pretentious.

[zaltanus]

This message won't be entirely helpful.

 

Seriously- if you wanted nicey-nice I recommend playing Pubs. I'm sure your heroic quests and flashpoints can include LS/DS decisions like LS- Pet the kitten, and DS- Pet the kitten HARD.

 

What did you expect from playing Empire? The movies kind of lay out the kind of decisions Imps make on a regular basis. Even then, you can go LS Imp. Sure it's more decisions like "LS- Give the slaves a quick death, and DS- Give the slaves a slow, painful death" but it's where the Empire naturally comes from. They're not your buds- they're all trying to use you for power to get ahead until it's time to throw your used-up corpse to the curb. That's how Imps are. SW:ToR stayed true to that. Not much more to say.

 

 

Empire is not rainbows and sunshine.

 

[Selaik]

You know what i find hilarious ?

 

That were trying to justify an imaginary situation by an imaginary bad guy in an imaginary game based on an imaginary universe when theres real life atrocity's committed all over the world every day, dose no one else see the irony in this ?

 

I swear some of you people wont be happy till theres a government agency that tells you how to put your pants on in the morning , take responsibility for your own actions! leave the rest of us alone!

Edited February 1, 2012 by Selaik

[JDTC]

This has to be a troll.

 

There's nothing sexual about Vette's shock collar unless you had sexual thoughts in your head to begin with. Blame yourself for being a deviant.

 

she sounds like a 14 year old anyway

 

OP you should lock yourself up

[Limedust]

It is not a difficult thing to be a good parent. It just isn't.

 

But you've taken much out of my post that wasn't really there. Good job on that.

 

Yes, it was quite a good job, wasn't it . . . your intentions and what you wrote are two very different things.

[Kindara]

Did you read the entirety of the post? How often do you press spacebar? Do you feel there's anything problematic with the way some of the Empire quest lines are handled given it's T for Teen rating?

 

perpetuating age old chauvinistic view of female characters, aiding in slave trades, verifying race purity, sexually abusing a companion who genuinely just wants to help you.

 

Why does it seem like developers go out of there way to make games unfriendly to women? My girlfriend was literally sickened by it

 

--and yes she agreed that under the circumstance of a more intelligent, well developed scene the actions could be made justifiably, but as they stand it's just gross. Certainly worthy of an M rating and not fitting the Pixar vibe you get for the other odd half of the content.

 

As a woman I dont find this game unfriendly to me and I play on the Imperial side. We laern about all these topics in school constantly (if your going to a decent school that actually teaches history). Why should a Game with a teen rating sensor topics even ones that are touchy when they certaintly arent' sensored in school. You can't live under a blind cover forever. These things are happening in the real world, have happened in the real world and will likely keep happening int he real world as long as people just blindly go along ignoring it.

 

There's nothing R rated or Mature rated about these subjects. World War 2 and the Nazi movement and all the subjects on slavery and the women's right issues are taught in school. Oddly enough many of these topics are where the Empire is drawn from and always has been.

 

They dont show gore, blood, inappropriate language, or nudity all of which are considered by the US mature content.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Kindara

[Dire]

Do you not see the sadistic, sexual undertones? She takes the shocks in stride--one could even interpret her as enjoying them despite her effervescent complaints and willingness to do your bidding regardless.

 

And some people in real life enjoy that. This type of engagement is supported by thousands upon thousands of people worldwide - Whats wrong with that? You are full of presumptions and judgements, its disgusting.

 

This is a game that's supposed to have an honest focus on narrative. The trilogy had the good sense not to include characters who willingly remain in an abusive relationship to the point of marriage with no meaningful dialogue exchange.

 

Are you telling me you're shocked when someone in your community doesn't live their life like a robot and exactly the way YOU think? How ignorant are you?

 

There is no discourse whatsoever that we, as an audience, would be granted in the cinema if a similar situation were to occur. I'm still not seeing why some of you find this acceptable. Leia being tortured and having her planet explode is a tense scene--she doesn't return to her captor and marry him--just as she wouldn't spare Jabba for a little more slave action and a possible nuptial agreement.

 

The fact that you return to this topic kind of shows the weakness in your original statements. If you were a better writter you would be published and or making millions off a game - but instead you're here being a terrible critic

 

I feel as if most of you are just trying to excuse this content as some kind of norm in video games. This is not a regular occurrence and it's certainly not something I've seen Bioware present to audiences.

 

Actually most of us (notice the majority) happen to enjoy the content for what it is and don't need fiction to be a reflection of reality - THATS WHY ITS A GAME.

 

If someone wants to offer an argument beyond the fact that "The Empire is Evil" or "parents suck" with more than just one or two sentences, please do.

 

I have seen dozens of comments that you ignored to continue to validate your ego.

[Beansoup]

I always remove the shock collar first thing when possible, no matter how evil I might act otherwise with my characters.

 

There's some really odd LS/DS choices too, like that dieing betrayer on the Black Talon flashpoint. The choices for light side is to take him as prisoner and being tormented forever, and the dark side option is to kill him on the spot. I don't know about you, but killing him sounds much more mercifull to me.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Beansoup

[Scoobings]

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not bothered by this game having a evil side, it's part of the starwars saga afterall, but it bothers me how mindless and over the top both sides are portraid and how people scream when a *** is shown but its ok for 13 year olds to play a mindless psychopath that lacks any empathy.

 

And my other point is, the storys, overall, feel boring. Go there kill everything, come back get rewarded and feel like a ****** or go there and save this and that and become a monk? It often lacks logic !

 

And what is left when you strip the story away? for now, a medicore wow clone. Not even crafting is entertaining :/.

 

I think you're right, I misunderstood you. I pretty much agree with you about everything, except I think it's silly to think that the answer is to censor more (not saying you think that).

 

As far as being a wow clone, I disagree but I really don't feel like having this arguement again

[pjskull]

This thread is just silly. There is no inequality between genders here. Both are treated equally shabbily by the Imperial side.

 

- Vader was a young male slave (in the Republic, I might add). Slavery is littered throughout SW canon and the expanded universe.

 

- In terms of equality, in the game, you encounter 2 males slaves with shock collars within the first 2 planets. Green guy on Hutta you are send to retrieve and slave in Dark Temple that becomes the "leader" of all the posessed people in the Temple. It's not just female slaves.

 

- If you think the shock collar has a sexual aspect to it, that is *your* interpretation, based on what is in *your* head. I looked at it as an unpleasant prisoner control tool.

 

The Imperial side of the game is based on what we would find a very unpleasant culture played against our modern sensabilities. It's also *fiction*. And, you *don't have to play it* if you don't like it.

 

To say that the game deviates from established canon in the cinematic and literary SW expanded universe is just false and can be proven false very easily.

 

If the game offends your sensabilities, and you are entitled to put that threshold where ever you'd like, you should not play it. But to suggest that this game should be altered for its extreme content is just silly.

 

Video games are entertainment like movies or books. They are not required viewing. You don't like them, choose something else.

[MasterEddard]

Also, I have to note. The Horde in WoW were the good guys... Maybe a little rougher around the edges, but if you believed they were the "evil" faction in the game, you weren't paying attention.

 

They weren't the good guys. But they were good guys. At least until, (what's his face?) Orc dude who killed the Tauren leader became Chieftain.

[Hahkil]

Do you not see the sadistic, sexual undertones? She takes the shocks in stride--one could even interpret her as enjoying them despite her effervescent complaints and willingness to do your bidding regardless.

 

This is a game that's supposed to have an honest focus on narrative. The trilogy had the good sense not to include characters who willingly remain in an abusive relationship to the point of marriage with no meaningful dialogue exchange.

 

There is no discourse whatsoever that we, as an audience, would be granted in the cinema if a similar situation were to occur. I'm still not seeing why some of you find this acceptable. Leia being tortured and having her planet explode is a tense scene--she doesn't return to her captor and marry him--just as she wouldn't spare Jabba for a little more slave action and a possible nuptial agreement.

 

I feel as if most of you are just trying to excuse this content as some kind of norm in video games. This is not a regular occurrence and it's certainly not something I've seen Bioware present to audiences.

 

If someone wants to offer an argument beyond the fact that "The Empire is Evil" or "parents suck" with more than just one or two sentences, please do.

 

TBH, it seems purely down to your sick head that Vette "enjoys" the shocks... Look at yourself instead of BW.

 

She willingly stays in a relationship where she is shocked? Lol, you realize that it is a slave collar, to stop you know, slaves not being slaves... What will happen if she is rude... or she tries to run? shock, that's what the collar is there for, the idea that she can willingly run away or show open discontent to the person whilst the collar is on is ridiculous.

 

Also, whilst weird writing, the marriage occurs after the shock collar is removed, if I am not mistaken, further enforcing the idea that the sexuality of the shocks is down to your own twisted head.

 

I can shock Vette a hell of alot on my female Sith, yet you would not see this as a sexual act regardless of all these "nods" you made up, proving again, it is down to you.

 

It is not trying to be portrayed as the norm in a video game, it is being portrayed as the norm in Star Wars!!

 

tl;dr: It is the perception of the OP that these acts are "sexual" and that is a major basis for the discontent, which is stupid, especially in the Star Wars Universe.

 

And not running away or acting angered whilst a shock collar is around you neck would be common sense to anyone, unless they want more shocks, and has no sexual connection to it.

[Kindara]

Do you not see the sadistic, sexual undertones? She takes the shocks in stride--one could even interpret her as enjoying them with her effervescent sassy complaints and willingness to do your bidding regardless.

 

How often do you see media portray a slave shrug off severe lashings with giggles and giddy sounding pleas?

 

Oh right, it's a game, parents need to look out, the Empire is evil. Why does this matter when what I'm seeing is disgusting and unjustifiable with no intelligent context? Clearly I need to grow up and passively allow what so many others did and let a game I enjoy encourage sexual aggression towards women. Right.

 

Vette is a flirtatious character no matter what gender you choose to play as--and the dialogue outright encourages you to continue down the path of continued abuse as she nearly stops being developed as a character altogether. When she does chime in, nothing is rationalized and the gap in her story with you is not bridged.

 

It's complete rubbish to claim this kind of game design is appropriate.

 

This is a game that's supposed to have an honest focus on narrative. The trilogy had the good sense not to include characters who willingly remain in an abusive relationship to the point of marriage with no meaningful dialogue exchange.

 

There is no discourse whatsoever that we, as an audience, would be granted in the cinema if a similar situation were to occur. I'm still not seeing why some of you find this acceptable. Leia being tortured and having her planet explode is a tense scene--she doesn't return to her captor and marry him--just as she wouldn't spare Jabba for a little more slave action and a possible nuptial agreement.

 

I feel as if most of you are just trying to excuse this content as some kind of norm in video games. This is not a regular occurrence and it's certainly not something I've seen Bioware present to audiences.

 

If someone wants to offer an argument beyond the fact that "The Empire is Evil" or "parents suck" with more than just one or two sentences, please do.

 

You know you had a choice to remove the shock collar from her right? I did with my marauder. You made the choice to keep it on and use it and your complaining about that choice? Who's the bad guy here the devs or You the one who chose to keep it on.

 

You kept her as a slave, you shock her, you are the one making that choice. You can still be evil and not keep her as a slave.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Kindara

[cromartyfive]

I think the writing could have been better. The story is great by video game standards but the bar is pretty low.

 

People mention the Empire blowing up a planet to show how evil they are. This game has the opportunity to explore much more of the choices than the movie does. Maybe they blew it up because they wanted to end the rebellion as quickly as possible and lose as few Imperial lives to do it.

 

Sounds like the United States dropping a nuclear bomb on Japan.

 

Yes this is only a game but they could have made complex stories and choices with morally ambiguous motives. Instead they went with you get to chose to a) be nice b)be neutral or c) be a mustache twirling villain in a cartoon that kills people just cause they're there.

[Shampoo]

I don't see anything sexual about it. You do. Which of us is the messed up one? (You.)

 

Propose this to a scholar at any institution of higher learning. Hell, show your mother, your girlfriend, sister or even neighbor.

 

Have you lived your life believing there's no sexuality involved in caging or shocking someone as they writhe and gasp for breath? It sounds crass, but this is how the media is seeing it. This is how any person of reason is seeing it.

 

Vette is presented in a sexual way. With all due respect, it seems the delusion presides within the confines of your own limited knowledge of human sexuality.

[grania]

It doesn't broach the subject of the Empire eating itself alive.

 

It does a little bit, like in a conversation my inq had with Ashara, and as a ls sith warrior. But no, never anywhere does anyone come out and say "this kind of behavior is not sustainable", at least not anywhere that I've encountered.

 

I wish that it would, but maybe I'm asking a little too much out of something that is supposed to be simple, I dunno.

[Vaegaknight]

He's just trolling folks, time to move on.

[Inspecter]

Do you not see the sadistic, sexual undertones? She takes the shocks in stride--one could even interpret her as enjoying them with her effervescent sassy complaints and willingness to do your bidding regardless.

 

How often do you see media portray a slave shrug off severe lashings with giggles and giddy sounding pleas?

 

Oh right, it's a game, parents need to look out, the Empire is evil. Why does this matter when what I'm seeing is disgusting and unjustifiable with no intelligent context? Clearly I need to grow up and passively allow what so many others did and let a game I enjoy encourage sexual aggression towards women. Right.

 

Vette is a flirtatious character no matter what gender you choose to play as--and the dialogue outright encourages you to continue down the path of continued abuse as she nearly stops being developed as a character altogether. When she does chime in, nothing is rationalized and the gap in her story with you is not bridged.

 

It's complete rubbish to claim this kind of game design is appropriate.

 

This is a game that's supposed to have an honest focus on narrative. The trilogy had the good sense not to include characters who willingly remain in an abusive relationship to the point of marriage with no meaningful dialogue exchange.

 

There is no discourse whatsoever that we, as an audience, would be granted in the cinema if a similar situation were to occur. I'm still not seeing why some of you find this acceptable. Leia being tortured and having her planet explode is a tense scene--she doesn't return to her captor and marry him--just as she wouldn't spare Jabba for a little more slave action and a possible nuptial agreement.

 

I feel as if most of you are just trying to excuse this content as some kind of norm in video games. This is not a regular occurrence and it's certainly not something I've seen Bioware present to audiences.

 

If someone wants to offer an argument beyond the fact that "The Empire is Evil" or "parents suck" with more than just one or two sentences, please do.

 

 

I haven't played Imp yet, but as far as why she would stay with an abusive DS character...she wasn't born in the latter half of the 20th century into Western Civilization on Earth....although there are women who were that do the same thing.

 

She's been a slave her entire life (correct me if i'm wrong)...her family has likely been slaves their entire lives, going back generations, in what is basically fascist regime. She takes the abuse in stride because for her, that *is* normal.

 

You cant apply our moral codes to the NPCs and then be surprised when they don't match up...they're written as having come from a completely alien background from most of us players.

[SWImara]

Do you not see the sadistic, sexual undertones? She takes the shocks in stride--one could even interpret her as enjoying them despite her effervescent complaints and willingness to do your bidding regardless.

 

This is a game that's supposed to have an honest focus on narrative. The trilogy had the good sense not to include characters who willingly remain in an abusive relationship to the point of marriage with no meaningful dialogue exchange.

To be frank (the Star Wars fans won't appreciate this) but the Star Wars trilogy is an awesome example of one dimensional simplistic storytelling. People look for depth in it because they want to, but in many ways it was just a standard hero's journey with practically 0 thought seemingly put into the cardboard characters and even less put into the villains. Vader & the Emperor were about as well written and believable as the average James Bond villain.

 

There is no discourse whatsoever that we, as an audience, would be granted in the cinema if a similar situation were to occur. I'm still not seeing why some of you find this acceptable. Leia being tortured and having her planet explode is a tense scene--she doesn't return to her captor and marry him--just as she wouldn't spare Jabba for a little more slave action and a possible nuptial agreement.

 

I feel as if most of you are just trying to excuse this content as some kind of norm in video games. This is not a regular occurrence and it's certainly not something I've seen Bioware present to audiences.

 

If someone wants to offer an argument beyond the fact that "The Empire is Evil" or "parents suck" with more than just one or two sentences, please do.

 

I don't think anyone is trying to "excuse" anything, I think OP is aiming to find a problem and then soapboxing about it. Choice isn't a bad thing. There are some truly morally abhorrent games out there, so if people feel the /need/ to campaign on video game morality (rather than fixing real world problems) there are some valid targets out there. I will always remember renting RockStar's "Manhunt", I played through the first scene, suffocated someone with a plastic bag, felt genuinely disgusted with myself and returned the game immediately. That was the /point/ of that game, in SWTOR any rotten choice you make is due to your own moral exploration (or failing).

 

I understand that the standard in MMOs has long been nothing but chopping up "bad guys" for XP and loots (questionable in and of itself, large scale violence necessary to progress), but lets not forget that RPG is also a part of the name. Being able to make choices that mean something is a nice addition to this genre, if all of one's choices were shoehorned into one set of moral beliefs (ie if you were only allowed to be a good guy, and both sides were essentially "good at heart") then the RP aspect of the game would be meaningless and the moral stories told even more so.

 

If we are so stuck on taking our moral values from video games try this on. There are good and bad characters in both the Republic and the Empire, maybe (maybe) this might teach young American kids that someone being your enemy doesn't necessarily make them "evil" or any less morally upright than you are.

Edited February 1, 2012 by SWImara

[RikHar]

The OP writes, "I despise censorship."

 

 

 

Apparently not.

[Vaegaknight]

It does a little bit, like in a conversation my inq had with Ashara, and as a ls sith warrior. But no, never anywhere does anyone come out and say "this kind of behavior is not sustainable", at least not anywhere that I've encountered.

 

I wish that it would, but maybe I'm asking a little too much out of something that is supposed to be simple, I dunno.

 

Play through the agent story. It's littered with the kind of dialogue you're looking for.

[NemoSD]

In all fiction, we have horrible people, choices, and characters. The point of fiction is not just to explore our inner hero, but to explore the view points from different angles. For example, the Warhammer 40k Universe is one in which humans live in a brutal totalitarian rule, where a single deviation of faith (Which would include fixing a broken computer unless you were a trained and ordained Priest) results in in death.

 

Dan Abnett and a few other authors have written stories from the perspective of Commissars and Inquisitors of the Imperium, and have written these individuals who do actions that today would be morally reprehensible but are able to garner some sympathy. They represent facts that no matter how bad it gets, there is still a glimmer, a spark, of hope in the human condition.

 

Star Wars is no different. The Sith are evil. They understand that, and believe that in order to be strong the idea of good and evil must be laid to rest. They love as fiercely as the hate, and they fear both love and hate. Violence is the natural out come, violence becomes the ultimate expression of the idea that all extreme emotion is the source of strength, and that one should be afraid of the effects of extreme emotions. It is thus the sacrifice a Sith makes to become strong, so that he or she may lead the Empire, which is full of weak people who would otherwise perish. That is the nature of the beast. You choose to play a demon of the Force. They embody the darkness and wield it as a strength, without remorse, without compassion, and without consideration, because that is what they were violently, brutally, and viciously indoctrinated into.

 

I have roleplayed a Sith for a long time, in many games. I find it challenging, because despite all of that, it is important to remember they are sill sentient beings, and they crack. This is why Baras is the way he is, jumping at every shadow, this is why Harkun was the way he was on Korriban, this is what motivates Zash, and as the player hits the upper levels, the dark side choices become more extreme, the paranoia increases, because they are cracking under the pressure of the dark side, over the choices they made.

 

The Sith Warrior has a beautiful turning point about half way through. They are faced with a situation where they can start down the path of light or dark, and crystallize their future. It is in that moment that all the meaning you are looking for is held.

 

The problem is, you are either blinded by your cause, or to immature to see the literary meanings of the Sith. (This game portrays them very well given the Canon on them, and if you are not familiar with it, a lot is lost, which is also what is occurring here.)

 

You have no problem with evil as long as it is not taken seriously, but Sith are serious and severe people, and to portray them as over the top laughable Bond villains would be more dangerous because it would make evil seem conscionable. When you make the choice IC to destroy a freighter full of children... you get a glimpse, a hint, of the moral consequences of that choice. You know the dread, and the remorse. (Emotions that a Sith feeds off of by the way.)

 

To portray it serious, and some times in a flippantly off hand way, does more service to the cause you are fighting for then you think. It puts people in the shoes of Hate so that they can more understand it, without actually engaging in it themselves.

 

This is why people feel compelled to look at the darker options in stories, literature, film and television, and video games. It lets them experience hate, prejudice, and its effects from both sides with no real baring on RL.

 

To cheapen that experience is a disservice to your cause.

Edited February 1, 2012 by NemoSD

[Hahkil]

Propose this to a scholar at any institution of higher learning. Hell, show your mother, your girlfriend, sister or even neighbor.

 

Have you lived your life believing there's no sexuality involved in caging or shocking someone as they writhe and gasp for breath? It sounds crass, but this is how the media is seeing it. This is how any person of reason is seeing it.

 

Vette is presented in a sexual way. With all due respect, it seems the delusion presides within the confines of your own limited knowledge of human sexuality.

 

Propose this to a scholar at any institution of higher learning. Hell, show your mother, your girlfriend, sister or even neighbor.

 

Have you lived your life believing there is only sexuality involved in caging or shocking someone as they writhe and gasp for breathe? It sounds crass, but this is how you are seeing it. This is how only you are seeing it.

 

Vette is presented in a flirtatious way. With all due respect, it seem the delusion presides within the confines of your own limited knowledge of human sexuality.

 

 

U MAD BRO?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Hahkil