Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[Jedi_Solinari]

I really do find all these posts about crying that dark siders are wrong, and horrifying and just deplorable..to be profoundly amusing. wth did you guys even think being a dark sider entailed? painting your face stupid colors and dressing like a entitled middle class teenager who shops primarily at hot topic and groans about how unfair life is? Or a full grown adult who grew up in a fascist regime where his superiors told them to do what they wanted to advance in society?

 

I think if you find it morally reprehensible, don't play it. I am a repub player and these options never come up for me. I think bioware did a fantastic job polarizing the feel of each of the factions. and yes, it's your fault for shocking vette so much you are sickened with yourself, perhaps YOU wanted to do and even feel that way afterwards. No one ever said Rp has to be entirely pc and hello kitty island adventure all the time. sometimes you got to bizarre dark parts of the psyche. Remember, it's just a game, and you the player have the power to choose what you want to do.

[tmpearson]

Good read.

[Scoobings]

From what I've read you're simply describing the modern "Western" which draws it's roots from a modernizing of a melodrama. Bad guys are exaggerated and so are heroic actions. It's all part of the styelized world of Star Wars, and the Empire has been a focus of the exaggerated "Bad guy" for as long as the series has been around.

 

Don't get me wrong, I get your confusion because of the first three movies because they were VERY different than the last 3 (I'm going by episodic numbers, not release dates.) Lets not forget, however, that most people who are true fans of the Star Wars series hated the first three movies and any person who has taken a class in dramatic lit can point to the dumbing down of it's style. It veered away from the "Epic" tale, and the modern melo-drama and tried to market itself unsuccessfully as a kids movie at the expense of good plot structure (Quick, someone tell me who the protagonist of Phantom Menace was).

 

You're honestly going to sit there and tell me that blowing up an entire planet isn't an exagerated evil? How about things as simple as the way Siths and Darth Vader dress compared to the heroes. All black robes fighting against all brown and white robes?

 

I could literally rant for hours about how everything in the universe is an extreme, and that's what makes it's stylized delivery so appealing to someone who just wants to be evil, or in your case just wants to be good.

 

To wrap up, it's important to also realize that your motivations are your own and why your character makes the choices that you do is entirely up to you. The Lightside/Darkside gear is purely cosmetic and gives no upgrades end game. My bounty hunter is literally still neutral and suffers absolutely no penalties for being so.

 

Throwing the "This isn't art" statement around is very pretentious and egotistical and you should try to avoid statements like that because it makes you sound ignorant and is offensive to me that anyone feels like they get to define what art is. Videogames are certainly diving headfirst into that category, and if you disagree with me I think at the very least the voice actors would like to have a word with you. Let alone the writers and the art designers.

 

Just because you don't understand this kind of art, doesn't make it not art.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Scoobings

[TyHeaton]

This has to be a troll.

 

There's nothing sexual about Vette's shock collar unless you had sexual thoughts in your head to begin with. Blame yourself for being a deviant.

[Tovenar]

My claims relate to the lack of intelligence or premise to warrant that sort of thing. Also an ESRB rating that fails to acknowledge the deeply rooted gender and torture related issues that present themselves.

 

Yes, the Empire is evil--you volunteer for it. But folks who buy the game expect an experience like the original trilogy, not a product where you're literally guided to make the decision to shock an enslaved, sexualized companion in order to get dark side points for specific gear.

 

Not only that but down the line, you can buy her affection through gifts and have the option of espousing the very same character you've tortured until the sudden materialistic turnaround.

 

It's all a bit disheartening and certainly not something I'd ever want to see my 13 year old playing on a Saturday night. Given the right sort of coverage, the media would have a field day with this.

 

...and no the OPTION to make slightly less evil options does not justify the fact that in a game targeted towards folks as young as 13 you have the option of abusing who is essentially your giddy playmate by electrocuting her repeatedly in between flirting sessions.

 

Because in the trilogy NEVER is slavery or sexual abuse EVER addressed EVER. There are NO SLAVES *cough* Anakin *cough*, No one is EVER ***** *cough* Anakins Mother *cough* No one is EVER SEXUALLY ABUSED *cough* Jabba's Pleasure Palace *cough*.

 

You remember the movies with the twinkle eyed innocence of a 5 year old which I can understand. But the entire star wars universe is full of bigotry. As it should be. Vette's race is a slave race. Period. That's never happened on Earth before! Droids are second class sentient citizens. Period. We totally don't have those here!

 

Before you go summarizing the Extreme Evil aspect of the game, look at it as whole. Does it have the same propensity for GOOD as EVIL? YES. IT. DOES. You whine that Games have a long way to go before they become art, and yet you ridicule a game that equally portrays and gives the ability to players to be either exemplars of shining purity or loathsome evil.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Parali
rude

[Conry]

Its just a game brah....get over it...

[Dryerwulf]

For the most part, I agree with the OP.

 

However, I've been enjoying most of the Sith Warrior storyline only because I am playing a light sided character. That means I have to turn down some quests I don't like.

 

Also, sometimes I am presented with dialog choices where I don't agree with any of them. In that case, I try all the choices (by ESC out of the conversation and trying again) until I find the dialog choice that works best.

 

On the topic of World of Warcraft... For the large part the Horde is not evil, though some of the lore characters display acts of evil. In Star Wars lore, the Sith are evil. The Empire is corrupt.

 

You are playing a character in a role playing game. Make your choices based on the character you are playing. You may find that making a dark choice is not always the most beneficial to the Empire, and your light choices do not always vex your Sith overlords.

 

Also, one thing that would go a long way to alleviate the OP concerns is parental controls. Make controvertial elements unavailable to accounts that do not have the option enabled in parental controls. That would also allow for same gender romances without as much political fallout.

[BlownSi]

I'm not sure you've looked at what the Teen rating is.

 

TEEN

Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

 

Honestly, the things you have complaints about seems to fit fine under this definition. You see Vette get beat or shocked, but it isn't gory violence. It is suggested that there is forced sexual content, but it is not explicitly shown. From the way I take the ESRB rating, the game falls into this category.

 

 

Perfect!....Thank you, I was trying to post this myself...lol.

[Scoobings]

Hello, im glad you posted this, as im feeling the same way.

 

The story was one of the major selling points for me, but after playing every empire class to mid level, i find myself logging in less and less. The mindless violence feels offensive to my intelligence.

 

Now i could play repuplic, but none of my friends seem to want to play there, because they want to feel ******, not like a monk that cries when someone steps on a flower.

 

I find it very disturbing how this game portraits this level of violence as something fun and cool, to 13 year olds.

 

When did mindless violence become cool and acceptable as the norm? Idk, but it seems this is not just a problem in this game.

 

The whole concept of pure evil and pure good never made much sense to me, so i tried to work around that by choosing good options as empire and so on, but it still feels all awkward and often the options dont make much sense. Now i spacebar through basicly everything.

 

Not sure how long this will keep me entertained :/.

 

Excuse spelling mistakes, its not my motherlanguage.

 

In what way does it make it look "Cool"? You have preconceived notions of what "cool" is when you come to the table based on the society you live in and you follow those preconceived notions.

 

If violence for the sake of violence bothers you maybe you shouldn't roll on the side that has class titles such as "Maurader" and "juggernaut" Or "Assassin." Maybe you should roll on the side that has "Guardians" and "sentinels" and stop being such a baby about the game having an evil side.

 

If there was no evil in this game, there would be no conflict and there would be no drama and the game would suck.

[Lundli]

Wait what? I have a lvl 50 Sith Marauder.. when did I get to "sexually abuse" Vette? Being outright nasty and shock her, yes.. but where is the sexual part?

[Shampoo]

ESRB is a private company with loose criteria and apparently sporadic and nonsensical labeling.

 

I've played 17+ games developed by Bioware/EA that don't even come close to the level of gratuitous abuse available here. If torture and sexual violence aren't part of the ESRB criteria for ratings, then I think that's a serious problem.

 

Look, I don't even have kids myself. I'm a 23 year old university student who happens to have his head on straight when it comes to media consumption.

 

My point is not concerning censorship or how a parent polices their kid's computer time--it has more to do with what is advised.

 

The box is misleading, and despite that fact, even if you don't agree with me about the lack of due warning--those scenes are simply not excusable in an intelligent piece of writing. It's gross. I'd venture to guess the public at large would, and will, agree with me.

[Owsley]

I think if you find it morally reprehensible, don't play it. I am a repub player and these options never come up for me. I think bioware did a fantastic job polarizing the feel of each of the factions. and yes, it's your fault for shocking vette so much you are sickened with yourself, perhaps YOU wanted to do and even feel that way afterwards. No one ever said Rp has to be entirely pc and hello kitty island adventure all the time. sometimes you got to bizarre dark parts of the psyche. Remember, it's just a game, and you the player have the power to choose what you want to do.

 

I agree. I took Vett's collar off the first chance I got. I saw some posts complaing that at some point they storyline doesn't progress until the collar comes off and they were complaining that they couldn't romance her as a slave they were torturing. They're some seroius f'ed up people out there and it's not the game's fault.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Owsley

[Ecrulis]

I play a fully DS Sith Marauder If you get in this guys way you are dead plain and simple however If you help him and remain loyal to him you will enjoy power and the security of a Sith watching your back. I forget where the quote came from but "If your ally's fear you they will fight for you, If they love you they will die for you" that I feel is more along the lines of my Sith's thinking. So in terms of Vette specifically I removed her shock collar I'm respectfull to her and treat her as a loyal friend rather than a slave.

 

My point in all this is yes there are options to be a genocidal misogynistic racist psycopath but those options make the more level headed evil much more meaning full

 

Think of it in D&D terms, the option to make Chaotic Evil choices make the selection of Lawful Evil choices that much more fun.

 

Now if only more of the DS options were more along the Lawful Evil lines >.<

[LyriaFrost]

I think it's disturbing that it came through this way, without humor, without appropriate context--feeling trapped into abusing or express passivity toward the obviously sexualized torture of a female companion.

 

I'm more concerned that this made it through QA, ESRB and onto store shelves and through reviewers without a second guess--save for one or two journalists.

 

Later Vette watches as you engage in sexual relations with the widow of a slain enemy of the player character.

 

Again, the issue is more the negligence, the unfair marketing and the passivity of so many folks who allowed the game release in lieu of a story that essentially presents ****. It's way overboard.

 

I'm not talking about game design decisions--I know you can opt out of the worst moral decisions and frankly, I don't care.

 

Take "Ico" for instance, a game also rated Teen by ESRB. I wouldn't want to see a child presented with the option to persistently shock a flirty adult version of Yorda while playing as Ico escorting her out of danger.

 

These options being available should rightfully entail (legalities aside) at the very least, a shift in the ESRB rating and hopefully a rewrite to make the scene remotely intelligent and not just appear disgustingly snuff like.

 

You know ... the more I read these responses from you, it seems like you went out of your way to go AFTER the darker aspects of the sith warrior story, and are then saying "see, this is what it makes you do!"

 

You do realize that you have CHOICES, right? Some of those choices can be dark. Some can be light. My sith warrior has never tortured Vette. She's my friend, my ally, and has my back when things get rough. And if someone tried to hurt her, or called her "just some lowly slave", I'd beat the stuffing out of them. Or just kill them, that's probably easier.

 

Just because you went whole-hog into the dark side of things doesn't mean that's how the entire game is. You CHOSE to make it that way. Bioware simply gave you the option. You're the one who gleefully embraced it, and now seem to be up in arms about what you CHOSE to do.

[BlownSi]

For the most part, I agree with the OP.

 

However, I've been enjoying most of the Sith Warrior storyline only because I am playing a light sided character. That means I have to turn down some quests I don't like.

 

Also, sometimes I am presented with dialog choices where I don't agree with any of them. In that case, I try all the choices (by ESC out of the conversation and trying again) until I find the dialog choice that works best.

 

On the topic of World of Warcraft... For the large part the Horde is not evil, though some of the lore characters display acts of evil. In Star Wars lore, the Sith are evil. The Empire is corrupt.

 

You are playing a character in a role playing game. Make your choices based on the character you are playing. You may find that making a dark choice is not always the most beneficial to the Empire, and your light choices do not always vex your Sith overlords.

 

Also, one thing that would go a long way to alleviate the OP concerns is parental controls. Make controvertial elements unavailable to accounts that do not have the option enabled in parental controls. That would also allow for same gender romances without as much political fallout.

 

 

Why parental controls? The content falls under the current rating properly. If a parent has done their job properly, the child should understand the difference between right and wrong and how to separate a game from reality. The media (games, tv, etc.) are blamed far too often instead of poor parenting. (This last comment is in general and not directed at anyone here.)

Edited February 1, 2012 by BlownSi

[Ugugg]

It depends on the class. The smuggler class story so far has been exceptionally entertaining, witty funny and in some parts shocking.

 

For example, I thought the flirting and then making out (a quest too) and getting 200 affection points was hilarious (and the one liner from companion too.). Then a bit later when you tried you try leave the planet, you get caught!

 

Covnersly, there have been a few moments of "wth" moments when i thought, that probably wasn't necessary.

 

In one particular dialogue, there was an option to punch/kill/forgive. So i chose punch (I have tried the other 2 in other similar quests) and quite shockingly then it was re-enacted with a big right hook. That wasn't really needed. On one side its just a game and its not as bad as killing, but on the other hand, it could easily be taken the wrong way.

 

P.S I had chosen to be dark side ^_^

Edited February 1, 2012 by Ugugg

[Soulchilde]

Surprise, Surprise the Empire and especially the Sith are pretty freaking evil and xenophobic. If you aren’t true Sith , Human or have Sith blood you pretty much irrevelant in the Empire.

 

 

I understand your concern and actually support the idea of neutral (grey), but Bioware at this point hasn't supported this play style

[Limedust]

Maybe true that the content here is technically categorized as Teen, but I think the OP is trying to say that the rating system itself is flawed. You get punched with a mature rating for showing too much side ****, but torture, head-removal, genocide, et al are fit material for anyone over 13. I do happen to think that's a bit of a problem.

[NkSde]

Star Wars: The Old Republic

 

 

Platform: Windows PC

 

Rating: Teen

 

Content descriptors: Blood and Gore, Mild Language, Sexual Themes, Violence

 

Rating summary: In this massively multiplayer online (MMO) role-playing game, based on the Star Wars universe, players engage in a fictional conflict between the Galactic Republic and the Sith Empire. Players can choose from classic Star Wars roles (e.g., Jedi Knight, Bounty Hunter, Trooper) and complete quests to determine their path down the light or dark side of the Force. Players use light sabers, laser blasters, and telekinetic powers to battle a variety of human-like enemies and fantastical creatures (e.g., aliens, cyborgs); battles frequently depict characters getting shot with lasers, slashed with light sabers, or shocked with lightning bolts. During the course of the game, players are presented with interactive cutscenes in which their choices play a vital role in the outcome of their story (e.g., using electrical attacks on restrained characters to collect information; killing someone instead of letting him go). Some sequences depict brief instances of blood and gore: to complete one quest, players must dip a skull in a pool of blood; in another mission, players deliver a severed head to a specific location and place it on a pike. Players can freely explore many areas in the game, including clubs that depict scantily clad female dancers with exposed cleavage; some sequences include dialogue with sexual innuendo (e.g., “An hour. I think I'm insulted. We'll need the whole night,” “I'll be sure to make conjugal visits,” and “Come, dear, let's forgo the nuptials and proceed to the honeymoon.”). The words “damn” and “hell” can be heard in dialogue throughout the game.

 

Online Notice:

Includes online features that may expose players to unrated user-generated content (Windows PC)

 

 

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/synopsis.jsp?Certificate=31564

 

 

for the record, it's not something you have no choice against, therefore it's avoidable content, therefore won't be mentione din ESRB Notes.

 

 

Source: http://www.esrb.org/ratings/search.jsp?title=star+wars&fromHome=fromHome#

[XAsymptote]

Randal: "There was something else going on in Jedi. I never noticed it 'til today. They build another Death Star, Right?"

Dante: "Yeah."

Randal: "Now, the first one was completed and fully operational before the rebels destroyed it."

Dante: "Luke blew it up. Give credit where credit's due."

Randal: "And the second one was still being built when they blew it up."

Dante: "Comliments of Lando Calrissian."

Randal: "Something just never sat right with me that second time around. I could never put my finger on it, but something just wasn't right."

Dante: "And you figured it out."

Randal: "The first Death Star was manned by the Imperial army. The only people on board were Storm troopers, Dignitaries, Imperialists."

Dante: "Basically."

Randal: "So when they blew it up, no problem. Evil's punished."

Dante: "And the second time around?"

Randal: "The second time around it wasn't even done beind built yet. It was still under construction."

Dante: "So?"

Randal: "So, a construction job of that magnitude would require a hell of lot more manpower than the Imperial army had to offer. I'll bet they brought independent contractors in on that thing. Plumbers, aluminum siders, roofers--"

Dante: "Not just Imperialists. Is that what you're getting at?"

Randal: "Exactly. In order to get it built quickly and quietly, they'd hire anybody that could do the job. You think the average Storm Trooper knows how to install a toilet main? All's they know is killing and white uniforms."

Dante: "Alright, so, they bring in independent contractors. Why are you so upset at it's destruction."

Randal: "All those innocent contractors brought in to do the job are killed, casualtios of a war they had nothing to do with. Alright, look, you a roofer. Some juicy government contract comes your way. You got a wife and kids, the two-story in suburbia. This is a government contract which means all sorts of benefits. Along come these left-wing militants who blast everything within a three-mile radius with their lasers. You didn't ask for that; you had no personal politics. You're just trying to scrape out a living."

 

 

OH GOD WHY DID YOU LET YOUR CHILDREN WATCH STAR WARS?! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

[Scoobings]

ESRB is a private company with loose criteria and apparently sporadic and nonsensical labeling.

 

I've played 17+ games developed by Bioware/EA that don't even come close to the level of gratuitous abuse available here. If torture and sexual violence aren't part of the ESRB criteria for ratings, then I think that's a serious problem.

 

Look, I don't even have kids myself. I'm a 23 year old university student who happens to have his head on straight when it comes to media consumption.

 

My point is not concerning censorship or how a parent polices their kid's computer time--it has more to do with what is advised.

 

The box is misleading, and despite that fact, even if you don't agree with me about the lack of due warning--those scenes are simply not excusable in an intelligent piece of writing. It's gross. I'd venture to guess the public at large would, and will, agree with me.

 

It's the styelized univers of the melo-drama sir.

 

"From what I've read you're simply describing the modern "Western" which draws it's roots from a modernizing of a melodrama. Bad guys are exaggerated and so are heroic actions. It's all part of the styelized world of Star Wars, and the Empire has been a focus of the exaggerated "Bad guy" for as long as the series has been around.

 

Don't get me wrong, I get your confusion because of the first three movies because they were VERY different than the last 3 (I'm going by episodic numbers, not release dates.) Lets not forget, however, that most people who are true fans of the Star Wars series hated the first three movies and any person who has taken a class in dramatic lit can point to the dumbing down of it's style. It veered away from the "Epic" tale, and the modern melo-drama and tried to market itself unsuccessfully as a kids movie at the expense of good plot structure (Quick, someone tell me who the protagonist of Phantom Menace was).

 

You're honestly going to sit there and tell me that blowing up an entire planet isn't an exagerated evil? How about things as simple as the way Siths and Darth Vader dress compared to the heroes. All black robes fighting against all brown and white robes?

 

I could literally rant for hours about how everything in the universe is an extreme, and that's what makes it's stylized delivery so appealing to someone who just wants to be evil, or in your case just wants to be good.

 

To wrap up, it's important to also realize that your motivations are your own and why your character makes the choices that you do is entirely up to you. The Lightside/Darkside gear is purely cosmetic and gives no upgrades end game. My bounty hunter is literally still neutral and suffers absolutely no penalties for being so.

 

Throwing the "This isn't art" statement around is very pretentious and egotistical and you should try to avoid statements like that because it makes you sound ignorant and is offensive to me that anyone feels like they get to define what art is. Videogames are certainly diving headfirst into that category, and if you disagree with me I think at the very least the voice actors would like to have a word with you. Let alone the writers and the art designers.

 

Just because you don't understand this kind of art, doesn't make it not art. "

 

My previous post you missed.

[Ste-wan]

Did you read the entirety of the post? How often do you press spacebar? Do you feel there's anything problematic with the way some of the Empire quest lines are handled given it's T for Teen rating?

 

perpetuating age old chauvinistic view of female characters, aiding in slave trades, verifying race purity, sexually abusing a companion who genuinely just wants to help you.

 

Why does it seem like developers go out of there way to make games unfriendly to women? My girlfriend was literally sickened by it

 

--and yes she agreed that under the circumstance of a more intelligent, well developed scene the actions could be made justifiably, but as they stand it's just gross. Certainly worthy of an M rating and not fitting the Pixar vibe you get for the other odd half of the content.

 

But you did choose those options didn't you? Your girlfriend was sickened by the choices you made... It's like a burgular blaming the house owner for not making it harder for them to break in.

[Scoobings]

It depends on the class. The smuggler class story so far has been exceptionally entertaining, witty funny and in some parts shocking.

 

For example, I thought the flirting and then making out (a quest too) and getting 200 affection points was hilarious (and the one liner from companion too.). Then a bit later when you tried you try leave the planet, you get caught!

 

Covnersly, there have been a few moments of "wth" moments when i thought, that probably wasn't necessary.

 

In one particular dialogue, there was an option to punch/kill/forgive. So i chose punch (I have tried the other 2 in other similar quests) and quite shockingly then it was re-enacted with a big right hook. That wasn't really needed. On one side its just a game and its not as bad as killing, but on the other hand, it could easily be taken the wrong way.

 

P.S I had chosen to be dark side ^_^

 

So you want to be darkside, without being evil? I think you're missing the point of the universe and perhaps should lighten up a little bit (both in alignment and outlook on the world).

[SabinDeus]

For what it's worth, OP, I agree with you. Seeing all the stuff it was possible to do to Vette made me decide never to play Empire. It's just sickening.

[neir]

Star Wars: The Old Republic

 

 

Platform: Windows PC

 

Rating: Teen

 

Content descriptors: Blood and Gore, Mild Language, Sexual Themes, Violence

 

Rating summary: In this massively multiplayer online (MMO) role-playing game, based on the Star Wars universe, players engage in a fictional conflict between the Galactic Republic and the Sith Empire. Players can choose from classic Star Wars roles (e.g., Jedi Knight, Bounty Hunter, Trooper) and complete quests to determine their path down the light or dark side of the Force. Players use light sabers, laser blasters, and telekinetic powers to battle a variety of human-like enemies and fantastical creatures (e.g., aliens, cyborgs); battles frequently depict characters getting shot with lasers, slashed with light sabers, or shocked with lightning bolts. During the course of the game, players are presented with interactive cutscenes in which their choices play a vital role in the outcome of their story (e.g., using electrical attacks on restrained characters to collect information; killing someone instead of letting him go). Some sequences depict brief instances of blood and gore: to complete one quest, players must dip a skull in a pool of blood; in another mission, players deliver a severed head to a specific location and place it on a pike. Players can freely explore many areas in the game, including clubs that depict scantily clad female dancers with exposed cleavage; some sequences include dialogue with sexual innuendo (e.g., “An hour. I think I'm insulted. We'll need the whole night,” “I'll be sure to make conjugal visits,” and “Come, dear, let's forgo the nuptials and proceed to the honeymoon.”). The words “damn” and “hell” can be heard in dialogue throughout the game.

 

Online Notice:

Includes online features that may expose players to unrated user-generated content (Windows PC)

 

 

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/synopsis.jsp?Certificate=31564

 

 

for the record, it's not something you have no choice against, therefore it's avoidable content, therefore won't be mentione din ESRB Notes.

 

 

Source: http://www.esrb.org/ratings/search.jsp?title=star+wars&fromHome=fromHome#

 

well that ends the misleading rating thing right there