Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[lightmentor]

You are all arguing the old philosophical dispute between "what is good/moral" and "what is evil/immoral". It isn't going to be solved in this thread, this game, or this or any other past, present, or future human societal structure. /futile

 

Yet, Bioware has published a "game" where that basic conflict is an integral part of the "game".

 

All aspects of adult and-near adult life are a set of choices and the consequences of those choices. Thus, only you can choose for you and only you can bear the final consequences of your choices.

 

If, when you arrive at the point where you have to bear the consequences of your own choices, and you cannot bear those consequences, then clearly, for you, you've made the wrong choices.

 

The questions are, and these are really the only questions that matter: can you learn from the positive or negative consequences of the choices that you and others you've observed have made? And, can you modify your behavior as a result?

 

The OP and his supporters, and those posting who don't accept his premises, are all making choices in the "protected" environment of this game and the internet. Each of you is choosing, and the consequences in real-life will follow. They always do; sooner or later. Enjoy the consequences.

[Shampoo]

It's also rather disconcerting that words like "fart" and "gay" are filtered by Bioware's system to save us from the evils of flatulence and expressing elation or sexual orientation but the game lacks a filter to avoid witnessing the option of sexualized torture.

 

Classy stuff.

[osuaaron]

Well, from what I recall, after removing her collar you basically say "It's you and me against the universe". She kind of goes "aheh...uh...okay". So she's not entirely convinced that you're a nice person yet, so asking if you'll let her go might be pushing it, at least from her point of view. I can see why she wouldn't, immediately, since you being nice to her MIGHT just be an act, after all, and asking to leave might get the collar slapped on again, or worse.

 

...

 

(I just abbreviated it because it was long. )

 

The concept of a "good Sith" is a very long stretch and I'm honestly fascinated that Bioware went there. I, too, have a "good Sith" believe it or not. She is an assassin however. What I find in most of the quest dialogue is .. how can I explain this. She is more of an actress playing a role rather than actually good. It's like she's just "acting" good. But as soon as you select anything but the rainbow pony option, she's balling her fist and saying how much she "can't wait to crush the hopes and dreams of those children" or whatever such thing in an evil, menacing tone.

 

Bioware probably should have worked a little harder on this concept, since it is obviously a completely new one. Anyway, yes broad tangent. The bottom line is the game is written for a demographic a bit lower than your average person that watched Star Wars when it was originally released, and its creating some tension.

[Mxconway]

You're missing my point entirely. I'm trying to say that it's not justifiable or contributing to the story in any way to have that option.

 

 

I digress--the issue at hand here is primarily a marketing one. The fact that EA, Bioware and ESRB let something come through with a Teen rating, marketed at a younger audience that contains intense sexual violence.

 

 

Where is the intense sexual violence located in the SW storyline? My 50 Jug is female and my [male] Mara is only level 20. I didn't run into anything sexual in my first play through, so I'm curious what you are referring to.

 

edit: Read more of the thread, I see just trolling.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Mxconway

[Vaegaknight]

It's also rather disconcerting that words like "fart" and "gay" are filtered by Bioware's system to save us from the evils of flatulence and expressing elation or sexual orientation but the game lacks a filter to avoid witnessing the option of sexualized torture.

 

Classy stuff.

 

There are no words...

 

This is what makes me not sure if troll.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Vaegaknight

[Red_Cruiser]

I don't care if this how they want to tell the story in their game, but it's treated in lightweight and casual manner, it would have been better left out of the game. I mean, we all know how serious the consequences are in this game after all. :/

[AmedusTOR]

However, my journalist peers and I aren't going to hush up because of the same old argument that the element of "decision" rationalizes the inclusion of sexualized torture.

 

The fact that a character can choose the lesser of two evils doesn't make the poorly constructed and hateful scenario disappear.

 

It's Star Wars. It's violent. It's sexual. The Empire is a cruel fascist dictatorship. I understand all of this. I also understand that your character can treat Vette with at least a moderate amount of human decency.

 

Those arguments do nothing in the way of disproving my point that the inclusion of this type of material and failure of ESRB and EA to provide intelligent commentary or due warning..

 

I'm not going to call you a troll, but this honestly seems to be the makings of a mountain out of a mole hill. I played the same storyline as you and got exactly what I expected; a fascist, murderous dictatorship bent on conquest. I didn't find any "sexualized torture" or anything that would really make me say or think "hey, this is pretty extreme for a teen game".

 

But hey, some people are more sensitive than others I suppose. Or perhaps you're just trying to stir up a proverbial hornets nest about an issue you've decided needed to be created. I don't know. Personally, I think you're looking far too deeply into this all, and this thread is the result of overthinking and unnecessarily complicating matters.

[cruellae]

It's also rather disconcerting that words like "fart" and "gay" are filtered by Bioware's system to save us from the evils of flatulence and expressing elation or sexual orientation but the game lacks a filter to avoid witnessing the option of sexualized torture.

 

There is a filter. You don't HAVE TO torture Vette, as has been re-iterated several times in this thread. The dialog option clearly states what is going to happen.

 

Perhaps the rating is a bit low, I certainly wouldn't let my little brother play this game. I wouldn't let him watch The Dark Knight either, and I firmly believe that movie was art of the highest caliber.

 

Bad things happen in the world. Art mirrors life. It is completely okay if you don't want to be exposed to those things--many people have finely tuned sensitivities that make witnessing such things difficult for them. I would suggest you move on to the Republic side of the equation.

 

As for there being no commentary on the type of violence and torture that happens in the Sith Empire--there is. It is called CHOICE.

 

If you could not choose to be bad, then how moral is it, really, that you decide to be good? Take away the evil choices from TOR and you are left with Aesop's Fables--telling you what to do rather than offering a moral decision.

 

tl;dr You may not like it. That doesn't make it a failure.

[SWImara]

It's an issue I care about. I don't like the idea that kids are being exposed to media which doesn't add any significance or meaningful dialogue to something like an abusive relationship with a slave woman.

 

...again, it's easy to shove these things under the rug. Sure, we could keep reading and posting in threads about Illum incorrectly posted into general, but I'm not going to throw in the towel because you find the issue of little significance.

It is not just that people find the issue of little significance, have many people posted that here? People disagree with you, there's a big difference.

 

Here is a bit of recognized important Western literature, saying some pretty atrocious things regarding gender roles. Trust me, if the storyline in SWTOR offends you, much of what your kids are reading (or at least should be reading) in highschool, or middle school for that matter likely should offend you as well.

 

Teen rated game, Wal-Mart shelves, no carding, parents shopping based on ESRB. These are arguments that I understand you may want me to take somewhere else.

 

However, my journalist peers and I aren't going to hush up because of the same old argument that the element of "decision" rationalizes the inclusion of sexualized torture.

No, your journalist peers are going to make a grandiose deal about it in a bit of hyperbolic and probably not well reasoned writing drawing attention from those who disagree with you in hopes of getting people to pay attention. Being a journalist really doesn't mean anything lately (if it ever did) as far as validating the legitimacy of one's opinions.

 

The fact that a character can choose the lesser of two evils doesn't make the poorly constructed and hateful scenario disappear.

 

It's Star Wars. It's violent. It's sexual. The Empire is a cruel fascist dictatorship. I understand all of this. I also understand that your character can treat Vette with at least a moderate amount of human decency.

 

Those arguments do nothing in the way of disproving my point that the inclusion of this type of material and failure of ESRB and EA to provide intelligent commentary or due warning.

 

It's still an issue to me--and to many others. I'm not alone here. I write for a gaming publication that I cannot divulge on a public forum, but I think these are important topics which the discerning public deserves to see before making the decision to purchase this as a gift or even for themselves.

I think that the violence presented in games like MW3 (just to name one) would be a much more valid concern. Yes sexual violence is negative but any of it that does exist in this game is heavily alluded to and purely an issue of (rotten) choices. Our national comfort with trivializing graphic violence on the other hand seems pretty deserving of attention in contrast. It is somehow less acceptable in our country to portray violence in the news (ie real violence) than it is to do in a PG-13 movie.

 

Not to mention I know for a fact Bioware developers read these boards--and I won't let go of the idea that perhaps they'll reconsider the decision they've made to so lightly tread upon a topic like a flirtatious and abusive relationship with a slave.

 

I can only hope proper context is added next time and that if this type of content remains, that people aren't being deceived. Thirteen year olds in this day and age spend a lot of time at the computer unsupervised--it's just the unfortunate reality of the world. Not every parent is ideal and accurate product representation and intelligent dialogue could potentially avert exposure to scenes that make a joke of sexual violence.

They spend an awful lot of time watching television as well. You have to pay for video games, a monthly fee as a matter of fact. This is in a way comparable to cable television, I assure you any child has access to materials much more negative on cable television than they are likely to find in this game.

[Asuka]

Warcraft was centered more towards the younger crowd, always was. Humans fighting orcs, standard fantasy norm. SWTOR goes the extra mile to show you the brutality of the Empire and in many cases it does the same to show that the Republic is not that much different from the Empire. Jedi claim to be guardians of peace but it's the beauraucrats that run the show. The Empire basically serves as a Sith puppet and is as brutal as the Sith want them to be.

[Yfelsung]

The OP's entire premise is false.

 

I have pretty much bathed in violent media since I was a very young child. Violent films, tv, music, games. I'd seen every Friday the 13th by the time I was like 9.

 

I am a productive member of society with no criminal record who pays my taxes, goes to work and is generally happy.

 

Well, you know, as happy as can be in this **** hole of a planet, but the planet being a ball of **** has little to do with my upbringing.

 

If I turned out fine, the violence isn't the problem.

[Shampoo]

@previous poster whom this may concern

 

Why does gender preference or identification matter again?

 

Abusing Vette as a female is no different. The same problems of glossed over sexual and physical abuse present themselves. She is your loyal bubbly, powerless slave should you chose.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Shampoo

[ItanyaBlade]

Propose this to a scholar at any institution of higher learning. Hell, show your mother, your girlfriend, sister or even neighbor.

 

Have you lived your life believing there's no sexuality involved in caging or shocking someone as they writhe and gasp for breath? It sounds crass, but this is how the media is seeing it. This is how any person of reason is seeing it.

 

Vette is presented in a sexual way. With all due respect, it seems the delusion presides within the confines of your own limited knowledge of human sexuality.

 

I am completely confused by this statement.

 

You keep saying that everything to do with Vette is sexual and I have never seen it that way ever. (Consider me your mother or your sister or whatever)

 

And no, I do not believe that slavery or imprisonment is strictly about sexuality. I do not see how you can make that connection. What precisely do you mean when you say that Vette is presented in a sexual way?

[SableShadow]

However, my journalist peers and I

 

I write for a gaming publication that I cannot divulge on a public forum,

 

These kinds of statements make it hard for me to take you seriously, regardless of the any merit your argument might have.

[Noyjitat]

T for teen is just a suggested rating of the game. Its up the parents in the end to make the choice. As for sexual violence you don't really even see anything since it goes to a black screen. All you get is the characters reactions afterwards or before the screen.

 

This game is pretty mild compared to alot of other t rated games.

[Vaegaknight]

These kinds of statements make it hard for me to take you seriously, regardless of the any merit your argument might have.

 

And either way, it doesn't make what he's trying to say or his opinions any more valid than what anyone else has to say. -_-

[osuaaron]

And yet, Vette still stays. Apparently you've not been paying attention here.

 

She stays, because the dynamics of the relationship changes if you treat her well . You still assert the dominance aspect, and she (can) interpret(s) that as a surrogate fatherly figure, and admits to that via cut scenes as she talks about her background.

 

The definition of slave goes beyond to what most people consider. It is not always about whips, chains and poor living conditions as it is so often portrayed. A slave can also be seen as a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. How an individual treats said person is the choice of that individual, which is what we have here in "Bioland".

 

Yes - Vette still says, and Hawke's mother was randomly turned into Frankenstein. Because it happened doesn't mean it's not horrific writing and a completely inconceivable teen drama.

 

I really have no problem whatsoever with the storyline. I have a problem with folks who think this is Pulitzer level stuff and completely justified.

 

I should clarify my previous statement - "one" does not control a slave through fear. A "Sith" certainly does.

 

"The Galactic Empire is described in various Star Wars media as a brutal dictatorship, one based on "tyranny, hatred of nonhumans, brutal and lethal force, and, above all else, constant fear." - Vision of the Future

 

Someone should tell the Empire about their recent rash of flower growing, sunshine loving, freedom-embracing Sith running around. I imagine they would have a problem with it.

Edited February 1, 2012 by osuaaron

[Palewind]

It's a game. With evil characters who are supposed to do evil stuff to qualify as evil. I'm really sorry, but there are too many bastions of political correctness in this universe. The OP has too much free time/too many insecurities.

[YeesBox]

Dunno about you but I saw the OT when I was maybe 8 or so, and thinking back on it I wouldn't have any problems with 8 yos watching it now. Seen stuff labeled T that's much more politically incorrect than Star Wars or TOR.

 

The only thing that even remotely makes me think there's something more to the plot than typical good fights evil and saves the day is the fact that the Republic actually does some stuff as well that's slightly incorrect.

[Boldfury]

It's also rather disconcerting that words like "fart" and "gay" are filtered by Bioware's system to save us from the evils of flatulence and expressing elation or sexual orientation but the game lacks a filter to avoid witnessing the option of sexualized torture.

 

Classy stuff.

 

So, you chose the dark side options over the light side options. But, somehow you think Bioware isn't classy for giving you the options? Post like these are why people think you are trolling.

[Sunstarr]

 

Someone should tell the Empire about their recent rash of flower growing, sunshine loving, freedom-embracing Sith running around. I imagine they would have a problem with it.

 

My sith warrior will get right on that.

 

And I will have Vette dressed in the popular metal bikini to distract while she double guns. she's such a "daddy's girl."

 

In other news, OP still has not been able to provide outside sources to back claims of professional writers who are all a jitter about something...

[Ecrulis]

The OP's entire premise is false.

 

I have pretty much bathed in violent media since I was a very young child. Violent films, tv, music, games. I'd seen every Friday the 13th by the time I was like 9.

 

I am a productive member of society with no criminal record who pays my taxes, goes to work and is generally happy.

 

Well, you know, as happy as can be in this **** hole of a planet, but the planet being a ball of **** has little to do with my upbringing.

 

If I turned out fine, the violence isn't the problem.

 

Also this, I grew up on every violent slasher movie, hell my favorite movie at 2 was Night of the Living Dead, I have gratuated college, now have a full time job, will hopefully have an apartment within the next few months, and need to start planning on how I will propose to my Girlfriend in June. You know why I can look at, and could at 13, games with choices like this and not try to emulate it in public? Because I was raised well and If I ever behaved violently towards other kids in school I was severely punished. I swear its as if parents these days want the government to raise their kids for them.

 

EDIT: apparently I suck at typing XD

Edited February 1, 2012 by Ecrulis

[NikonNikkor]

This shows that story tellers are no longer able to create stories based upon the characters they want to. What it says is that they must adhere to YOUR level of sensibility instead of creating an accurate portrayal of the characters in the story.

 

So basically, instead of creating an accurate storyline, we should adhere to your bigoted and chauvinistic viewpoint on how things should be?

 

Accuracy is better than censorship and a watered down piece of crap.

 

Did you read the entirety of the post? How often do you press spacebar? Do you feel there's anything problematic with the way some of the Empire quest lines are handled given it's T for Teen rating?

 

perpetuating age old chauvinistic view of female characters, aiding in slave trades, verifying race purity, sexually abusing a companion who genuinely just wants to help you.

 

Why does it seem like developers go out of there way to make games unfriendly to women? My girlfriend was literally sickened by it

 

--and yes she agreed that under the circumstance of a more intelligent, well developed scene the actions could be made justifiably, but as they stand it's just gross. Certainly worthy of an M rating and not fitting the Pixar vibe you get for the other odd half of the content.

[LyriaFrost]

(I just abbreviated it because it was long. )

 

Yeah, I tend to get a bit wordy at times.

 

The concept of a "good Sith" is a very long stretch and I'm honestly fascinated that Bioware went there. I, too, have a "good Sith" believe it or not. She is an assassin however. What I find in most of the quest dialogue is .. how can I explain this. She is more of an actress playing a role rather than actually good. It's like she's just "acting" good. But as soon as you select anything but the rainbow pony option, she's balling her fist and saying how much she "can't wait to crush the hopes and dreams of those children" or whatever such thing in an evil, menacing tone.

 

It's a bit of a stretch given the TYPICAL sith portrayed in the movies, where they're all psychotic mass-murderers. But also, there are quests in the game that point out why there may be all sorts of people who end up as sith. They're dragging in ANYONE who's force-sensitive and pushing them through Korriban. You don't have to be completely amoral and ruthless to survive there (but it helps), just intelligent and dedicated, and willing to do what it takes to survive/succeed.

 

And yeah, a lot of it the dialogue kind of expects you to be over-the-top evil. I just explain it in my head for my sorceress as getting caught up in her "role" that she's trying to play. What's expected of her. If she could defect to the Republic, she would in a heartbeat.

 

Bioware probably should have worked a little harder on this concept, since it is obviously a completely new one. Anyway, yes broad tangent. The bottom line is the game is written for a demographic a bit lower than your average person that watched Star Wars when it was originally released, and its creating some tension.

 

Probably. I like the idea of the "light side sith", which is fun to play around with. Heck, there's actually a sith lord in one of the jedi knight quests who you can recruit over to the light side. He's all about personal honor, and after you defeat him, you can convince him that true power comes from the light, not from hatred and fear. He decides to go talk to some jedi about it, and see about defecting. It's kind of cool.

 

What would be really cool is if at some point they allowed for 'defectors'. I can see how it would be really hard to work within the confines of the class stories, though.

[pjskull]

Video Games is just one variable in the equation. There is more to it than simply blaming one form of media. To only say movies, music, games or anything as stand alone is false. But to deny that any will have effect on us is wrong.

 

Still silly. You said that video games would cause teens to commit bum killings.

 

Of course media impacts us, as do parents, teachers, the people on the bus...

 

You said video games would cause teens to kill bums.

 

Please go tell the nearest person you can see and say, "I think video games cause teens to kill bums." Better yet, bring it up in your next job interview.

 

Admit it, it was a silly, unintelligent thing to say...